Civil "Dog" Wars

goodness, I don't know where you've been hanging out.......

My first two shepherds came from a reputable breeder, Shadow was an "oppps" of only one pup,  The remaining three are from litters that I fostered and failed to find good enough homes for.  Many of us here are responsible folks who foster, rescue, and otherwise dedicate ourselves to helping animals.  I myself am on the board of TWO humane societies, in addition to the fostering I do for a number of rescues.

When you restrict the right of humans to do anything, the "black market" becomes more profitable.  Yes, it would be nice if there were more regulations on breeding, but by placing those regs, without very strict and well financed means of enforcing them, you're handing breeding over to BYB's and underground millers.

There are working line shepherds for example who would fail miserably in the show ring.  American judges go for such severe angulation that a real working dog or one from real working lines with a structure suitable to working isn't going to go anywhere in the show ring.  And there are many other breeds where that same issue applies.

By making spay/nueter a law, well, then folks avoid vets.  Folks find all sorts of ways to avoid licensing and the mandated rabies vacines.  And often show quality isn't known in the early weeks, or what is considered a show quality pup comes up lame, the bit goes off, etc, etc, etc.  While no GOOD breeder would breed such a pup, you've got that little loophole......

I don't truly believe that making laws will make people more responsible.  Only education can accomplish that.

Pomeranian <3

Reputable Bred Dogs: Buying Ch. Bred is the only way to stop the problem. Once shelters become full, stores close, and puppy mills find no use to continue then over population will come to an end. People who only buy pure bred tend to be very offensive towards people who purchase from shelters. I see comments like "good support the mutts! keep creating empty space in shelters for more puppy mill dogs to fill"

 

I bought my dog from a Ch Breeder, but I would say my reasons fit more closely to the BYB/MILL/STORE 'stereotype'. I wanted a dog. I liked Aussies. I got an Aussie. I did not consider a rescue or shelter mainly because I did not consider myself dog savvy enough to identify health or behaviour problems. Being a first time owner I wanted to increase my chances of obtaining a healthy, well bred dog. For my next dog, I would consider a shelter or rescue as it breaks my heart to see sooooo many dogs without homes.

As for stopping puppy mills, I don't know that there is a solution. Personally I feel that reputable breeders just cannot keep up with the demand for dogs and even if they could, the price is out of reach for many people.  Limited supply is always going to drive the puppymill business, high prices the BYBs and convenience the pet store business. I would like to see it illegal to sell pups in a store and stricter and cheaper spay/neuter.

I do not believe it is possible to legislate responsible breeding or even dog ownership.  I do believe education will make an impact, and the place to start is in the primary grades.  You have the opportunity to teach about responsible ownship, safe behavior around animals, and identify what you need to ask yourself before you commit to a pet.

Presently I am restricted in the number of animals, so I buy from breeders in the dog fancy.  My primary leisure activities involve training, working and showing my dogs.  I support rescue for two breed clubs (transport, evaluation, evaluation of homes).  I provide monetary support to those clubs.  I teach public obedience as a volunteer for a local all breed kennel club.  I support rescue efforts of the indivdiuals in that group as well.  I expect that in the future some long term fosters will end their lives in my home when that allows.

Health testing needs to occur for all breeding stock, but it is not a guarentee of a healthy dog, just a good shot at it.

I will never again buy a purebred dog without a strong contract.  I will breed only as a result of the purchase contract on my present bitch.

I just noticed that this is in the Polls forum.

You can ask a mod to move it to General Chat or the appropriate area.

denise m

I bought my dog from a Ch Breeder, but I would say my reasons fit more closely to the BYB/MILL/STORE 'stereotype'. I wanted a dog. I liked Aussies. I got an Aussie. I did not consider a rescue or shelter mainly because I did not consider myself dog savvy enough to identify health or behaviour problems. Being a first time owner I wanted to increase my chances of obtaining a healthy, well bred dog. For my next dog, I would consider a shelter or rescue as it breaks my heart to see sooooo many dogs without homes.

As for stopping puppy mills, I don't know that there is a solution. Personally I feel that reputable breeders just cannot keep up with the demand for dogs and even if they could, the price is out of reach for many people.  Limited supply is always going to drive the puppymill business, high prices the BYBs and convenience the pet store business. I would like to see it illegal to sell pups in a store and stricter and cheaper spay/neuter.

I am very similar.  Although we did not get Misty from a Ch Breeder, he was a local farmer who breeds BC's for basically his own use and the extra pups I guess he sells.  But, he really asked us a lot of questions.  Ex. do you live in a house or apt.?  do you have a yard?  He wouldn't sell any of his pups to anyone who lived in an apt. or didn't have a yard for the dog.  He asked these two particular questions, frequently, I guess to see if we slipped.  But we were honest, we did our research, I wanted a BC, I got a BC and when we went to pick her up, I asked to see the parents, I saw one of the older siblings, and was very pleased.  I too, though, if and when the time comes we decided on another dog, look into shelters.  Had I been aware of the BC rescues that are out there, I would have probably checked into that before even Farmer Tom.  But, having Misty, I know I made no mistakes!  I also, agree w/ just making it illegal to sell pups in stores and help pet owners out and make the necessary spay/neuter cheaper, it would help a lot!

Market pressure drives the byb. Many want a dog but cannot afford what a legit breeder charges, though I've seen parking lot pups for a couple of hundred dollars. I will not buy from a byb, which doesn't stop them. And it is difficult to find a good breeder. That's why I would have to seek out a breed club and see who they recommend. But, for a purebred, I don't have to look any farther than the local shelter. I've seen purebred Sibes (my breed of choice) at our local shelter. And I know of at least two Sibe breeders in this county, one of them also breeding Poms and selling them at the Home Depot parking lot. So, they may not be show quality and with doubtful or no health testing, I wouldn't know if they are even pet quality if they have health problems.

Shadow was bought by friends from a pet store. He was bought a few days after Labor Day 2003 at Plano Pets and Grooming in Plano, Tx. now located at Spring Creek Rd and Alma Rd. (Oops, I said it again.) His breeder on his purchase papers is listed as Mike Yaeger, who I have not been able to contact and the store will not give me contact info. I wasn't trying to bust the guy. I just wanted to know which parent was the Sibe (academic interest in canine nDNA) and to confirm that the parent Sibe was a Brown and Red, which would explain his four colors of black, brown, red, and white undercoat. Labor Day Weekend 2004, his previous owner could no longer keep him and her family was going to surrender him to the Sherman Animal Shelter, which is has a euth schedule, especially based on room. When they are full, a dog, after evaluation and health check, has about 7 days. Same with cats. I have been to the shelter. It's a decent little shelter but they don't have room for the whole world.

I don't have a lot of money, though I could save to buy from a legit breeder. But I haven't seen the need when there are purebreds at the shelter, most of them simply suffering from a case of "clueless human." Nothing against buyers of purebreds. And I don't accost people selling pups in the parking lot, either. Or those that buy from them.

Our cat, Jade, was wandering the streets of our town, which is not without danger. Some have dogs running loose. I plucked her out of a friend's tree. Earlier, I had brought Shadow over on neutral territory and he was ready to play. I can just walk out the door, sometimes, and find a pet. My next dog, whenever that may be, will more than likely come from a shelter or rescue. I'm not a hero. I am quite human, quite fallible, and make loads of mistakes. I wouldn't do it for the glory or honors. I would do it because it is the right thing for me to do. If I can make a difference in one dog's life ...

 

 

 Only education will stop puppy mills, and to be honest, I'm surprised that you didn't add humane education in the schools as a desired objective.  It has helped to stop many kids from smoking, even those with parents who smoke, so perhaps it would go a long way toward changing some attitudes about the care and custody of dogs.  You are overlooking one thing in your statement that you would only buy from "championship" breeders.  By that, I assume that you mean breeders who show their dogs in the conformation ring.  You have, with that statement, completely discounted working dogs.  Example: If you want a dog that herds, you buy from working lines.  Many such dogs do not have a Ch. before their names, they have WTCH.  Or, they have nothing, because they are not shown, just worked. (Although in that case, they should certainly still have OFA, CERF, etc.)  One does not need years of showing experience to produce good dogs - they do need knowledge about structure, genetics, and working ability.  IMO, you would do better to "test" owners, than to test breeders.  If owners got better educated, then disreputable breeders would have no one to sell to.
Not everyone wants a *content removed, rude* dog like yours with a CH in front of his/her name - there are people whose livelihoods depend heavily on working dogs, so please get better educated yourself before you go legislating them out of existence with silly rules that completely ignore them.  With knowledge, owners can separate responsible breeders from irresponsible ones who do not stand behind their dogs and do adequate genetic testing and the like.  By the way, just curious, did your breeder give you a lifetime guarantee on your dog and sell her to you with a spay contract?  Did you get a five generation pedigree and evidence of genetic testing on the parents and grandparents of your dog?  Did your breeder stay in touch with you and mentor you through your dog's puppyhood?  Did your dogs' parents have the Ch. (or another indication that they are well bred and functional dogs, such as an agility title, tracking title, or working title or ability?)

As long as humans fail to be able to delay gratification, there will be a market for puppy millers.  They know only too well that if a rescue turns Mrs.  Dumbfart away because she has a two year old child, or her yard isn't fenced in, that she will hike off to the pet store to buy Fifi, and then she will, almost assuredly, turn Fifi over to the shelter when she continues to escape the yard (because Mrs. D never did find out how to train a proper recall) or when Fifi suddenly decides to bite the face of her obnoxious two year old tormentor (she attacked without any warning - ya, right).

Education, education, education.
 

spiritdogs

Not everyone wants *previously removed content* dog like yours with a CH in front of his/her name

*content removed, referencing previously removed content*

Remember I respect all dogs equally and wish the best for every breed. Never owning a working dog I was no sure of the "WTCH" etc but I did say how I think dogs should have show history & breeder should have many years of knowledge.

spiritdogs

If you want a dog that herds, you buy from working lines.  Many such dogs do not have a Ch. before their names, they have WTCH.  Or, they have nothing, because they are not shown, just worked. (Although in that case, they should certainly still have OFA, CERF, etc.)  One does not need years of showing experience to produce good dogs - they do need knowledge about structure, genetics, and working ability. 

I agree with this above statement too.

spiritdogs

I'm surprised that you didn't add humane education in the schools as a desired objective.  It has helped to stop many kids from smoking, even those with parents who smoke, so perhaps it would go a long way toward changing some attitudes about the care and custody of dogs.  You are overlooking one thing in your statement that you would only buy from "championship" breeders.  By that, I assume that you mean breeders who show their dogs in the conformation ring.  You have, with that statement, completely discounted working dogs.  Example: If you want a dog that herds, you buy from working lines. 

Please keep in mind this thread was not to judge other people's ideas but to simply state your own. My list was a brief summary [apologies if I did not talk about working dogs directly at the time] My conclusion is I feel/wish there were more LAWS to prevent mills & BYBs from happening. [Just as I do wish smoking, your previous example]

I do believe you are right that is a great idea to simply bring more awareness and education to everyone. This can be assumed and added amongst my opinion on how to stop the madness.

Thanks for sharing your ideas, they are some good ones. In the future please don't refer to me in a negative manner for merely a brief opinion. And Kayla would highly resent being called a "foo-foo" dog; she'll kick a bigger dog's butt in the yard, haha ;o)

spiritdogs

By the way, just curious, did your breeder give you a lifetime guarantee on your dog and sell her to you with a spay contract?  Did you get a five generation pedigree and evidence of genetic testing on the parents and grandparents of your dog?  Did your breeder stay in touch with you and mentor you through your dog's puppyhood?  Did your dogs' parents have the Ch. (or another indication that they are well bred and functional dogs, such as an agility title, tracking title, or working title or ability?)

Kayla is not a Champion. Because of this I did not get the regulation size [as expected]. After much research and helping rescue Poms from puppy mills I deciding my money will only be spent on Ch. Bred 2nd generation Poms from now on. Not only do I think this will help stop supporting BYB & Stores but I will have closer contact with the breeder & a new lifelong mentor/friend. I look forward to purchasing a male from a Ch. Breeder in Michigan. From here I will start to show Poms competitively.

Kayla had: health guarantees, spay contract, 10 generation pedigree, genetic testing & records of family history, pet registration, and micro-chip.

All though the family had been apparently breeding Poms for years I now find them highly uneducated. They are breeding Poms that are guaranteed to produce over-sized babies. I think all breeders should have show quality recognition dogs & active breed club members.

But again, you are leaving out the working breeds....those are very unlikely to HAVE a show history.

And, again, I do not believe that you can legislate morality or ethics.  Unfortunately we've become a society that wants what we want when we want it.  Demand fuels supply, so until PEOPLE who buy dogs get a handle on their wants and become willing to be responsible, to WAIT for a well bred pup, AND commit to the animal for it's lifetime.  We've also become a throw away society....if it doesn't work for us, we ditch it.  And fast, without putting any effort into keeping IT, whatever it might be....a relationship, toaster oven, animal......if it's not convenient it goes.

How do we legislate those factors?  We simple can't.

But, we can educate.  Is it going to be a quick fix?  Nope.  Instead it'll be an uphill battle on a slippery slope.

Know how they have "Truth" (i.e. for smoking) something spiritdogs pointed out. This type of education I do believe has their effect but of course there are still millions of people who smoke.

Do we have an Dog "truth-type" organizations that pertain to this cause? There are many puppp mill rescues and non-profits but what about educational statement and awareness groups??

If not I'll start one! :o)

glenmar

I do not believe that you can legislate morality or ethics.  Unfortunately we've become a society that wants what we want when we want it. 

Very true! Which is why I WISH it would happen :o( LAWS do apparently stop nothing even since we still have human crime. But I do feel education plus making it "harder" per say would help. (i.e. testing and licensing)

I should probably go back and EXTEND my summary so people don't think I'm disregarding all other breeds besides my own. Just using mine as an example. But yes working dogs are a huge part of our dog population and deserve just as much equality and help.

Those ads crack me up...because they are funded by tobacco co's...lol.

 

All my dogs have come from reputable breeders. I look for someone that loves the breed and breeds for improving the breed and keeping it as close to it's original function as possible.

 I am active in rescue although since Hektor is growing up most of my efforts have been reduced to transport and other activties to assist. Now that my children are older I will consider adoption for the next dog I get although I may also decide to go with a purebred again.

  Not only would I never purchase a dog from a pet store, I refuse to buy anything from a petstore that sells puppies or kittens. There is one store very close to my home that sells the food my dogs eat in a larger bag (I am buying it in 15lb bags now) but I will not purchase it from them. I make a point of letting the two local pet stores know that I would love to give them my buisness but cannot as long as they sell puppies.

  The reason I have chosen reputable breeders instead of shelter dogs is really because I want to know what I am getting and be able to get what I want. For Gunnar we wanted a bird dog and we wanted to hunt with him. We could have rescued one but would not have known what issues the dog might have or whether he was a natural hunter or not. We also had younger kids at the time and wanted to have a puppy grow up with them.

 Hektor was purchased because we have always admired the breed but for many years could not commit to owning one, we knew they were a challenge to own and required space and time so we waited until we were able to accomadate the dogs needs. We wanted a large breed to serve the purpose of home guardian but also wanted to be able to hunt on occasion. So again it was better to buy from a breeder than to adopt.

 As for the question of whether a show ring champion betters the breed or not, or whether all breeders should have to show their dogs to "prove" them, I think not. I have seen many a Vizsla with blue ribbons galore that cannot hunt their way out of a paperbag. Many Dogo;s are being bred and shown that never hunt and most likely cannot hunt. To me this is a shame as this is the breeds primary purpose for being.

 Those of you who work your dogs, be they husky's, GSD'd, border collies etc I am sure also know of many "champions" that have offspring that do not or cannot work as they were intended.

 If we wanted to place requirements on breeders then it should be to ensure the purpose of the breed as well as proper confromation and looks. Any dog not able to fulfil the role it was created for should not be bred, regardless of how wonderful its conformation is and any dog that works great but has conformation faults should also not be bred. But I must admit that I do not want to see the goverment pass restrictions on breeding, we have enough of the goverment trying to tell us what to do and when to do it. I prefer to see the breeders and dog clubs police themselves. If people stopped buying dogs from pet stores or newspaper adds then people would stop breeding them for the easy sell.

 

 A championship breeder does not always a good dog make, it all depends on what you want that dog to do, IMO (US)show ring breeders have done much (not all of them) to ruin many of the working and hunting breeds by breeding only for conformation and show.

 

Thanks for sharing your ideas, they are some good ones. In the future please don't refer to me in a negative manner for merely a brief opinion. And Kayla would highly resent being called a "foo-foo" dog; she'll kick a bigger dog's butt in the yard, haha ;o)

Among groomers and trainers, we commonly refer to small dogs, teacup dogs, dogs that dress in sweaters, and dogs that need haircuts as "foo foo".  It isn't meant as a derogatory term, just as a catch all for that type of dog.  I OWN a foo foo dog myself.  But, on the subject of who kicks whose butt in the play yard, don't press your luck, Kayla.  And, Sequoyah hates when her relatives are left out - her granddaddy is a WTCH and High Combined Champion for 2005, and her sire and dam, and quite a few of her relatives are working cattle dogs.  She is also big sis to Fergie the foo foo Yorkie.