Hypothetical?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Hypothetical?

     I'm not going to do this, but need the info. anyway. My BFs aunt is giving up being a BYB, after her parvo incident. Heres the story: She has 5 females, that she used for breeding to her one male, she is getting rid of the females. They have lived their entire life outside in a kennel, the only human interaction was feeding time, being told to "Quiet", baths, cleaning of the kennels. No walks, no indoor time, you get the picture. If I were to adopt one what should I be aware of. Besides being spayed and Housetraining 101. The girl that I "might" be interested in is very shy, she was totally overpowered by her kennelmate. She usually just layed in the corner. By the way, they are PWC.

    • Gold Top Dog

     The big thing I can think of is finding a trainer who's experienced in dealing with dogs from that situation to help ease her in to society. She'll need alot of work (which you already knew Smile )

    • Gold Top Dog

    For info specific to Pembroke Welsh Corgi's you might contact a rescue group:
    http://www.petfinder.com/awo/index.cgi?location=Tacoma%2C+WA&keyword=corgi

    Puppy Mill Breeding Dog Rehabilitation - do's and don't's

    http://www.illinoissheltierescue.com/puppymillstory.html
    "When Rescue gets one of these dogs, we have many issues to overcome.   First and foremost, we must test temperament.   Dogs that are THIS terrified and will generally fall into one of two catagory's.  

    1. They just emotionally shut down from fear.   They will go stiff-legged from fear, and can most often be handled.    OR
    2. They are so scared they will bite when handled.  

    Sadly, due to obvious risks, we no longer will try and rehab dogs that will bite.  

    So....When you adopt a "mill dog"  just what can you expect?    Here are just a few things:

    • They are NOT excited to see you.   They are not used to being around people.   Your "touch" is terrifying.  Some will shake violently from fear.  Others will defecate from fear.
    • They have never been outdoors, seen sunshine,  seen an airplane, or seen a car or truck drive by.
    • They have never been in a house, heard a television set, radio or a phone ring.
    • They have never stood on grass or carpeting.   (and it is usually frightening to them at first) 
    • They have never ridden in a car. 
    • Large, open spaces scare them.  They will try and seek refuge in small dark places.   You may have to forcefully pull them out of their crate.
    • They only time they may have been handled by a person is to:  tattoo their ear, shave them down, or "pressure hose" them once a year.   (the law in some states requires these things)
    • They have never walked on a leash.   (many have never had a collar on)
    • They have never seen nor learned how to climb stairs.  
    • They have no idea what "treats" are.   (a very useful thing when training)
    • They have no idea how to drink from a bowl.
    • Most of these dogs have splayed toes from standing on wire for years. 
    • Most are out of shape and fat from no exercise. 
    • They will NOT come when you call them.   In fact they will do all they can to get away from you. That is why a fenced yard is so important for these dogs.   Here in rescue, we must often keep the dog on a leash IN the fenced yard, so that we may catch the dog when it is time to come back in the house.   A mill dog loose in a fenced yard can be impossible to "catch".
    • They do not know their name   (Most are only known by a number tattooed in their ear)  
    • And IF the dog has been traded or auctioned to a different mill, often the ear tip is just "cut off" to remove the tattoo from the former mill, and a new tattoo is placed in the other ear.
    • Oh....and NO, they are not housetrained.

    Fortunately, most dogs are friendly by nature and want attention.   So these dogs DO respond well to kindness and love.  .......   it just takes a lot of time and patience to gain their trust and teach them how to be a house pet.    We DO begin training as soon as we get the dog in.  However, this rehab process can take about a year to complete.    These dogs will turn around, and they eventually do become more normal.  But it takes a lot of time and patience. "

    • Gold Top Dog

    Remember not all of these will apply in the case of a dog which has simply been undersocialized.  Possibly, since there's a natural difference between this dog and her mates, you may also have to work with a temperament that's naturally reserved also.  This was true of my old Ben.  Of all his littermates (EXACTLY the same circumstances), he was the least forward. 

    But underneath there was a really sweet dog hiding.  His difficulty was a natural desire to please and months of being ignored had made him extremely uncertain about how to fulfill that - obviously nothing worked with his caretakers so he stopped trying.  To his sensitive, eager-to-please nature, neglect and unthinking physical handling was precisely the same as outright physical abuse and he slipped into true reinforced inactivity or what is more often called learned helplessness.

    It sounds like this little dog may suffer from this same situation as well.   I would be unlikely to be able to tell you even seeing the dog in person (though I've learned I do have a good sense for seeing the "real dog" inside learned behaviors), but it really wouldn't hurt to offer to foster and see how far you can get with a clicker.  I wish now I'd had someone to give me the full lowdown on marker training then.  I was in too much of a rush to go from the first glimmers of "acting normal" to "doing stuff" and missed laying some middle ground of creating a habit of looking to me for guidance in tough situations.

    When I got Ben it was nearly 12 years ago and the most positive training out there used choke chains and treats (choke chains were considered more humane by trainers who simply used the sound of the chain and the slight tightening as a negative cue - I'd liken it to e-collar trainers today who mainly work with the "pop" setting on the shock collar).  Ben wouldn't get near your hand, much less take a treat - he wasn't even interested in food, actually - he associated it with people leaving and it was years before I could get him to more than pick at his food as a result.

    My training world, limited as it was, fell to pieces!  And this was a BC, supposedly easiest dog in the world to train! 

    Then I suddenly discovered though that a word of praise, casually given, would make him repeat, as though on accident, whatever he happened to have been doing.  So I started doing it deliberately.  If he came out from under the desk, I'd say, "There's a good Ben!"  If he came to the doorway I'd say, "Lie down!  Good lie down!  What a good lie down!"

    I had discovered what I'd later learn was called "capturing."  It worked like a charm.  If I'd had a wonderful guide like those out there now for clickertraining, Ben would have had a very different first three or four years, including - yes including! - his first sheep training.

    I just thought I'd throw that out there.  Mostly because I wanna talk about Ben, darn it.  LOL  I hope this little girl finds a place - I'd be all over it if I weren't on the other side of the world.  :( 

    • Gold Top Dog

    My answer would be....who knows?  Sometimes kenneled dogs have difficulty adjusting, other times they are just fine and can be nicer in the house than a dog who was raised in the house.  When I volunteered at the shelter it seemed the worst cases were always the most resilient and well adjusted dogs. 

    One thing I would be prepared for is separation anxiety.  It sounds counter-intuitive since the dog lived isolation from humans, but the last neglected, kenneled dog I brought inside had instant separation anxiety and would not be crate broken.  If she was left alone, she needed to be in a kennel like how she was kept before, or she would totally flip out (rip her paws, gums, face, etc trying to "dig" or push out of a crate).  The howling was awful and she would start freaking out even if I just moved to another room for a minute.  I guess the poor thing was so starved for attention, once she was in a home she couldn't bear the possibility of being abandoned again. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    honestly - you wont know until you have the dog home.

    Most dogs in these situations adjust well - but it takes TIME. Many feel more secure in their kennel, and do very well with crate training. You have to let them adjust at their own pace - don't baby them. They will come around, and they will probably bond to one specific person.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Again, another great example of how you never really know until you've had the dog home and worked with him or her for a while.  My experience has been about a third with and two thirds without on separation anxiety.  This is about the population norm in response to trauma (not the previous experience in the kennel, but the change to a new very different environment).  So my feeling is that it's likely an interface between circumstances and the dog's natural temperament.  For instance, 100% of the German shepherds and mixes I've ever fostered had SA.  So it's my thinking that there's a possibility that something in the makeup of GSDs lends itself towards SA.  BCs are less so, but when they do have it, as usual it seems like there's no holding back - it's very dramatic! 

    Going back to my experience rehabbing Ben, he always adored his crate.  I actually tried for years to get him to sleep on my bed, or a nice bed on the floor, or anything but a crate - but almost three years ago I figured out how to make us both happy.   I set up a soft crate that had the door ripped off right by my bed.  The crate looks nice and has a soft pillow in there in the winter (he preferred smooth cool sleeping surfaces in the the summer).

    One thing that made me immediately unhappy was the fact that this crate is now unused.  Well, Lynn was previously a great example of what you describe - a dog with separation anxiety because she was deprived of human company in her early life.  She hates crates and cries if she's put in one.  I've literally never kept her in a crate for any reason except "time outs."  She has always been such a good pup in terms of chewing, being house clean, and such, that she never needed a crate! 

    The night after Ben died, Lynn slept in his crate.  No dog had before that.  But that day, one dog after another went in that crate (Maggie first), and spent a few moments in there.  Lynn went in last, that night.  Ted didn't for some reason by the way - didn't get the memo, I suppose, lol.  Since that day, Lynn sleeps mostly in that crate.  So I've started feeding her in there and I'll leave it where it is.  And Lynn has no problem with crates now, either, I discovered the next time she had a time out.  I just looked at her and she went into her time out crate and laid down, all on her own.  ROFL!

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje

    One thing I would be prepared for is separation anxiety.  It sounds counter-intuitive since the dog lived isolation from humans, but the last neglected, kenneled dog I brought inside had instant separation anxiety and would not be crate broken.  If she was left alone, she needed to be in a kennel like how she was kept before, or she would totally flip out (rip her paws, gums, face, etc trying to "dig" or push out of a crate).  The howling was awful and she would start freaking out even if I just moved to another room for a minute.  I guess the poor thing was so starved for attention, once she was in a home she couldn't bear the possibility of being abandoned again. 

    Very similar to my Benny.  Raised from a pup in a kennel situation (in a petsmart for the first year and something of his life) and brought to my home at a year and 8 months old.  It took 8 months to house train him and probably 10 months before I could trust him to hold it without an accident.  So I would expect house training to take a looong time.  Also, the separation anxiety is crazy.  It's not so bad as liesje experienced, but he does howl and pace when I leave him alone or with DH.  He does not want to be without me.  He will most likely be crated his entire life when I am not home.  Luckily Benny had a lot of human interaction, but unfortunately no children were involved in that, so that is something we need to work on.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Then again, you have the same thing - a lot depends on the dog, and the exact circumstances, on whether the dog will catch on to houseclean habits quickly or take some training or whether it's a long battle.

    An itty bitty dog has physical size and toy dog nature running against it already.  The ultimate housetraining horror is a mature toy dog that has been kept in a cage for the majority of life. 

    Caged dogs either do well or don't depending on whether it was a set up where waste could drop through, or whether the cage was kept very clean.  Not all commercial breeding operations are horrors of filth, some, really most, care for the dogs well - it's not in their interest to have infecitous disease running rampant among the breeding stock.  Tthe pups are less of an issue - mom cares for them for the time they have them, and then they are someone else's problem.

    Kennel dogs may or may not do well.  These can be among the worst whether big or little dogs, if left in a kennel for a long time with deep accumulation.  Ben came from this type of situation and had besides a quirk in his nature which made it hard for him to ask to go out.  He much preferred to be with me even if it made me mad to see him squat right on the carpet in front of me.  I could not say that he was ever truly reliable in the house, though he was a house dog 100% his whole life after his rescue.

    Some kennel dogs, however, if allowed to keep a clean area in their kennel, or if their kennel was kept clean, housetrain almost instantly.  Similarly, dogs kept as outside dogs almost always can "get it" right away.  I had a rescue who was kenneled on dirt, never touched except for the most basic needs, totally feral acting.   It took me a week before she'd willingly take a step into the house - she had to be carried or dragged to get her inside.  But once inside she NEVER had an accident. 

    To her, dirt and grass were the potty place - pottying on these strange surfaces was unthinkable!  you get that about as often as you get the ones dfficult to housebreak.

    • Gold Top Dog

    brookcove
    Kennel dogs may or may not do well

    I meant to add in something like this.

    Many 'kennel' dogs feel more secure in their crates - but it does NOT mean they will be crate trained. They have come accustomed to potty in their sleeping area - and depending on age, it's a hard habit to break.

    We're seeing much of this with our puppy mill dogs - some house trained the day of, and other STILL aren't - months down the line.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Not so hypothetical.........I would LOVE to adopt one of those Corgis.I wish they were closerCryingOur Westie was a breeder female and while it did take some extra time to housebreak her she eventually became a wonderful house dog.She was a bit more shy than other Westie's I've met though.

    Tena