Suggestions for Coke ** NILIF people look at pg 5 **

Is it possible that he was 'protecting' Kenya in any way?

I really think that if a dog is truely fed up - he'll tell the other dog so. I try not to step in, unless I really have to. Then I just hold the dog with me for a few seconds to let him 'chill out' and relax for a minute.

Does Kenya tell Coke what to do?  If he's then with a more submissive male he may be trying to be a bit dominant and running amok if the other dog doesn't give him boundaries?

calliecritturs

Does Kenya tell Coke what to do?  If he's then with a more submissive male he may be trying to be a bit dominant and running amok if the other dog doesn't give him boundaries?

Sort of, I guess.  They've always played the same way:  Coke goes up to Kenya and does annoying things like play-biting her shoulder, pawing her face, or jumping in the air.  Then finally Kenya gives in a play bites back, either his neck or a hock.  Then they chase each other a little bit.  Either Kenya chases Coke and catches him, or Coke chases Kenya and she eventually stops and turns back onto him.  Then Coke rolls over for Kenya and they play-wrestle.  Sometimes it ends with her sitting on him.  Then she gets off and starts walking away, but Coke runs up to her and starts it over, biting on her and jumping in her face.  He is always the one on the "bottom", but is has never seemed to bother him.  Nine times out of ten, he's the one that instigates it and he goes right after her again.

Justin does seem very submissive.  He comes in with his tail wagging and his head down, I think sometimes he pees too.  When he and Kenya play, they mostly wrestle and bite on each other, but you can tell the bites are very soft.  They don't growl or anything and if one dog stops for a drink, the other respects that.  When Coke came in he just started knocking everyone around like bowling pins and just would not let up.  I want Justin to give him a good snap or something but instead he kept trying to walk away which just made Coke go after him more. 

erica1989

Is it possible that he was 'protecting' Kenya in any way?

I really think that if a dog is truely fed up - he'll tell the other dog so. I try not to step in, unless I really have to. Then I just hold the dog with me for a few seconds to let him 'chill out' and relax for a minute.

I don't think so, they've played in three packs before and usually if any dog needs a "time out" it's Kenya b/c she can get very "herdy" (very quick, chasing dogs down and gripping on them).  Funny now Kenya is the one we trust with all the other dogs and Coke I have to watch out for....

I did pull him off, it took a few minutes to get ahold of his hips (collar grab could have turned out bad).  I let Kenya and Justin play but then they'd run past Coke, he'd lunge on the lead and get even more frustrated.  In the past he has gotten a little frustrated when on lead and constantly being pulled back.  I wouldn't call him reactive, at least not yet, but I try to avoid letting other dogs play and forcing him to be held back.  He wouldn't chill out so I put him in the car. 

I think maybe Coke was frustrated and had a lot of pent up energy from watching the dogs and not being allowed to join in. Kivi is only a puppy, but at puppy class if he wants to play and doesn't get an outlet for that and it keeps building up and his frustration grows, when he finally does get to play he goes over the top and is too rough with smaller puppies. When left to play when he's ready for it, he's much nicer and more considerate. I reckon you might have expected too much of Coke too soon. If you want him to be patient, maybe just demanding that he be as patient as you want him to be right off the mark is a bit much for him. Try building him up to it. Make him practice patience rather than diving right into it. If he comes on too strong, maybe try less patience next time until he's comfortable with more teasing. 

I think Coke just has a way of playing that Kenya can deal with that other dogs may not know how to deal with unless they react like Kenya. He's boisterous, for sure.

Can you get obedience in the middle of play? Will he break off "bumper cars" with a recall?

ron2

Can you get obedience in the middle of play? Will he break off "bumper cars" with a recall?

Absolutely not.  Coke's goal in life is to run away from us, he thinks it's hilarious and the most fun thing ever.  If he gets off and he knows he's not being held back, he is gone.  Absolutely no treat, toy, or game in the world is more precious to him than running apes*** through the neighborhood.  His foster family had the same issues.  We think it's b/c he was tied out or turned out in a yard all day with no interaction so as of yet he still has very little reason to believe people care or are exciting and he's used to being left to do whatever he wants outside.  Indoors he's a pretty good dog.  We do recalls everyday, it's literally the only thing we work on with him, but he just knows when he's off leash.  At home he has to be on a long line b/c we don't have a fence and live less than a mile off the busiest street in the state.  He does his recalls great when he's on the line, but when we take him to larger fenced areas to practice it's total hit or miss, and if a new dog is involved it's total miss.  That's another reason he had time out in the car.  If he's going to be a bully AND pretend no one else exists, he does not get to play, period.

This sounds so similar to Rafe.  It all depends on who he's playing with, though.  At a year and a half, I think he's just starting to try out the dominance things with other dogs that he's playing with.  Before I'd had no problems and good let him play with virtually any dog, but here lately I have to be pretty picky.  And, like you said, it's not that he's really trying to hurt the dog, it's just that he's so rough and never lets them get a breath.  I've tried letting him play with my trainer's dog Diva, a GSD bitch who is very dominant, and she definitely put him in his place.  But the only problem with that is that it doesn't transfer to other dogs.  He just goes on doing his body slams (and when he gets them down, he doesn't let them up!).  Unless he's with a more dominant dog, that's what he does.  I've come to think that the only good solution is to just only allow him to play with dogs with more dominant personalities, but then this can be a problem, too, because he will still test the waters and see if he can be dominant, and with some dogs like Diva that can get him in trouble.  He and Diva had a pretty big scuffle the first few seconds they were let out together because he was trying to assert his dominance and Diva isn't a dog that tolerates that kind of thing. 

So, all in all, I think what you're going to need to do is just be a little more picky about who he plays with (if this becomes more than a one-time occurance).  I'd try letting him play with the same dog when he doesn't have so much frustration built up, but if he keeps doing it, I think that's really the only thing you can do...  :/  I've been looking into it more, but I still haven't found any better ideas.  If you do, keep me posted!

I've also thought that it may possibly be a phase, especially since both Rafe and Coke are basically the same age.  Maybe they're just coming into that age where they start testing all the other dogs they're around, so maybe they'll eventually grow out of it?  *crosses fingers*  Yeah, I know, wishful thinking... 

Cleo is trained to "Leave it" with the hounds. I had to teach her this because she neck bites Ellie and Ellie WILL NOT correct her. Susie will, tho...most sternly. LEAVE IT...means leave the dog alone and walk away...anywhere...but away. I taught this with a lead and body blocking. She is quite submissive to me, and got it pretty quickly.

She fixates on the hounds...and really...I think would like to stop every motion they make...almost like a controlling herding behavior...so this was necessary. If the hound will tell her off she will abide by that but she is far too big to allow hassling any smaller dog that won't tell her off.

I use LEAVE IT and and if she being particularly snotty I will follow her as she leaves it and stare at her and she will lay down and stay put as long as I am standing within eye distance of her.

It's not perfect but it works in the yard.

I sort of do what Gina does.....I verbally correct/noise aversion when things are a little iffy.....in my situation where new dogs are brought in every so often the pack status can change ....not for Rumour, our oldest GSD....but, there is some rumbling going on in the lower ranks until pack status has been established again.....Coke is getting older,also, the honeymoon stage is over....lol(I call that when a dog fully comes out of his shell after adoption or rescue)....and now, when running into more submissive dogs than him he will try to gain status over that dog.........you always have the option of showing him that his behavior is not appreciated, I am not really for removing the animal if things get a little hairy, nothing to be learned by that.

snownose

I am not really for removing the animal if things get a little hairy, nothing to be learned by that.

What do you use?  Verbal corrections or commands don't work in these situations; he was yelled at previously so now that means nothing to him.  He's a great example of how harsh methods and tying a dog out all day get you a dog with no interest in minding humans.  IMO, if he refuses to obey a command or correction, then he gets removed, short of another solution that works.  It may not resolve the bullying issue, but I will not have him ignoring me especially at the expense of the other dogs who are playing nice.  I think play and socialization is important but if he decides to recall only at home than he doesn't get to play.  The problem is the way he was treated by his previous owners.  Nothing I do gives him any reason to listen.  They were harsh with him and left him out alone all day so now he's used to being outdoors and doing things his way.  We've even tried leaving him out alone (while we peek through the window) thinking maybe he'd realize it's no fun without his people, but he doesn't care, he lays in the grass or finds things to sniff. He's not a demanding dog at all, but when he is outside he thinks the world belongs to him and he could care less if you dropped dead so long as there's something else to sniff or look at. Indoors he's a good dog and we do some NILIF though most times he doesn't make trouble.  

The dogs get vocal when playing, even when playing nice, plus they are running around on a big field.  I'd probably have to fire a big gun just to get his attention, let alone hold it. 

Verbal corrections work really well with Kenya, even moreso than a physical correction (if I say a "no" like I mean it she stops on a dime and drops to her belly so she is very easy to control around other dogs, thankfully).  Coke is just not at all like Kenya or any of the GSDs we work with, even the rambunctious young ones.

Since DH is technically responsible for the majority of Coke's training and socialization, I told him he can come to class for once and see what he thinks.  Another tangent to the problem is that I am working full time AND assume almost all of the responsibility for all 5 animals plus whatever fosters we have (the fosters are always my responsibility since I choose them but DH wanted a dog that would bond more closely with him so I want to make sure he is involved with Coke).  Thank God Kenya is reliable off lead and generally doesn't care about other dogs enough to approach them (there are some dog-aggressive dogs at our training classes and of course it seems they are the ones the other dogs want to sniff).  Last night when we arrived it took two of us to carefully get Coke out of the car with out letting him pull away or squeeze past and escape.  We finally had his leash on and had him under control and I remembered Kenya....she had let herself out of the car and was just sitting by the training building, waiting for her cue.  She probably wonders why we even bother with Coke!

WorkingDogLover - Coke will be 2 next month.  Maybe he should play with Rafe, lol.  I need to find a more dominant dog buddy to put him back in his place....

Maybe next week I can make a video clip and show you guys how differently he plays with different dogs. 

Have you tried play as a reward using his favourite toy?  Increase the value of the toy by confiscating it and ONLY bringing it out when you play with it WITH him.  Increase its value even more by playing very short and very exciting games with it and getting it out and playing when he is already revved up.

Could you run through the recall tactics you've used?  Recall is pretty much key.... crack that and everything will fall into place.

Liesje

What do you use?  Verbal corrections or commands don't work in these situations; he was yelled at previously so now that means nothing to him.  He's a great example of how harsh methods and tying a dog out all day get you a dog with no interest in minding humans.  IMO, if he refuses to obey a command or correction, then he gets removed, short of another solution that works.  It may not resolve the bullying issue, but I will not have him ignoring me especially at the expense of the other dogs who are playing nice. 

What I use depends on the character and interaction of the dog....and mostly how long he can pay attention....is it long enough to be able to teach something? These are all the things I try to assess......you know as well as I do that GSDs are really easy when it comes to training......now, Huskies and Husky mixes are something else....they are basically the kings of wanting to bolt and not looking back.....in such a situation I try to find something that the dog likes a ton and combine it with making myself real interesting to the dog....even to the point of acting goofy at times, so they keep watching me......I play silly games that will have me running from them with a favorite toy and encourage them to follow me.....and they do out of play, jumping in the air, clapping my hands to give the dog the idea that there is a fun time to be had instead of running away, and then I start incorporating training, like recall and such........keeping things peaceful between dogs is done in a smaller area at first.......letting them loose in a super large area is not a good idea if Coke has no interest in listening to you or even ignoring you....smaller areas first, so you can bodyblock if necessary and use noise aversion (something the dog needs to respect first for it to work), or even recall if you can get it to that point....then graduate to larger areas........this takes some time, so, don't give up........also, alone training time when it comes to loading and unloading the dog seem to be in order.......