Dog Community

The war between "positive" and "correctional"

Posted : 8/7/2008 1:41:15 PM

Every forum is different. On some forums the word correction is so much of a taboo, you might as well be burned at the steak. This seems to be the general feeling here. I have finally experienced it myself, and have now seen others also being treated poorly simply because we leave doors open and understand corrections are not always a bad things and sometimes are a necessity in life. Dear Lord, I don't know what we would do if no dog or child was ever allowed to be punished for bad behavior.

And the worst part it seems is that people on here assume the second they hear "correction" that the person is a yank and crank, abusive, uneducated, Cesar Milan loving dog trainer. As if a small, upbeat, non confrontational correction is animal cruelty and those that use them should be jailed!

What I do not understand is why the extremists have to make it into so much of a war. I am NOT a purely positive dog trainer. No such thing as a purely, 100% positive dog training. They don't exist, and they never will. And I am NOT a correction based, over demanding, authoritarian, alpha rolling, ruff shaking, choke chain loving dog abuser either. I am very far from either of the two extremes, but instead leave many doors open. I try to constantly learn from all spectrums of dog training. Even the amount of dislike I may have for Cesar, I have found myself bored in a store and picked up his book to read a few pages. Why? Not because I believe I agree with what he teaches for the most part, but simply because education is never a bad thing. It just simply isn't. If I find something I can use and apply, I will do so. If my assumptions were correct, then I will simply leave that particular method alone. The same could be said about "purely positive" trainers as well - take some, leave the rest. In the end, it is those that stay out of the war zone and take neither extreme that are usually the best, most successful and most educated dog trainers I have ever met.

So next time you hear "correction", think twice, stop assuming and educate yourself. And next time any of you on the latter side hear "treat" or "clicker", think twice and educate yourself. It's time to stop this silly childishness that so many in the dog training world enjoy to continue and bring up time after time.

Benedict

Posted : 8/7/2008 2:07:59 PM

Personally, I think there will be a "war" for as long as people continue to use inflammatory words like "war".

tessa_s212
stop assuming

The problem with assumptions is that it's easy to assume that it is the other side doing the assuming. Generalisations are a dangerous thing.

brookcove

Posted : 8/7/2008 3:00:01 PM

Personally, I think there will be a "war" for as long as people continue to use inflammatory words like "war".

Indeed. I see it less as a war and more of a dialog - as long as everyone stays cool and remembers that it's not personal. And stay away from those generalizations!

CoBuHe

Posted : 8/7/2008 3:08:13 PM

tessa_s212
What I do not understand is why the extremists have to make it into so much of a war.

Gee, wonder how that happens. Big Smile

Dog_ma

Posted : 8/7/2008 3:47:32 PM

It's the weapons of mass dysfunction. Sad Always is.

luvmyswissy

Posted : 8/7/2008 3:53:35 PM

IMO and for what is it worth, I dislike the divide that there is a right and a wrong. What unfortunately has been lost in this heated battle is the crucial and rational importance of “Balance.” Not this way, not that way.

I see nothing wrong with a balanced approach, utilize the many tools and creatively tailor them to individual scenarios. I think “Balanced Training” should express the desire to meet in the middle of the opposing philosophies.

Balanced training acknowledges that no one method will work best on any dog or in any situation. It allows the flexibility of using both positive and negative reinforcements and balancing the two factors in a way which will emphasize helping the dog learn and retain the required lessons.

There is a need for understanding and respect. There is a need to agree that we may, at times, disagree, but that we need to stand together. There is no benefit in denigrating and condemning another persons methods provided they are humane. Yet, in the term “humane” lies the emotional conflict, as one persons idea of humane is another’s definition of inhumane.

Trainers and instructors have professional obligation to produce reliable results. For those deriving income from training and instruction they are ethically bound to give the client what they are paying for. The motto for trainers on both sides of the divide appears to be the same: “Do no harm”. The common love and dedication to dogs should never be in doubt. A balanced approach and open minded perspective can bring rewards to the good of dogs, their owners and the profession of dog training.

As with any philosophy, the truth is rarely found at extreme ends of the spectrum. The truth is out there. It can always be located somewhere close to the middle. That is the only place balance can exist.

tessa_s212

Posted : 8/7/2008 3:58:58 PM

luvmyswissy
IMO and for what is it worth, I dislike the divide that there is a right and a wrong. What unfortunately has been lost in this heated battle is the crucial and rational importance of “Balance.”

I see nothing wrong with a balanced approach, utilize the many tools and creatively tailor them to individual scenarios. I think “Balanced Training” should express the desire to meet in the middle of the opposing philosophies.

Balanced training acknowledges that no one method will work best on any dog or in any situation. It allows the flexibility of using both positive and negative reinforcements and balancing the two factors in a way which will emphasize helping the dog learn and retain the required lessons.

There is a need for understanding and respect.

A balanced approach and open minded perspective can bring rewards to the good of dogs, their owners and the profession of dog training.

As with any philosophy, the truth is rarely found at extreme ends of the spectrum. The truth is out there. It can always be located somewhere close to the middle. That is the only place balance can exist.

Excellent post! And this is exactly what I meant. The best of dog trainers are those that meet in the middle - not on either extreme, but have a balanced approach to dog training.

Chuffy

Posted : 8/7/2008 4:15:22 PM

Just a note to the OP - what do YOU mean by "correction"?

When I think of correction, I don't think of "punishment". (Which I mean in the purely behavioural context - somehting which decreases behaviour). There are many things that I consider to be a correction that are mild, non aversive and likely to be used in my day to day life with dogs. Usually, it's distraction, redirection or gentle moulding (example: leading the dog away from a forbidden object or area).

Most people over use punishment, even mild punishment. A lot of folks think it's necessary when it really isn't.

And that's all I have to say about that..... this subject is a dead horse!

spiritdogs

Posted : 8/7/2008 4:32:59 PM

Personally, I think there will be a "war" for as long as people continue to use inflammatory words like "war".

What was the point of this thread anyway - to start another one???? (*stops to reload*)

Dog_ma

Posted : 8/7/2008 4:50:37 PM

SD, put the key board on the ground and slowly back away from the computer. Keep those hands up,and no kicking the power button.

*squints at the rest of the bar*

*tugs mustache*

Stick out tongue

ron2

Posted : 8/7/2008 5:13:15 PM

Dog_ma

*squints at the rest of the bar*

*tugs mustache*

Someone opened a bar? Alrighty then. I'll have fat free organic milk. In a dirty glass (in order to keep my tough guy image). And, by the way, I have the long moustache, for real.

I'd thought of responding to the op but it would probably get read the wrong way. Lately, I'm inclining to post less, for some reason.

A new idea for a bumper sticker (I know, that was another thread):

"You can have my clicker when you pry it from my cold, dead hands."

Hooraw ....

tessa_s212

Posted : 8/7/2008 5:14:57 PM

spiritdogs
What was the point of this thread anyway - to start another one???? (*stops to reload*)

Quite the contrary. Reload all you would like, but I will have no weapon in defense.

The only point to this thread was to point out to others the extremist mindset people have become a victim of. It is not is certainly not kind or fair that I and many others are treated poorly because we do not follow the purely positive bandwagon. I have no plans for war because I do not see myself posting too heavily on this forum in the future.

However, I still cannot help but to laugh that on many of the forums I may participate in I am attacked and thought little of because I am the positive and motivational dog trainer that uses treats, clickers, and more humane and gentle training and rehabilitation methods. And here I am viewed as the exact opposite. It's just slightly amusing is all.

Benedict

Posted : 8/7/2008 5:22:32 PM

I don't mind what people post. I don't care what camp people are in. I'm in my own and don't particularly feel the need to detail it to anyone, except in debates of philosophy which I find interesting.

What I do care about is people remembering to debate the subject of the post without attacking the poster him/herself. When people remember how to do that, and I know the vast majority of people here are capable of such because I have witnessed it, beautiful things happen in terms of sharing and learning. When they don't remember to do that, edits have to happen. It's just the way things work.

I would just love it if people remembered the old adage "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar". Make sure the other poster intended offense before you take any, and then rise above and don't let them get the reaction out of you that they wanted. There is nothing "purely positive" about this forum, there is a mix and I am GLAD about that. It wouldn't be possible for me to learn from someone who only knows the things I know, believes the things I believe and does the things I do.

Extremism comes from every point on the spectrum...even in the middle.

Dog_ma

Posted : 8/7/2008 5:49:28 PM

tessa_s212

Reload all you would like, but I will have no weapon in defense.

the extremist mindset people have become a victim of.

because I do not see myself posting too heavily on this forum in the future.

I still cannot help but to laugh

Disdain is a weapon, m'dear.

And irony is always amusing - starting a thread to berate people for berating people?

- - -

To be (slightly) serious for a moment, I don't care much about balance. I care for tolerance. Short of extreme and harmful stuff, I have no problem with person A being way over there, person B being way on the other end, and person C being out to lunch. It may not mesh with what I think or do, and I like to discuss differences, but I don't think everyone needs to be in the middle. "Moderation in all things, including moderation" and all that.

*hands Ron his milk*

DPU

Posted : 8/7/2008 5:59:32 PM

If you want to change an unwanted behavior, a negative behavior and you use a correction, a negative method, doesn't two negatives make a positive. Whereas, if you want to change an unwanted behavior, a negative behavior and use a positive way, does a negative and a positive together cause a conflict. Oh, so confusing, best to tend to the dogs basic needs, move on to the higher level needs of social learning, building a relationship and trust and then the need for training using either way diminishes.