Well-Behaved (Taught), Well-Trained, and Relationship - ???

The key word here, IMO is relationship.  Relationship  is based on communication.  Training is a large part of this.  And that is how we get our dogs to be well behaved.

FourIsCompany

Well-behaved - Knows a few basic commands and performs the commands 70-80% of the time and behaves well in the home 99% of the time. Doesn't get on furniture, chew inappropriate items, escape boundaries, counter-surf, get in the garbage, bark for no reason, jump on people, has no aggression and is perfectly trustworthy to leave alone outside of a crate for many hours.

Emph added by me.  Dogs like that are trained, not born!  Teaching a dog not to chew your shoes or bark incessantly is still a form of training.  IMO the most important training that happens with a dog has no verbal cue most of the time.  If thats all you want to do as far as training goes, thats fine... its a pretty big "all"!  Dogs don't have to be "well trained" (your definition) in my opinion.  In fact, a dog can go his whole life without even knowing "sit"!!  As long as he knows enough to live in harmony with his family and gets adequate stimulation one way or another, what more would you want of you were a dog? 

I LIKE training.  I like teaching the dog something new and I like seeing his eyes light up when we start a new project or when he "gets" what I want.  Training is fun.  I lament that I have less time for it now.  I find that it is the easiest and simplest way to commincate what I want in any given situation.  And having an instant down or excelent recall is so much peave of mind.... lots of dogs manage without, but just knowing it could save my dogs life is enough to inspire me to train my dogs.

 Dogs are masters of understanding human communication.  Low-drive, pack-oriented dogs will often appear to train themselves about basic house manners, because they respond to human feedback.  A person can be involved in training a dog without ever consciously realizing it.

Dogs train us, too.  We learn about their likes and dislikes, and respond.  When a person hides the garbage, we call it management, but we may as well say we've been trained to hide garbage in order to avoid the unpleasant consequence of trash on the floor.

I'm using the word train rather loosely, and not in a strict operant conditioning context.  Operant conditioning is, ultimately, a model of learning.  The map is not the territory.

I grew up with an "untrained" mild mannered lab mix.  She didn't know any commands, and would raid the trash if given access, but all in all she was a pleasure to live with.  I think she a prime example of a low drive, pack dog.  She had her little mischiefs, but otherwise she adjusted to being an enjoyable house dog with NO official training at all.

 I think that the answer will be different for every person. Some people want a well trained dog but doesn't necessarily need to be well behaved. Others will want the opposite. And some will want both.

I fall in the first category - my dogs are well trained but not well behaved. I could work on the behavior more but I guess I just deal with their flaws (and my own). As long as they listen to me 90%+ of the time and our relationship is good, that's all that matters to me. 

Not to cop out but I think everyone's right.  I often look at some of the training threads and think "eww, do they have a life??" -- not condescendingly - simply because it's NOT me.  I'm completely the opposite scenario from Jewlieee -- mine need to be well-behaved, darned near 100% of the time. And we're always watching to keep it close to 100% -- but I consider that training.  Every single day.

Now mine know some of the formal commands -- like sit, etc.  We take them thru at least basic obedience and as far beyond that as we can.  We strive for each of ours to have their CGC eventually.

But stuff like rally and that sort of thing?  It just personally leaves *me* cold.  I'm not in the slightest a competitive person.  I never watch sports on TV and I don't like contests.  We've attended rally classes and I flat hate it. 

I don't condemn it at all -- some folks and their dogs LIKE it.  And that's fine.  But we do pet therapy so our emphasis is different for the stuff WE do. 

It's all training -- and a large amount of it is furthered by formal obedience classes. 

But our goal isn't for them to simply perform in a class -- the goal, for us, is the day to day behavior and behavior in therapy situations.

But Carla, I think this is a great topic because I do think some folks could benefit from realizing this is just yet another "difference" in how I deal with my dogs from perhaps how they deal with theirs. 

Perfect example -- Luna's my "hound mix".  She's incredibly nose driven and she's one of those rescues who lived the first 9 months of her life being yelled at by someone who didn't have a clue and she was a total wild child when we got her at 9 months.  Sweet personality but the idea of actually doing something that a human TOLD her to do was ... 'Huh??? whatchu talkin about??? Are you lookin at ME???'

We have a fenced in yard that's about 1/3 acre -- but I found out quick that she had to be on leash out there because she'd run and run and run despite the fact that *I* had to be at work. 

She's much much better -- and yes we've done long leash training, etc. but we just haven't had the time in the past 18 months because of our schedules to do nearly as much obedience class as we'd like.  She's been with us 2 1/2 years and most of the time **at this point** she gets to go out without a lead. 

However ... if I know I'm going to work in the next half hour, SHE IS ON LEAD.  In fact, if I know I absolutely have to have her in immediately -- she goes out on leash.  Because he recall isn't great yet, and the most of that is because when she has a choice where she thinks *maybe* she might get  disapproval -- she almost always chooses wrong.  If she thinks she's displeased you she'll freeze - or run away.  That's mostly a hangover from those first bad 9 months of hers where I'm convinced she got beaten badly for ticking the human off. 

So I simply prevent her from "choosing wrongly" -- If she's leashed there's no question.  I'm not saying that to say I don't train her or that we'll stop working on this.  It's management. 

But it's also training in the fact that I don't ever allow her to 'do' something that will reinforce bad behavior.  In other words -- if I don't think she'll 'come' in a given circumstance I don't let her run free so she *can* refuse to come.  I consider that part of 'training'.

Do I make sense?

FourIsCompany

If I have him on a leash when legally required (which is outside of my property) is it necessary that his recall is 99%? Is it okay if he doesn't want to come to me sometimes? If "drop it" and "down" are solid (99%) does he really need to know spin left?

I guess my main question is: If my relationship with my dog is great (very satisfying to me and seemingly so to him) and he is very well-behaved, should I also require him to be well-trained? If so, why?

Have you read Suzanne Clothier's Bones Would Rain From the Sky? If not, I highly recommend it. On one hand, she's the antithesis of Cesar, but that's not why I think you should read it - it's a simply beautiful, magical book, one that will make you laugh and cry and want to hug your dogs. It's not a how-to training manual, it's a celebration of dogs. Her training philosophy is all about the relationship, and I think you'll enjoy that aspect of the book. One thing she's really clear about is that everyone should train their dogs to the extent that makes sense TO THEM, based on their lifestyle and environment. That's not going to be the same for everyone. You get to decide what is most important to you and your dogs and you should spend the most time working on those things. If perfect leash skills are not really necessary for your dogs and not particularly important to you, fine. If a perfect recall isn't important to you, fine. If you don't care about tricks, fine.

I totally agree with you that hiking, games, and other fun provide mental stimulation, and are rewarding for the dog. And I also agree with Chuffy that a certain amount of "well behaved" is a result of training, whether it's formal or not. Just because they don't know a bunch of obedience commands doesn't mean that you haven't been training them all along. Another thing Suzanne believes is that every moment you spend with your dogs you're teaching them something. Just because it's not deliberate and intentional doesn't mean they're not learning. "Leadership, expectations, rules, corrections, praise, love and attention", and how you use these things when interacting with your dogs are training them to live harmoniously in your world and behave to your expectations. The relationship dictates behavior, and often when people are having problems with behavior she recommends going back to the foundation and fixing the relationship rather than simply trying to address the behavior.
 

For me, I want a well trained AND well behaved dog. The relationship is very important to me, and tantamount to achieving my goals of training and behavior. But I don't train them simply for the sake of training, I NEEDED a certain amount of obedience on Dena before we could get into agility. The goal there was to do something fun with my dog. Period. No aspirations for competition and titles.If we got good enough and were both having fun, I wasn't going to rule it out, but that was never the goal. I didn't get her as my "agility dog", and if she never gets good enough to compete I don't really care because she's simply a terrific dog and I love her to bits.

Because I live in a densely populated area and have a tiny little yard, I have to take my dogs out in public for play and exercise. We're fortunate that we have several choices of large, multi-acre off leash parks we can go to. Because my dogs are going to be off leash a lot, and around strange dogs a lot, I need them to be very social, and I need them to be reliable off leash, so those are things I've focused on - extensive socialization, attention work, and developing a relationship where they want to be with me and want to obey me. Neither of them are that great on leash and that's totally my fault, not theirs. I have been working on that recently with Keefer and making great progress, but because I don't routinely do leash walks with them, the majority of my training focus has been elsewhere, on the things that are important to me based on our lifestyle.

When they were both young I did a LOT of work with them, teaching sit, down, watch, find it (look for treat on the floor), touch (touch nose to palm, a targeting exercise), leave it, come, and simply rewarding them for looking at me. I also practiced strict NILIF. Training around the house was almost always off leash so I had to work at making it fun and interesting - there was nothing to prevent them from wandering off if they got bored, or chasing the cats instead of working with me. My approach was strictly positive - I wanted to teach them why they should WANT to obey me, not that they had to, "or else". By the time they went into puppy class they were noticeably WAY ahead of the other puppies, I got comments to that extent from other owners about both Dena & Keefer, and they were both used often by the trainers to demonstrate new skills. Because of that training, and NILIF, which helped teach them self control and establish my leadership role, they are also well behaved under most circumstances. 

Are they perfect? Absolutely not! Getting them not to jump up and kiss people is still a work in process. We don't have company over often, so my opportunities to work on this have been limited. I know I need to invite people over with the specific purpose of working on it, and just haven't gotten around to it. But as problems go, it could be a lot worse. They love people, and that's not a bad thing as far as I'm concerned.

I love these responses! You guys are so smart! LOL

Chuffy

Teaching a dog not to chew your shoes or bark incessantly is still a form of training.

I see that now. I see what you mean. I do differentiate the two, though. One is teaching and one is training (to me) just so I can say what I'm talking about, you know? But yeah, I could call it all training, and it is all a form of training, I just put different words on the different types of training, so I'll be clear with what I'm talking about.

It seems that some use the term "formal training" for what I mean when I say "training". 

Dog_ma

Dogs train us, too.  We learn about their likes and dislikes, and respond.  When a person hides the garbage, we call it management, but we may as well say we've been trained to hide garbage in order to avoid the unpleasant consequence of trash on the floor.

That's great! I love it! LOL It's true!  

Dog_ma

I'm using the word train rather loosely, and not in a strict operant conditioning context.  Operant conditioning is, ultimately, a model of learning.  The map is not the territory.

You know, I'm sure I use operant conditioning in all my teaching and training, too. I mean, they do something, I respond. I just don't think about which quadrant it's in. As long as the message gets across, I don't care what my response is called...

calliecritturs

Not to cop out but I think everyone's right. 

LOL So do I. I don't think there is a right or wrong. I was hoping to see if people understood where I was coming from with this. And I think it's clear we've all had some of the same feelings and thoughts in our journey in figuring out how to deal with our dogs.

calliecritturs

Do I make sense?

Perfect sense!

Cassidys Mom

Have you read Suzanne Clothier's Bones Would Rain From the Sky?

No. I have 4 books going at the moment. But it's one I want to get. It sounds great.

Thanks for the input so far. It's really great!  

for me, i prefer my dogs to be well trained, but i don't disregard the need for them to be well behaved. i compete, i enjoy competing, and i strive for high scores. for my purposes, well trained -- sits, downs, perfect heeling, sit fronts, retrieves, etc are a must. i can mask poor behavior through their obedience training. my dogs haven't learned not to jump on people, i have learned how to anticipate the jumping and issue a sit command before they get off the ground.

when i teach, i am teaching people who want pets that are easier to live with. for them, i emphasize well-behaved. they don't care if the dog isn't at heel, as long as he isn't pulling on the leash. they don't care if the dog doesn't do a down stay as long as he isn't counter-surfing. some dogs are more naturally inclined to be well-behaved, and require little in the way of training.

FourIsCompany

If I have him on a leash when legally required (which is outside of my property) is it necessary that his recall is 99%? Is it okay if he doesn't want to come to me sometimes?

i believe all dogs should have a solid recall or a solid emergency down. leashes break, collars break, dogs escape by accident. beyond that, it depends on the owners personal goals and needs.

corgipower

for me, i prefer my dogs to be well trained, but i don't disregard the need for them to be well behaved. i compete, i enjoy competing, and i strive for high scores. for my purposes, well trained -- sits, downs, perfect heeling, sit fronts, retrieves, etc are a must. i can mask poor behavior through their obedience training. my dogs haven't learned not to jump on people, i have learned how to anticipate the jumping and issue a sit command before they get off the ground.

corgipower

for me, i prefer my dogs to be well trained, but i don't disregard the need for them to be well behaved. i compete, i enjoy competing, and i strive for high scores. for my purposes, well trained -- sits, downs, perfect heeling, sit fronts, retrieves, etc are a must. i can mask poor behavior through their obedience training. my dogs haven't learned not to jump on people, i have learned how to anticipate the jumping and issue a sit command before they get off the ground.

If my relationship with my dog is great (very satisfying to me and seemingly so to him) and he is very well-behaved, should I also require him to be well-trained? If so, why?

I think training and the relationship you develop goes hand in hand in order to have a well hehaved dog. 

I think there is a difference between trained and well behaved. I have seen a few well trained dogs that when home are not well behaved. They know the formal commands or the agility course but they are out of control when at home.

 So to me in order to have a balanced dog you need some of each with emphasis on behaviour and then how ever much formal training you want. For some that is come, sit, and maybe a stay or a wait, for others it will envolve precision heeling and more.

 I think we teach our dogs daily, some train them as well. I see a difference between the two.

 Everyone has said some really great things that tell us a lot about them as a person and what's important to them as a dog owner. I think it's one of those things where it's purely an individual thing.

Me, I expect my dog to behave wherever we go because I like to have her around and I love doing stuff together. I can't do that so much if she's running all over the shop doing what she pleases and embarassing me. I feel very acutely that her behaviour is a reflection on me. If she's being a brat, then I feel in the wrong and that I need to keep her under better control. I'm a stickler for manners and being considerate, and a considerate dog owner, IMO, is one that makes sure their dog isn't annoying anyone. To me, a well-behaved dog is one that isn't annoying anyone.

Training is similar, but a I see where the distinction lies for Carla. There's training for the purpose of having a well-behaved dog, and then there's training for the sake of training, and a highly obedient and reliable dog is a goal in of itself.

I don't have the patience for precision training. I just want my dog to be reliable enough to take places and do things with. She sometimes decides she's not going to come back right now and that's okay with me. Sometimes she pushes the boundaries a little to see what she can get away with, and that's okay by me, too. Sometimes I reward her efforts and sometimes I don't because she's an easy-going dog and I can do what I like, really. I do enjoy it when she's a teensy bit, harmlessly naughty, though. I've always had a soft spot for spunky, cheeky animals and it was her cheekiness that made me pick her out from her littermates. If you like that kind of thing, you can't be too picky about obedience and reliability. Because of that, I think it's fine if someone doesn't want to train their dog because they have no problem with its behaviour. Why fix something that isn't broken? However, if someone else has a problem with the dog's behaviour, I think it should be trained whether it bothers the owner or not. That's just being considerate and responsible.

As for breed, my dog has certainly learnt with ease over the years what constitutes good behaviour and what is bad behaviour. She is quite driven to be the best dog us humans could want and is therefore VERY good at working out what we mean and what it means to her even when we are making no effort whatsoever to teach or train her. I don't know many dogs as alert to human nuances as she is. She has trained herself to be well-behaved to a certain degree. She can get her way from all but the most intent dog-dislikers with a mixture of tactics, some of which she doesn't bother to try on me anymore.

I think the point someone made that training is a form of communication and relationships are all about communication is very true. There is a link, there. In the end, I think it's all about what you want from your dog and what you want from your relationship. The degree of training or good behaviour you have will indeed reflect what you put in and what's important to you. There are no wrong answers for that.