Vaccine Help

    • Gold Top Dog

    Vaccine Help

    I know this has been done before, but Salem's appointment is tomorrow, and I still don't know what to do.

    He needs his 3 year rabies this year to cover state law. From what I understand I should do titers for parvo, distemper and corona, but I am stuck about lepto and lyme.

    Does anyone know if lepto is prevalent in MD? I know lyme is so I'm thinking maybe I should give him that vaccine. He gets ticks all the time even with frontline on, because of his fur.

    Help! I just can't figure this out.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Lepto is the hardest vax of all to give -- it's the one that most commonly causes reactions, and I wouldn't be giving it unless my back was completely against the wall.

    They can't titer for corona - but can for distemper and parvo and parvo and corona are very closely related.  The information *I* was given at the U of Florida (Gainesville) said corona virus lives IN parvo virus so if they are adequately resistant to parvo they won't get corona.  Now this year both Luna and Kee showed low (one on parvo, one on distemper) so I did give them a round of modified live core vax for just them. 

    Now if it were me, I wouldn't give more than Rabies that one time, even if I have to pay another office visit -- vaccines are just so debilitating on the immune system that I never give more than one if I can help it.

    Remember Lyme is only good for Lyme's disease and that's only one of many tick diseases.  You can't vax for the others.  Again, what they're teaching at UF says if a sick tick has ever been on Salem, and he's successfully fought it off, his body has already formed resistance.  That's how the body is *supposed* to work  The Lyme's vax is a modified live vaccine and it's a pretty tough vaccine.  So again, if it were *me* I wouldn't give more than one big vaccine in a day.

    • Gold Top Dog

    the current guidelines recommend not giving the lyme vaccine to any dog. It's not safe, it's not effective, and once your dog gets it it becomes very difficult and expensive to tell whether the dog has contracted lyme.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'd do the rabies and put off the others.  I just tell them, "My dog has had a reaction to this vaccine before."  Which is true - those combo vaccines cause reactions in most of the dogs I've given them to!  Then I explain that I'm getting a vaccine schedule from a specialist and I'll bring it in.  Next year I'll start doing titers and get recommendations for vaccines based on those, and request that the vax be done spaced out.

    I've only got two young dogs so I don't expect I'll need anything other than the rabies for the rest of their lives.  I've heard of distemper antibodies tapering off (and adults getting it) but not any of the others in a dog that had a normal vax schedule.

    The Lyme vaccine is just evil.  Don't let them do it.  I have a thing against the bordatella vaccine too - waste of money and I've seen it reduce a dog's resistance to the point that they come down with something else.  I've got a note in Ben's chart NO BORDATELLA.  He has never had kennel cough in his life in spite of never having the vaccine and being exposed frequently.  I don't know why - my vet is really nice about other stuff but they keep sneaking that darn KC vaccine in when I bring in dogs, even when I say, "No."  They'll learn later to listen when I talk - they already are in many other things. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    I might be living dangerously, but I only get the 3 yr rabies for both of my dogs. Sassy's had so many allergy problems and other issues that I just don't want to take any chances. My other dog is almost 13 and I feel quite comfortable that she doesn't need any of the other vaccines. I don't take them to places that I'd need to worry about Lepto and even my vet suggested that I not give that. Assuming my older girl lives another 2-3 yrs, I'll have titers done before I'll give her another rabies vaccine.
    • Gold Top Dog

    I do rabies every three years, a combo once a year, and bordatella twice a year.  I also do at least 2 fecals a year and a heartworm test.  My vet's rabies protocol is every 3 years.  The combo (which includes lepto) we do once a year.  My dogs are young and healthy, no allergies or reactions.  They travel a lot and are constantly exposed to other dogs.  Our training clubs and boarding facilities require the bordatella, and I have worked with many dogs who have it.

    If my dogs had reactions, were older, and/or were not going all over to various training clubs and dog shows, I would probably do once every three years for rabies (as required by law) and nothing else.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for your help everyone. I think I've decided to just do rabies tomorrow and no other vaccines. I will probably go ahead and run titers as well, and do a SNAP4 of course.

    I feel really terrible. Salem is 4 1/2 years old and has well... everything every year. I've only found out since I joined here that this is bad.

    He gets:

    Rabies every 3 years (required)

    and yearly:

    DHLP (don't even know what this is)
    Lyme
    Lepto
    Corona
    Parvo
    Bordetella

    I feel bad, and I feel a little let down by the vet too.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I do the same thing, minus the lyme.  Our vet uses some combo that include lepto, plus I am required by my training club and boarding facility to do bordetella.  I have no issues with doing titres or three year vaccines, but I don't personally know anyone who's dog has had any sort of adverse reaction to a vaccine, and my dogs are young and very healthy but also at risk for a lot of these things so I vaccinate them yearly with the combo. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Be aware that titers are *expensive* - for the combo parvo/distemper one I did with Z this year it was $125.  The blood has to be sent out and I got results about 3 days after our appointment.

    I follow the most recent AVMA/AAHA vaccine protocols - more frequent vaccination is outdated and unnecessary.  For my girls this means rabies and distemper/parvo every three years.  My girls are relatively "high risk" for diseases vaccines cover I would guess as I work at a shelter and they do come with me at times (Z about once a week, Maggie about 3 times/year) and both are active in sports and other dog related activities (SAR, therapy visits, etc.), yet I jave no worries about their health on the 3 year protocols.

    My vet prefers to separate rabies from a combo vax so she requires a minimum 3 week break between them and the second visit is no charge other than the cost of the vaccine ($15). 

    Maggie got her rabies and will be getting her distemper/parvo vaccine this year - she's a 9yo BC mix that's healthy in general.  I've never noticed any vaccine reactions with her.  However, Maggie will get her last round of distemper/parvo vax when she's 12 and from then on she'll only get rabies as required by law - this is on reccomendation of my vet.

    Ziva is 18 mo and was given a ton of distemper/parvo vaccines at the shelter (5 in 3 months!), so this year - her first official annual exam with my vet - we gave her a 3 year rabies (state law requires a booster one year after the first vaccine) and titered for distemper and parvo.  Her titers came back protective so we will not vaccinate this year; will either vaccinate or titer again next year.  I discussed Lepto since Z is in the woods a lot for SAR and our vet said she's not seen many cases and would prob not vaccinate, but that it was up to me.  given my team's experiences and the fact that the vaccine barely lasts a year for protection, we won't be doing Lepto.

    I do Bordatella yearly if the girls will board, but this year we're holding off since I know have DH around to take care of the girls when I travel for work.  I do intranasal vaccines for Bordatella and administer them myself.

    • Gold Top Dog

     DHLP (don't even know what this is)

    Distemper, Hepatitis, Lepto, Parvo combination

    Yep, the AVMA is not a fan of overvaccination....a lot of "core shots" have been converted to "not recommended" or "optional". Unfortunately, some old-school vets still insist on sticking in a needle for everything under the sun - bah. AAHA is also recommending boosters only every three years now if titering is not an option.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just wanted to throw in here that the Lyme vaccine really shouldn't be necessary if you have frontline on the dog.  Even though ticks may get on the dog, they should die within 24 hours and it takes 48 hours to actually get lyme disease from the tick.  ;)

    • Gold Top Dog

    SalemsMom
    DHLP (don't even know what this is)
    Lyme
    Lepto
    Corona
    Parvo
    Bordetella

    I imagine DHLP is Distemper-Adenovirus(Hepatitis)-??-Parainfluenza, but if the "L" is not Lyme or Lepto, I don't know what it is.

    The AAHA (American Animal Hospital Association) recommendations are

    • Corona - never
    • Rabies - every 3 years
    • Distemper - every 3 years
    • Parvo - every 3 years
    • Adenovirus (cross protects against Hepatitis) - every 3 years
    • Parainfluenza - every 3 years (protects against one of 8+ causes of Kennel Cough)
    • Bordetella - shot is good for 1 year (protects against two of 8+ causes of Kennel Cough)
    • Lyme - yearly - Recommended only for use in dogs with a known high risk of exposure living in an area where tick exposure is high. 
    • Lepto - every 6-9 months - vaccines are available for only 4 of the strains - Vaccinations should be restricted to use in areas where a reasonable risk of exposure is established. - Risk is high for toy dogs - Never give to pups under 12 weeks.

    If one wished, you could do Rabies one year, Parvo & Distemper the next year, and Adenovirus & Parainfluenza the third year - repeat. 

    Challenge studies have show at least 7 year protection for Distemper, Parvo, Adenovirus, and Rabies, so the 3 year recommendations are political compromises.  Further challenge studies are under way for Rabies. 

    Be sure that your vaccines do not contain the preservative Thimerosal (contains mercury!).

    Useful links:

    • Gold Top Dog

    janet_rose

    I imagine DHLP is Distemper-Adenovirus(Hepatitis)-??-Parainfluenza, but if the "L" is not Lyme or Lepto, I don't know what it is.

    It's Lepto.

    The thing that gets a bit frustrating -- and I'm sure it sounds "old" to some of you who have stated your dogs are young, healthy, etc. and you've never seen a bad reaction (and LIes, I'm not picking on you -- you're just the only one who has said it *this* time -- it's a common reaction!!!) -- let me try to explain.

    Sometimes I'm not just the 'dog lady' for some ... sometimes I feel like the OLD dog lady.  I'm no antique really, BUT I've had dogs constantly since I was 19, and have taken care of them on my own.  All rescues -- all ages, all breeds, all different types of circumstances.  But cumulatively I've had many "grow old".  And in that time I've learned some really hard, harsh, difficult, and painful lessons.

    Prissy survived unbelievably severe pancreatitis (3 bouts of it - hospitalized each time over 13 years) but lived to be  almost  21.      I was single most of the time I had her and learned completely by accident.  I didn't get her shots every year because I flatly couldn't afford it.  But it was my training for taking care of a 'sick dog'.

    From there on it was different. 

    With Mike tha Dog, I lost him because a foster had parasites (whips/hooks) so I learned to be vigilant about making sure that's dealt with every month - chemicals are scarey - losing a dog is heartbreaking.

    With Muffin, we brought him thru cancer twice -- but I listened to a vet against my own better judgment and continued chemo as a 'precaution' because he had such a crap immune system.  I listened to the vet and believed the "side effects are minimal" speech and his kidneys failed because of the medicine we gave him.

    Another friend's dog died from IMHA that began immediately after vaccinations (and I knew Sandra Slayton years ago when Hunter was a puppy -- Hunter reacted to ProHeart 6 not vaccines).

    Another woman I worked with lost her dog to cancer that was vaccine related.

    When Billy had IMHA I literally met and spoke with countless people who all were able to tie their dog's IMHA to vaccines.  Most of those dogs died.

    See -- all the dogs pretty much started out as "young and healthy" and had vaccines every year.  The huge risk for vaccine related illness doesn't happen until they are a few years old. 

    But when you see these things happen .... LATER.  The dogs who get cancer LATER.  The dogs who get IMHA ... later. 

    Where is the line?  I'll do this while my dog is "young" ... and worry later?  No one knows until the diagnosis happens.  And often what is set in stone immune-wise when they are young, isn't reaped until years later.  Billy didn't get vaccines in the 4 years he's been with me -- but he was over-vaccinated out the ying/yang just prior to coming to me.  The rescue he was with gave him 3 rabies shots and 3 combo shots in 5 months because of placement over-laps and faulty record-keeping. 

    Maybe your breed has "other" health issues -- like shepherds have DM looming and hip problems.  Except ... DM is really pretty darned close to MS in people ... and gee whiz, look at all the research there tying things like mercury poisoning and other environmental things to MS.  (Think thimerisol in vaccines?)

    It's just that a lot of us have learned to be less trusting because of experiences WE have gone thru and experiences other friends have gone thru.  And some of us are ... let's use the words "more experienced" -- as a euphemism for "older". 

    I can't control my dogs' world totally -- but I can minimize what I can.  And I've had enough personal experience with vets and my own doctors to simply not trust as much any more. 

    It breaks my heart sometimes because it's not just that some dogs are unhealthy from the get go -- some ARE truly that ... BUT, many times a dog is healthy up until that magical point in time where they have a reaction or get sick.   And then no amount of "I wish I hadn't" helps.

     I'm not flaming any one -- just explaining why some of us have not only made the choices we have but why we are so verbal about it.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    After what I've been thru these past two months I will never vaccinate a dog with those boosters every year again.  Puppy shots, then rabies as required by law.  Willow's immune disease could of been caused by vaccines. The first thing the vet told me after she told me the diagnosis--before she even told me what they were going to treat her with--was no more vaccines for Willow, and then she emphasized the EVER. 

    Lori

    Edited to add--I'm not even sure that it takes over vaccinating to cause these immune problems.  Willow had NO vaccines when she came to us five years ago.  She's had rabies twice in the five and boosters only a few times.  It wasn't like it was a lifetime of vaccines for her.  And, the vet did tell me at around age 7 or 8 that's when these things start to pop up. 

    I'm not saying anyone should make their decisions based solely on anything here but definately something to discuss with your vet.

    • Gold Top Dog

    janet_rose
    I imagine DHLP is Distemper-Adenovirus(Hepatitis)-??-Parainfluenza, but if the "L" is not Lyme or Lepto, I don't know what it is.

    calliecritturs
    It's Lepto. 

    That's what I figured, but she listed Lepto separately, so I thought maybe I was missing something.