Pepper not eating well *UPDATE* not good

tashakota

 Ugh it makes me feel rotten to think all that too.

Everything you are thinking is totally normal imo. There is no easy, or right or wrong answer. You just have to make a decision based on your own situation and don't put pressure on yourself for worrying about what others would do.

*hugs*

Hugs for you, Pepper and Mr. Leslie. Sending lots of prayers as you work through your decisions and choices. I know you'll do the very best for Pepper. (((((hugs)))))

((((Leslie))))  I'm so sorry you've gotten such rotten news. 

  I'm so sorry. Things will seem clearer in a day or two, once you've had more time to think. I know you will do what is best for Pepper. Our vet was worried that Jessie might have cancer last month when she was diagnosed with pneumonia. There were a few small roundish opaque areas in her lungs that could have been tumors. He redid the x-rays after 11 days of Baytril and they were much smaller, so they were from the pneumonia. I can't tell you how much I wish the news had been better for you and your family;  (((Leslie)))

tashakota

I read that acupuncture may not be a good idea depending on whether the acupuncturist knows what do with cancer dogs.  I'm definitely up for trying some herbs. 

TCVM (Traditional Chinese Veterinary Medicine) can absolutely rock to help cancer treatment.  When Muffin had mast cell (which is a histamine tumor but not the same as what she has) they *knew* they didn't get clear margins so we investigated chemo.

I talked with oncologists AND with a friend of mine who is the head neuro-surgeon up at Gainesville (U of FL Vet School). 

There are Chinese herbs that can make chemo almost a non-event.  Muffin had no nausea, and almost no diarreha at all.  There were herbs they gave me to give him four days before chemo and then continue for 5 days after.  (and they only do chemo 1-2 times a month depending on what you're dealing with).  He was on a few other herbs (and I can send you the list Clemmons gave me if you want).

One of the things we gave him was maitake mushroom -- there are several mushrooms used (reishi is another one, and cordryceps is another - and I be I spelled that last one wrong).  But maitake was the main one -- **because** it's a polysaccharide.  That's a big huge mega deal with chemo -- it actually **augments** chemo (and pretty much any dr or vet will tell you to go ahead with a polysaccharide if you can find it -- it's a "good thing";).  But it also actually helps "protect" healthy cells from cancer.

If you go to http://www.tcvm.com - there's a locator on the left.  And if you want to holler at me I might be able to help you know who to call first.  My vet is on the faculty at the Chi Institute (that's their website) and she's a darned good resource.  it was in treating Muffin that we *found* her. 

I decided to heed Clemmons' advice and I scheduled Muffin to get his first chemo up at UF and I scheduled an appt with Dr. Xie (he's the head guy at the Chi Institute -- they're located just outside Gainesville and he also teaches at the vet school -- acupuncture and herbology) for the same time while we were there. 

He gave Mufferino acupuncture and prescribed some herbs and then I looked at him and said "so what am I gonna do in Orlando?  I live 3 hours away!" and he told me (*grin* his English sounds like Chinese to-go) "You have the bery bery BEST in Orlando - you have Corrrri Deee-Natarrry!! (which translated to DiNatale).

I didn't know then that she actually teaches at the Institute.  But boy -- who would have THOT that ANYTHING could make chemo easy?  It did.  Truly it did.

Now honestly?  I wish we'd done chemo only for a little while.  The TCVM made it SO easy that we did it too long.  But it really WILL help augment the chemo IF you're interested.

tashakota

If she liked going for walks or hiking or agility or anything other than laying on the couch, I could argue myself into extending it... but really, it's still for me and DH.

Leslie -- I'm looking at you quizzically -- I'm one of those "on the couch".  Thank heavens I've never gauged my quality of life by how athletic I have ever been or the "things" I've done to be competitive (cos it's an impossibility for me).  She may honestly feel like she has a pretty darned high quality of life because to HER I'd bet "Heaven is" loving her people and being "with" them.  If she's happy in her life -- even if it revolves around 'being with' and sleeping then that's what makes her happy. 

I'm making hash of this I guess -- but I'd guess that how Pepper looks at *her time* with you may be the most valuable gift she can give you?  I hope that makes sense.  But even if she were an athlete she probably wouldn't be doing that sort of thing while taking chemo -- a dog who is more sedentary is likely going to have a higher quality of life during chemo than the dog who feels "caged" and who wants to do things they may not feel strong enough to do. 

I hope that makes sense. 

Maybe it's been because I've always been in love with old dogs but those are the dogs I've learned the most from about loving life. 

If it makes her uncomfortable -- then call a halt to it (no one says you gotta do X number of times if the dog isn't tolerating it).  But, maybe everyone things I'm strange, but I'd ask her how she feels about it.  She may feel that having more time to love her humans is the bestest way ever to spend her remaining time -- however it goes.

 I'm just seeing this Leslie - you've got all our best wishes here, no matter what your decision is.

When Maggie got sick I ran through the same questions about how we wanted to handle it if she was diagnosed with cancer.  Because of the type we were concerned about, surgery was generally considered the first option, but not curative; we decided that it wouldn't be worth putting her thru surgery and recovery for only a few more weeks/months.  If chemo had been an option we might've considered it, but only if the side effects were minimal.  Maggie had a high tolerance for pain so I knew that figuring out when she needed help would be difficult and I didn't want her or our last memories to be pain filled.  As it was, the cancer made the decision for us, but I know how awful those thoughts can be. (((hugs))) Cancer sucks!

(((HUGS)))

 (((Leslie))) Just now seeing this thread.  Poor Pepper :(

I'm so sorry to read this update.  You must be so overwhelmed right now.  But, just take one day at a time.  She's in God's hands, I just know it. 

 (((big hugs)))

calliecritturs

tashakota

If she liked going for walks or hiking or agility or anything other than laying on the couch, I could argue myself into extending it... but really, it's still for me and DH.

Leslie -- I'm looking at you quizzically -- I'm one of those "on the couch".  Thank heavens I've never gauged my quality of life by how athletic I have ever been or the "things" I've done to be competitive (cos it's an impossibility for me).  She may honestly feel like she has a pretty darned high quality of life because to HER I'd bet "Heaven is" loving her people and being "with" them.  If she's happy in her life -- even if it revolves around 'being with' and sleeping then that's what makes her happy. 

I'm making hash of this I guess -- but I'd guess that how Pepper looks at *her time* with you may be the most valuable gift she can give you?  I hope that makes sense.  But even if she were an athlete she probably wouldn't be doing that sort of thing while taking chemo -- a dog who is more sedentary is likely going to have a higher quality of life during chemo than the dog who feels "caged" and who wants to do things they may not feel strong enough to do. 

I hope that makes sense. 

I guess it's more that she doesn't seem to have a zest for life like the other dogs.  And I didn't mean to imply that laying on the couch was bad. It's not, but she doesn't even like to go outside to use the bathroom. Lately, she doesn't even lay in the same room as people except at night when she's in the bedroom with DH.  She has never been a lovey dog, though she has come a long way since we adopted her.

My struggle is that no matter what we do, it means the end for her. It's not operable, there is no cure.  There is no years, there is months.  With that in mind, the answer seems to me that we make her as comfortable as we can and we do for her what we can until that time comes.  Chemo is very expensive and the best hope is for months. Even the oncologist was leaning towards no chemo and using prednisone to help her breathe better.  So that is what DH has started her on. There is pred and then another drug to help ease the stomach, as well as some herbs the vet is recommending. I don't know much more than that at this point. 

DH flies out here on Wed and on the 26th we start the long drive to Oregon in the van with the two dogs and Mickey, the ball python. I got the house packed and truck loaded on Saturday with lots of help from friends. DH gets to clean and hopefully by the first of the year we're back in OR and I can see Pepper again.

Leslie, these are such personal decisions and only the people who live with and love a dog in this situation can make this type of decision.  

I can't imagine what a stressful and sad time this is for you and your DH.  You will all be in my thoughts and prayers.   ((((hugs))))

JackieG

I can't imagine what a stressful and sad time this is for you and your DH.  You will all be in my thoughts and prayers.   ((((hugs))))