ball-drive

espencer

Now that we clarified that you actually put "something" on your dog's neck (regardless if he is 4 months old or older) and the point is not if you should do it to a puppy or wait for him to be older.

Yep, I put something on my DOG's neck.  Not on a little puppy just starting to build drive (actually, most people do just use collars throughout puppyhood so I am not convinced that it is "dangerous", but I personally was not comfortable with it). So what is the point then?.....

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Edited by Jaime

I'm not against leash corrections, sheesh.

tex, here is a vid.  With little puppies we do something similar, but use a ball on a string rather than the bite pillow.  Keep it low so they aren't jumping while they are still small.  You'll have to be a bit more animated than the helper in the vid, this pup has already been exposed to that stick and everything else.  Just wiggle the ball around and jerk it away.  As I said, I prefer a harness on a puppy (but in the vid the pup is wearing an agitation collar, and you can see a few times she is snapped around...I personally use a harness until the dog is done doing these exercises and is actually offered a bite each time the toy/sleeve is moved within reach, as espencer has so helpfully illustrated in my photos).  With a really tiny puppy you don't really need to back-tie or someone to be the post because you can just wave the ball around, but with an older pup or adult the back-tie or having someone be a post is helpful for control, especially when the dog figures it out and still needs practice targeting, that's when they bite your hands!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYYuhI8gCCY

This is the ball we use, they come in different sizes; we started with the small and now use the medium because the small is too risky for choking.  My dog went from having zero interest in balls (around 3-4 months) to now being a ball drive, chasing, fetching maniac.  Be careful what you wish for! lol

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Edited by Jaime

espencer

Liesje

I'm not against leash corrections

I would have sworn that you did but i would keep that in mind for the future. So once again, does not that exercise hurt their necks? Is not teasing the dog counter productive? Do you think it could become aggressive because of it? (just like kids teasing a dog from the other side of the fence)

 

Well your questions sort of imply that you've already made up your mind.  Maybe start another thread on the topic or go to a working dog forum and ask these questions or do some research on the sport and the training.  Prey drive is not the same as aggression.  That's probably the most fundamental misconception everyone makes about these dogs and this sport.  You're talking about a bunch of different things, teasing dogs, barrier aggression, prey drive, leash corrections....there's not really an answer to your questions the way you are asking.

As I already stated I have never heard of a dog being injured by back-tying when done correctly.  I asked the same thing when I was told to back-tie my dog and the answer from people who have been in the sport for decades was the same thing, not when doing it correctly with a healthy dog. 

IMO some leash corrections are far worse because not only is a dog lunging forward but the handler is yanking back.

espencer

How much that can hurt the dog's neck?

I would guess as much as all that equipment Chuck is wearing bothers him. Looks really heavy, and cumbersome too.

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General note,

Stay on topic...and avoid baiting or grilling other members. Legitimate questions can be asked in appropriately placed and titled threads. Leave personal issues and prior arguements OUT. This thread...is to remain on topic.

Thanks all.

Thanks Lies, that was what I needed! I will use a ball on a string. I am embarrassed for not thinking of it myself. BTW I also use leash corrections when appropriate. I try to associate corrections with somthing positive like giving a series of quick, light corrections as the puppy is running toward a ball, etc

I have never heard of a dog being harmed by a leash correction, in spite of their being a hundred-plus Lbs. of pressure on the DOGS neck during bite work. Dogs are not human, also their necks become accostomed to corrections

Thanks again, I may even use a rag to start with, then a ball-on-string, then ball....have to go now, will see yall tomorrow. GREAT PICS! thanks. 

I started with rags because my dog preferred them (actually it was a leather rag on a flirt pole).  Once he had a lot of confidence, knew how the game worked, and could be worked in drive, I switched to the ball (literally threw the rag away and only presented the ball).

It sounds like the tiny corrections you giving when running toward the ball is more like a nagging, which in some dogs is used to also build drive.  A lot of drive building is simply frustration.  That is why sports like SchH clearly weed out the clear-headed dogs, the ones that are not unnerved by frustrations and work through them to get what they want.  I don't know that I'd used this strategy very early on, first you want the puppy to want the ball.  Once he wants the ball you can back-tie longer until the dog is showing you higher drive, or nag a little bit.  I don't want my dog to become acustomed to a correction because then it doesn't mean anything.

Liesje

As I already stated I have never heard of a dog being injured by back-tying when done correctly.  I asked the same thing when I was told to back-tie my dog and the answer from people who have been in the sport for decades was the same thing, not when doing it correctly with a healthy dog. 

IMO some leash corrections are far worse because not only is a dog lunging forward but the handler is yanking back.

Like back tying, leash corrections when done correctly, no dog should be hurt (as you know since you also use them). A leash correction done when the dog is lunging forward is already pointless.

I never said prey drive = aggression. I use a flirt pole with Chuck but i would think that a flirt pole does not promote a level of frustration as back tying could.

espencer

I use a flirt pole with Chuck but i would think that a flirt pole does not promote a level of frustration as back tying could.

It's the exact same principle.  All the back-tie does is give the person control.  When you get to a certain point, you can't be doing it safely without restraining the dog with a back-tie or another person.  It has taken me months to learn to use the ball correctly and safely with the amount of ball drive the dog has.  A flirt pole is actually even more spazzy for Nikon, that is why we tossed it and started on the ball.  Drive is only useful for training if you can cap it and bottle it.  Now we are considering using the ball only for certain things and trying a less interesting tug.