Acupuncture and TCVM for pain and what else?

    • Gold Top Dog

    The third picture looking left to right is a yuca plant (in your link).  The pics of the spiky leafed plant with large clusters of white flowers is a yucca. As I said, they are often confused even by the people who are selling the supplements.  lol

    • Gold Top Dog

    In honesty I've never before seen nor heard it referred to as "yuca". 

    • Gold Top Dog

     Made a trip to the supermarket, simply says tapioca. I'll go to another grocers to make sure I get it right, AND try to find the supplement as well or I will call Dr S if she has some. She carries supplements from nature's sunshine, that's where she got me the thyroid activator. She's been giving Alphie tumeric painkillers, some anaglestic (sp) painkiller. See what she says. Meanwhile I'll add some bok choy to their vege.

    Off topic question. would it be too much if I only give carrots, pumpkin and celery in their daily veg? I prepare it a week beforehand and puree them and freeze them into daily portions. Will this cause vitamin A toxicity?

    • Gold Top Dog

     Just wanted to update that Alphie is doing alot better during walks.. She drags me and is raring to go (with me holding on the my bad back being dragged), I'm confident the acupuncture is working on her pain issues. Ashton is more hyper at home, he jumps on me, behaves like a 2 mth old, and just wants to go out all the time, but when we're out, he's more interested in growling at the neighbor's dog and then he lags behind at the walk. No stumbling today though. We are going on to acupuncture every other week, I hope they keep well till then.

    Please pray for no bad news on monday when we get their ultrasound done.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee debbie

    Off topic question. would it be too much if I only give carrots, pumpkin and celery in their daily veg? I prepare it a week beforehand and puree them and freeze them into daily portions. Will this cause vitamin A toxicity?

    It would be way better to vary the veggies more than that.  I almost never give carrots because they have a sucky cal/phos ratio.  SOME pumpkin is ok but it may make stool loose -- or constipate them so watch how much you give.  Vary your veg a whole lot more than that if possible -- leafy greens, cruciates like broccoli, cauliflower, cabbages

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    Sabine as recommended celery, sweet potatoes, broccoli and green beans and some meat for Alphie. I've asked her if there are other variations of veg for her. So far I think acupuncture and Chinese meds have helped Alphie, she's jumping, trotting, swaying her lady bum during walks. Now just gotta work on getting the weight off. Ashton's not showing much improvement though, or maybe he never showed his pain anyway. He's still slow during walks, stumbling at times and lagging behind I get so scared when he gets slower than me. I hope he'll improve soon. I've ordered the yucca root supplement, might start little by little but I'll speak to the vet tomorrow. Tomorrow's the ultrasound... Pls pray for us.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee debbie
    . Now just gotta work on getting the weight off. Ashton's not showing much improvement though, or maybe he never showed his pain anyway. He's still slow during walks, stumbling at times and lagging behind I get so scared when he gets slower than me. I hope he'll improve soon. I've ordered the yucca root supplement, might start little by little but I'll speak to the vet tomorrow. Tomorrow's the ultrasound... Pls pray for us.

    Debbie -- P{LEASE **stop** for him.  You have to understand how arthritis works.  When there is almost no (or 'none';) cartilage and bone rubs on bone it causes the actual bone itself to get inflamed.  You must have *some* exercise (or you get so stiff you can't move) but it needs to be kept to **VERY** short increments.  Then stop.  Then go.  A whole "walk" start to finish would be excruciating. 

     Let him walk -- and then stop and **stand** (or even lie down -- "sit" is usually extremely painful for arthritic dogs).  Then you go further.  My self?  I can sometimes go maybe 100 feet.  Then I have to stop (for me, I usually have to 'bend over' to relieve some of the stress on the low back).  Then I go again.  I can go a long distance **IF** I can stop periodically to relieve the burn.

    This enables that joint to sort of 'breathe' and the pain to pass.  This is how you get exercise but you minimize the DAMAGE that a walk can do.  See if that bone continues to get more and more and more inflamed bits of the bone actually crumble which is even more painful.  He won't *ask* you to stop -- you have to notice this yourself.  If he stumbles?  You need to STOP.  Literally for maybe 2 minutes.  Then go again.

    His walks need to be MUCH shorter.  I wouldn't walk them at the same time.  Walking him up and down in front of your door is SUFFICIENT.  Don't make him "not catch up to you"--- it's too far, Debbie.  Exercise for arthritis is only beneficial if it doesn't worsen the arthritic condition.  The fact that he lags behind ... that he stumbles -- you're asking him to go TOO far.

    And don't expect him to 'get better'.  Debbie -- arthritis is for life.  It's part of aging.  As the body degrades with age you don't somehow get "cured" (if we could do that everyone would live to be 200) or get better. 

     You **can** lessen the pain.  But you have to stay within those limits or you will be right back INTO problems again.  Part of "maintenance" with arthritis is not pushing beyond what the body can comfortably do.  Once you go beyond that you are actually worsening the problem -- you're causing more inflammation and more deterioration of the joint.

    Before you move from the house.  BEFORE you even put the leash on him just plain pet him.  Be casual.  But notice the scruff of his neck -- just sort of ruffle the scruff in affection and notice the tension of that skin **at rest**.  REMEMBER how that feels.

    Then -- as soon as you get out of the house to the street -- ruffle the scruff again.  It's going to be more tense.  He's a bit excited but just getting outside will cause pain.  Then ... go maybe 50 feet more.  (I said FIFTY -- not five hundred or 3 blocks)  Feel his neck again. 

     That skin will tighten when he is in pain.  BEFORE that becomes rock solid you need to turn around!!  Remember -- as far as you go, you MUST get back.  His walk should ***END*** before he stumbles.  If he stumbles it's because he's in so much pain he nearly can't control where he puts his feet. 

    You can always walk him back and forth in front of your house.  Walks are NOT holy.  We put so much emphasis today on "exercise" but for the arthritic person or beast it can go from constructive to DE-structive in a couple of heartbeats. 

    When he stumbles.  When he slows down -- he is telling you something.  It's easier for me to crawl inside his skin because I've lived it my entire life.  But I **DO** stay on my feet.  I'm only 57 years old but I have a rollator.  And for about 15 years I've carried a folding chair or two in my car every single day.  So that if I have to go in somewhere to pay a bill I can stop and sit when I hurt.  Pride?  I have none -- except for the fact that I"m pretty proud that I can still walk.  I haven't given up yet to just sit in a wheelchair because I know that will shorten my life. 

    Now there are times when I yield to the wheelchair.  When my husband wants to go somewhere and do something and I know me lagging behind will diminish his fun?  Then I 'ride'. 

    Don't expect him to get "better".  He won't.  But you can manage his pain so he can **continue** with the things he does.  You can keep the arthritis from worsening.  Getting the weight down will help that (and it's hard to DO that without a lot of exercise). 

    Give him things at home (things like a stuffed Kong or a stuffed marrow bone that he has to work on and exert strength even while lying down to accomplish) that help exercise him.  Even just taking a few kibbles -- toss them 5-10 feet away so he has to walk over to get it TO eat it -- THAT is exercise for this dog.  You may have to separate them so she and he don't get in each other's faces -- but that's do-able.

    Part of this is living with an older animal.  And if you, yourself, have never dealt with arthritis on a personal level it's difficult to understand.  That's what I'm good at -- I can put in words how HE feels because I've been there.  My husband learned LONG ago when we were first married (15 years ago) that making me stop (and sometimes I DO **NOT** want to stop!!) is prudent.  Sometimes all I *want* to do is GET there.  Sometimes I need to be reminded I *must* stop.  and I'm supposed to be the thinking, reasoning human who can determine what is best for me?  Nope -- sometimes I, too, get stubborn.  (i know tough to imagine, huh?? Embarrassed)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Callie, I know, which is why we take slow slow walks. BUT I'm concerned now, that this exercise intolerance is due to laryngeal paralysis... According to some information, his muscles will be wasting and his hinds will give way. I can't really understand the whole thing now, but it's terribly distressing, he was able to walk alot more months ago even with the joint issues there during that time, and now he gets tired 3 minutes after we're out of the house. I don't know if acupuncture can help with this disease and I'll try to avoid surgery.

    I had an orthopedic vet take a look at him, and other than a spinal portion sensitivity, his joints are ok.. well not brand new-ok, arthritis is there for sure, but it's not too bad according to the vet. Supportive care would do for his arthritis, but for this new problem, I don't know, I'm so new to this, it's scary. Bad news thrown to me wave after wave. 

    Now we take very very slow walks, but when they get excited, especially when they see other dogs, they bark and go a little nuts. I'll try feeling his scruff, I know his hair stands up there when he sees other dogs, and I can't exactly control that, we have dogs all over the neighborhood and all are territorial, no peace at all. I tried walking in the house and have them follow me, two laps and they'll just look at me silly.. "if she's walking back, why bother following her"... I've scheduled a cardio ultrasound for Ashton 2 weeks time, I just NEED to know he's doing ok with every other organ but right now, this brand new issue, though caught early will still be progressive, and last thing I want to see is a suffocating dog when I'm not at home.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Can acupuncture improve heart function for congenital aortic stenosis and all the heart issues my pups have? I really wanna know. I'm committing to acupuncture for arthritis and joint pains and really hope to alleviate the horrid effects of heart problems and LP as well. I've read acupuncture can treat a range of diseases and make symptoms go away. When I'm at the vet, they just go about doing their stuff and I will just go  "ok..." not really knowing what else to ask or say. Can ALL the issues be covered with each acupuncture sessions? Or do I need to go in for arthritis one day, heart one day, LP one day...
    • Gold Top Dog

    Acupuncture won't totally "cure" any of it but it will help **all** of it be managed.   Acupuncture really helps with heart issues, mostly because a lot of these "heart" issues are actually caused by imbalances elsewhere in the body. 

    Talk to the TCVM vet about specifics and ask them if there is ever acupressure *you* can do at home (just with the tip of your finger) to help any of this.

    There are also herbs -- and your TCVM vet should have access to individual oriental herbs as well.  But there are herbs to help heart function just like some of our "western" herbs -- some of them have been around for millenia.

    Debbie -- again I'm going to caution you not to freak out.  They are aging.  These things DO advance with age.  But calmly managing them, will help Ashton and Alphie more than anything else.  The tendency is when you get some huge NAME like "laryngeal paralysis" (which is common in goldens by the way) and you think "BIG HUGE FATAL DISEASE" is often simply something that has long been considered part of aging.  Even senior humans are more at risk of choking or or not getting their breath as they exercise.  Don't let yourself get super scared just because you now have a scarey label for something -- and something, in particular, that you can't do a whole lot about other than use caution and not do things to exacerbate it. 

    So you alter how you do things -- and yes, even acupuncture should help keep the flexibility of those tissues better.  Not letting him hurry as he eats (put some huge toys or balls in his dish to slow him down) or even elevating the bowl will help cope with the swallowing issues.

    You've stopped using collars right?  You've gone to harnesses instead? 

    I know you've recently had some problems with aggression with them while on leash -- so trying to stop that has perhaps worsened the LP.  So as I said -- you will need to take far far shorter walks and often simply stay around home where there are no other dogs to ramp them up.  At this point it is a health maintenance issue. 

    Make sense? 

    Lee debbie
    Can ALL the issues be covered with each acupuncture sessions? Or do I need to go in for arthritis one day, heart one day, LP one day...

    If you haven't you need to read "Four Paws Five Directions" by Dr. Cheryl Schwartz -- that will help you understand the "how".   Those needles are all placed in various points around the body for various things (not just put a needle HERE because it hurts -- it's far deeper in theory than that).  ASK the vet -- "please explain to me the different points you are choosing and why ... and are there points that I can massage with acupressure to help?"

    There is a point under the chin just above the breastbone -- take your index finger and find the top of the breastbone.  Literally push the tip of your finger into the "hole"' there at the top of that bony protrusion.  When you get your finger in there to the first knuckle bend your finger so the tip of your finger is over the top of that breastbone. 

    NEXT TIME he coughs push your finger in there and hold over the top of that bony place just to the count of 3 or 4 -- that pushes the Qi down away from the throat. 

    There are other things like that -- ASK the vet.

    • Gold Top Dog

     That's really very interesting, I'm getting that book! Yes, I've stopped using collars though I keep them on for ID, but put them on the harness when they are leashed. The vet (and I) always forget by the end of the session about massage and acupressure because we're usually busy picking up dropped needles and finishing it off with a B12 jab. I need to remember this on tuesday.

    The vet did mention that their heart condition are not serious but could progress, especially with Ashton showing symptoms at this time, I hope to deal with this with his meds and acupuncture. 

    I know they are aging, just wish that this was a slower and more gradual process than suddenly stumbling and showing lethargy, makes it seem very acute. 

    I also wish I had more experience and a cooler head...

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee debbie
    I also wish I had more experience and a cooler head...

    You're getting the opportunity to develop both. 

    I suspect because you've jumped in with so many tests and a LOT of vetting, they are pretty well dumping information on you with a lot of long names -- that helps justify to themselves that they got results.  But you need information you can use.

    Don't just look online for your information -- BOOKS a hugely helpful.  Merck's vetineray manual is online and even Merrian-Webster's online dictionary has a medical dictionary as part of it.  \

     At this point you have to put ALL this information together with the fact that they are older dogs.

    Things always change after you lose one in a pack.  Health stuff can also change.   In this case, I suspect some of this was definitely exacerbated by the fact that Axl was your "alpha" -- in spirit if not in truth -- and with that presence removed Ashton and Alphie have been overly-eager to forge ahead with more than they could.  Pulling on leash??  That's gonna exacerbath BOTH heart and throat issues.  But senior issues tend to go like this -- when one thing happens you find four ... because they are so stoic, and as long as they can hide a thing they will.  My guess is  that now that Ashton has been so difficult on leash he's worsened his own troubles in a big way.  A sedate walk is one thing -- he's expending most of his energy  in just getting out the door .... and once the heart is insufficient the rest is a big follow-on because of the expenditure of energy is so different. 

    The good thing is you now have names of things to look up and ask about.  But don't let the big words totally tharow you.  Exfoliation sounds deadly -- and it just means dead skin coming off.  It's NORMAL but it **sounds** bad.  Does that make sense.  Some of what's going on with the heart is normal aging stuff -- you can do things to maintain them, but sometimes having a 'name' makes them overwhelming.

    Also -- Jackie posted this in another thread -- it's a Whole Dog Journal article about sudden tension between two packmates -- darned good article -- Thank you Jackie!!

    http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_4/features/Dog-Fighting-Behavior-Aggression_16214-1.html

    • Gold Top Dog

     OOhh i really hope this aggression doesn't surface. So far they have been ok, the feeding is separate, no toys when together etc.

    We went for our appt with my first Japanese vet because Dr L had injured her back and made a courtesy call to inform me she might not be able to continue on plus she'll be on maternity leave (4 mths) in 2 months time. And at this time, Dr S just got back from an IVAS training. She still doesn't do electroacupuncture OR aquapuncture, and she's gonna be ordering some herbs from Jing Tang for their heart and Qi. I'm slowly trying to let go of the anxiety learning of the new conditions, but keeping close watch especially on Ashton with vetmedin. She's taught me how to do the moxa thing on Ashton (darn tough with so much fur!).

    Ashton's been tugging on his harness, and vet says that doesn't hit the larynx, but not sure about his excitement being too much for the heart. We will monitor in a month if the vetmedin is working. I just hate it how he has *quite* suddenly slowed down. 

    When the vet doesn't seem to concerned, it appears that I should too.. just last sunday after a bath, I noticed a bleeding next to Ashton's eye, so i cleaned it and saw a little elongated flesh. It bled again. Vet said it was a skin tag, but no idea why it's bleeding. I have to watch it doesn't grow.  And, he suddenly has rust-colored tear stains - some allergy OR disease. I have been trying to take it a little slow with them, especially with my son having a high fever and loads of phlegm since Sunday. Just praying that I won't be in for a tough bumpy ride in months to come.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lee debbie

    We went for our appt with my first Japanese vet because Dr L had injured her back and made a courtesy call to inform me she might not be able to continue on plus she'll be on maternity leave (4 mths) in 2 months time. And at this time, Dr S just got back from an IVAS training. She still doesn't do electroacupuncture OR aquapuncture, and she's gonna be ordering some herbs from Jing Tang for their heart and Qi. I'm slowly trying to let go of the anxiety learning of the new conditions, but keeping close watch especially on Ashton with vetmedin. She's taught me how to do the moxa thing on Ashton (darn tough with so much fur!).

    I know you are limited with the vets you can go to -- and that just plain doesn't help.

    I giggled when you said "Moxa" -- moxibustion for folks new to acupuncture and Oriental techniques -- here moxibustion is RARELY done even on people.  Basically ??? It just plain smells SO much like someone smoking pot that no one dares use it.  Even Dr. DiNatale tells that one time back when she was learning to use it, she wound up with cops at her door. 

    The "moxa stick" she's talking about is this little stick of paper wrapped with some herbs and you actually light it for a period of time -- and honestly?  That's as much as *I* know about it.  It's supposed to be extremely effective, but here in the States it's pretty much too much of a hassle when no one is familiar enough with it and it can get you in trouble. 

    I'd love to see it done -- and I'm glad it's an option for you there (your options are so limited). 

    Lee debbie
    Vet said it was a skin tag, but no idea why it's bleeding. I have to watch it doesn't grow.  And, he suddenly has rust-colored tear stains - some allergy OR disease. I


    skin tags can bleed if they are in an annoying place.  Watch that he's not rubbing his face on something.  They can be a major annoyance (for both humans and pets -- not so much that they hurt ... usually they don't ... but they can often just be annoying and it's like you're drawn to playing with it or for pets to try to rub them off.

    rust-colored tear stains?  You've recently changed diet haven't you?  That can cause tear stains.  Again something I don't have much experience with.

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs

    ...she wound up with cops at her door. 

    The "moxa stick" she's talking about is this little stick of paper wrapped with some herbs and you actually light it for a period of time -- and honestly?  That's as much as *I* know about it.  It's supposed to be extremely effective, but here in the States it's pretty much too much of a hassle when no one is familiar enough with it and it can get you in trouble. 

    Hahahah. I know! It does smell like something illegal, I can't describe it! Vet told me to apply pressure (acupressure) on a particular point and hold the moxa above till my finger feels hot. That doesn't even last a minute really! *I* sweat when I do it, it's supposed to increase Qi, I think I'm the one increasing *my* Qi. I can't wait to get my hands on the book, it'll probably assist me more. And the stick is getting shorter, I don't even know where to get more. Dr S gave it to me complimentary... it wouldn't be too nice to ask for one more..

    calliecritturs

    skin tags can bleed if they are in an annoying place.  Watch that he's not rubbing his face on something.  They can be a major annoyance (for both humans and pets -- not so much that they hurt ... usually they don't ... but they can often just be annoying and it's like you're drawn to playing with it or for pets to try to rub them off.

    it's near his eye, hidden in his fur I would never have known its existence if it never bled. Till now, I don't even know if he scratched it or did I hurt it during his shower. I don't wash his face (because I use apple cider vinegar), but wipe it with a baby wipe, and I couldn't have scratched it. But when I saw the bleed, it was fresh, the skin tag was bright red and small. By the hour, it became bigger and dark red. It hasn't changed in color or size till now. I'm monitoring and cleaning twice a day.

    calliecritturs

    rust-colored tear stains?  You've recently changed diet haven't you?  That can cause tear stains.  Again something I don't have much experience with.

    Yeah I've mentioned that to Mordanna. She hasn't replied. Vet also asked if he was allergic to anything. From what I know, so far, not that I know. But what's new in his diet would be green beans and possibly a few different types of fish. THAT I have to do the elimination test.

    Ashton has been *more* lethargic today. He isn't too excited about me coming home, he didn't greet me. I'll be watching him close because he started vetmedin for barely a week, and what's supposed to improve, I see him not too enthusiastic about. But at least he's still eating well. 

    But I'm really really pleased with Alphie's progress, I'm sure she is too. She's way more active, lively and responsive though she pants heavily. 

    We're giving it a month more to see progress, especially on Ashton.  By then I hope to have learnt some acupressure points to help him further.