Breeding.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Breeding.

    Where can i find an accurate good breeding book for papillons? And how early can I start breeding a dog?

    • Gold Top Dog

     I wouldn't, and don't approve of, anyone breeding a bitch younger than 2.  On top of that you should make sure that your dog has had all relevant health testing for the breed.  Books I'd imagine you can find on Amazon or through your breed club.

    Your dog's breeder will be a wealth of knowledge here, from the specifics of breeding a Papillon to how to make sure that she is worthy of being bred, through assessments from people in the know to getting started showing in conformation.  Showing a dog to make sure it is breed-worthy is a must, IMHO, in all breeds except those who do actual jobs and are thus bred first and foremost for working ability and physical soundness.  Papillons are a companion breed and do not "work" so a conformation ring is the way to go.  You can find information on entering shows on the AKC website.

    • Gold Top Dog

     Be prepared for some flaming when you come here with this question! 

    First off, WHY do you want to breed your dog?  Is he/she a registered (with the AKC, UKC or Canadian Kennel Club, not a fly by night registry like the Continental Kennel Cub)?  Did s/he come from a reputable breeder and NOT a pet store or back yard breeder (BYB)? Has your dog had all of its health tests and had its hips certified as at LEAST "good" by the OFA? Has your dog been shown and been titled in one or more places--conformation, agility, obedience, etc.?

    Secondly, have you visited a shelter lately? Shelters are crammed with dogs, both mixed AND purebred that are in desperate need of home.  Before you say that Paps are never in shelters, check out Petfinder and see the multitudes of Paps already waiting for homes.  Have you attended a euthanization for unwanted pets?  Yes, purebreds are euthed every day in thsi country.

    Do you hope to make money from your assuredly wonderful pets? Responsible breeders do NOT make money on litters; many actually LOSE money on some litters.  Are you aware that is can be painfully expensive to whelp a littler of puppies? If the bitch needs a C-section (quite common in some breeds) it can be a several thousand dollar proposition and the bitch (and puppies) may STILL die. Even at $2500.00 a pop, if a bitch has one puppy and needs a C-section, you will LOSE money on the deal.Bitches also need special nutrition and supplements when they are pregnant and whelping. This is an additional expense.

    How old are your dogs? A bitch should NOT be bred before she's two years old and, with some toy breeds, even later than that.  To have a early litter is akin to teenage pregnancy--it IS possible, but NOT a good idea. Don't forget that there is health testing for STDs before a breeding occurs.  Puppies can die if the bitch has contracted herpes and other diseases are a problem as well.

    A responsible breeder has a waiting list for puppies BEFORE A BREEDING IS EVEN PLANNED.  You say that all of your friends want one of Fluffy's pups?  You would be surprised at how quickly people decide that may not want one after all. Also, responsible breeders take back their dogs for the animal's ENTIRE life if something doesn't work out.  My dog's breeder has taken back dogs that are seven or eight years old and they have lived with her the rest of their lives if a good home can't be found for them.

    Are you aware of just how much WORK a litter is?  Even with a good mother, you must change bedding daily, mop and disinfect several times a day, socialize each and every puppy, etc. If the bitch dies, you will be doing round the clock feedings and wiping bottoms to stimulate their bowels and clean up after that.

    What do you know about genetics? Are you aware that there are health issues with each and every purebred breed (as well as many mixes) out there? For example, did you know heart defects can be passed along? Do you realize that dogs who are mostly white are prone to deafness? Are you aware that hip dysplasia can be passed on?

    Please think LONG AND HARD before breeding.  It is something that, if done correctly, is a LOT of hard work and needs to be undertaken with the expectation that you will not get rich from it, you may not even break even!

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Your dog should be no younger than 2 and have passed all the health clearances pertaining to her breed.  You should probably contact your breed club and find someone to be your mentor.  Getting answers from a book or random people on the Internet is not the best way to start a reputable breeding practice.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Edited myself.

    The only advice I have is listen to the advice given to you on this forum....these folks defiantly know what they're talking about!

    • Gold Top Dog

     Don't be put off by the responses you get here.  We have a lot of people here who are interested in responsible breeding, and they want to make sure you are fully aware, capable, and well educated before you try your hand at breeding, especially since you own a toy breed (they are notorious for having problems with the birthing process).  I noticed from another thread that you are interested in showing your dog.  Why not go to www.akc.org and visit the breeder referral area - find a breeder near you who might be willing to take you under their wing at the shows, and for the purpose of educating you on proper breeding practices.  This is more important than just getting a male and female and putting them together.  You need to be concerned about the health and temperament of both dogs, and you need to be responsible enough (and financially able enough) to deal with some of the unintended problems - such as veterinary costs when something goes wrong, puppies not surviving, those you sell pups to wanting to return one (eithical breeders are responsible for the pups they breed for life, not just until the new owner's Visa card clears).  So, there is a lot to learn, and to think about.  www.wonderpuppy.net has some good articles on responsible breeding versus backyard breeding.  I advise you to get very well educated before pursuing this particular dream.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Moderator request...

    Preemptive perhaps but...just a general request to keep this thread constructive. The question asked might be asked again in future and having this thread stocked with good, relevant info will be very helpful should that occur.

    Thanks all!

    • Gold Top Dog

    You can't find a book to tell you what you need to know.  Find a mentor in your chosen breed.  This would be someone with tons of experience in that breed.  We all think are dogs are the cutest, best dogs in the world but that doesn't mean we should breed them.  You are probably suffering from puppy love and need to slap yourself a few times. LOL

    • Gold Top Dog

     Contact breeders in your area, see if they can let you "shadow" them during a pregnancy to see what is involved. The best resource really is a person, not a book.

     http://forum.dog.com/forums/p/81748/638742.aspx#638742      ----> Has your financial situation improved? Breeding costs a great deal of money, from stud fees to health checks on the dam, to possible C-sections, emergencies, and neonatal veterinary care.

    I agree that dogs should not be bred at less than 2 years of age.


    • Gold Top Dog

    If you are really interested in doing it right, maybe start with a male?  I don't know if I ever want to breed or not, so I got a male.  That way I don't have to deal with a bitch in heat, and I can go through the process of training him, showing him, titling him, getting the health certs, passing breed survey, etc and if he IS breeding quality then maybe my breeder/friend can breed back to him.  People keep asking me if I'm going to breed (as if fancying a breed automatically means you want to BREED them) and I say I don't know, right now, no way!  By owning a stud I can go through the process with the dog but not be repsonsible for the pregnancy and the litter....yet.

    • Gold Top Dog

    You've already gotten some excellent advice.  The only thing I will disagree with is changing the bedding daily.....I've never had a litter that didn't require MANY bedding changes per day.

    This is not for the faint of heart, so think very long and very hard before you get started.

    • Silver

    There really isn't any such thing as a breeding book for Papillons, or any breed for that matter. There are books on each breed, but truthfully they do not tell you what you need to know to be a breeder. 

    Each breed has their share of genetic problems. A breeder should take all possible precautions to avoid producing puppies with things like vision problems, bad knees that need surgery and cause arthritis. So there is a lot of learning before actually breeding. The only way to truly learn all the ins and outs is from other Papillon breeder(s) who are truly dedicated and have spent years learning.

    There are books on breeding, but they are generic to all dogs. There is a thread in this section with lots of resources posted. It's called Links and Books. Too bad it's not pinned so it would be the first thing you saw in this forum (hint hint hint!)

    • Gold Top Dog
    I have no idea where you are located. Your best bet to find someone educated in breeding papillons is your local breed club. I would start by becoming a member there and starting to show your dog in something. Paps should be in conformation and preferably something else. They excel at agility, obedience, tracking, rally, you name it. PRA screening and OFA for patellas are both required as the most minimal amount of testing to do. Be aware that they are prone to birthing problems and may need a C-section. The most important thing in this breed is maintaining their wonderful companion temperament- lively, friendly and never aggressive in any way. Try getting your dog evaluated by people that know the breed. It's a great breed, but there are a lot of people breeding it for not so good reasons these days. We've been involved in the breed for 5 years now, and we still have yet to breed our show dog. We may never, who knows?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Hey thanks for all the advice everyone. But I just want to say, I absolutely LOVE my little pap, and I would never want to harm her or do anything bad for her. It's not like I'm entering into this lightly, and I'm not only fixated on breeding her. I was only asking out of curiosity how early paps could be bred. I am planning on sitting down with a breeder I know and discussing with her about the issue. I don't however think that I will lose money, or if I'm lucky- break even. If she has health problems during the pregnancy and so on.. That may come up. I will expect it to happen, but I'm not so sre that every litter ever born has not made money for the breeder. But, just so everyoe knows- this will be a plan that I will take time to consider. Lord willing, It will work out. Thanks again!
    • Gold Top Dog

    it's really easy to loose money on a litter.  I had a cocker who had a litter of two.  The pups were too big, obviously, she couldn't deliver them without help.  Trip to the vet, xrays, injections.....then all the normal costs associated with a litter, plus all the genetic testing on momma and dad before the blessed event.....and only two pups?  Oh yeah, I went in the hole on that one.  And since both of the pups were "just" pet quality, they went for less money than a show quality.

    Honestly, if you are doing everything right, and breeding for the betterment of the breed, doing all the showing, testing, etc, you don't make money on a litter, and if you have circumstances like above, it's easy to LOOSE money.  However, if you are breeding for the right reasons, it really isn't that much of an issue.  But, it is something that has to be kept in mind.