Ticks!

erica1989

is the new stuff your vet is going to have you try called Promeris? http://www.fortdodge.eu/promeris.asp 

Since this product is new, let's look at it one step at a time.  First, it is made by Ft. Dodge and those are the folks who make ProHeart6 and ProHeart12 and still market those products outside of the U.S.  That alone does not mean that this new flea/tick product is bad.  It just means that I look extra hard at all of the details.

NOTE:  For those who are not familiar with ProHeart, it is a shot that puts 6 or 12 months worth of heartworm pesticide into a dog's system in a so-called "time-release" form.  There is no antidote!  If the dog is sensitive to the product or if the time-release mechanism fails, you are out of luck.  Many dogs died or had their health permanent damaged.  Some dogs tolerated multiple shots before their kidneys or livers gave out.

• ProMeris Duo is the only product available from a veterinarian that contains the active flea control ingredient, metaflumizone.
• This new compound features an exclusive mode of action that attacks fleas’ nervous system by blocking neuronal sodium channels, which results in paralysis and death of the flea.

• In addition to metaflumizone, ProMeris Duo for dogs contains a second active ingredient, amitraz, to provide broad-spectrum control of 5 tick species 

Amitraz(link) is not new.  It is in Mitaban dips and Preventic tick collars.  Read the info on the link I provided and decide for yourself if you want to touch a dog with this product on its skin.  I don't.  However, one should note that this link only talks about the dips and the collars.

 Okay, so if we can't use Frontline Plus, and this new stuff can be harmful?  What do we do?

"Okay, so if we can't use Frontline Plus, and this new stuff can be harmful?  What do we do?"

Thats my thought too. I'm at a loss. I can't have him covered in ticks, but I don't want to harm him either.

Oh man, I wouldn't TOUCH anything with amitraz in it.  LITERALLY.

Amitraz is the same thing they have used for many years as a farm pesticide and in the "mitaban" dip they used to use on demodex dogs.

It's a MAJOR carcinogen. 

But it’s problems don’t stop there.

AS an owner you can’t handle it if you are diabetic or if you take MAO Inhibitors like prozac or any of the sertonin type drugs. It messes with the insulin levels in the body (and if the dog has diabetic type problems it can kill)

Man – it’s ILLEGAL in about 10 or more states to even give it to humans to dispense to their dogs. I can’t even imagine them putting it in flea stuff. Let’s compare that to using a car crusher when a tack hammer would do??

I used amitraz for years on my dog Muffin the Intrepid back when it was the only thing you could do for demodex (and before I learned all I had to learn to help him). And guess what – Muffin wound up with cancer – IN HIS FEET - and he stood in amitraz dip way more than he should. And me? Yep, I was rubber gloves to my armpits but I inhaled it and wound up touching it, etc. so *I* am still looking over MY shoulder for side-effects.

We keep using bigger and bigger and bigger pesticides and insects and parasites just keep getting more and more resistant.

After reading about it I don't think I want to give this to my dog, but what should I give? Should I stick to the frontline? Are there any other things I can do to keep them off him?

Callie, do you have a resource stating that it's a known carcinogen? I checked cancer.org for the list of known carcinogens to humans and did not find it on that list:

http://www.cancer.org/docroot/PED/content/PED_1_3x_Known_and_Probable_Carcinogens.asp 

Carcinogenic Effects

Long term feeding studies show that amitraz is not carcinogenic in rats. However, it can cause tumors in female mice (8). Amitraz causes an increase in tumors of the lungs and lymph nodes in female mice, but not males, at 57 mg/kg/day over 20 months. A two-year study of female mice also showed an increase in tumors of the liver (hepatocellular tumors) at 57 mg/kg/day of amitraz (4, 5). Because amitraz causes cancer in female mice, but not male mice or male or female rats, it is unclassifiable as to human carcinogenicity (10).

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/amitraz-ext.html 

Honestly the answer is more work intensive.  It's using things that bugs don't like -- like herbal sprays and even old Avon Skin So Soft added to a spray -- it's combing them EVERY night after they've been out. 

It's feeding them better so their immune systems are better and their bodies don't 'call' to the parasites. 

I don't think I could feed him too much better than I already do without switching to raw completely which I'm not ready to do yet.

I will look into avon skin so soft.

 The more I read about it the more I think that it might be ok......will take more research though

Fate in Humans and Animals

Available data suggest that amitraz, following absorption into the blood, is not readily absorbed into tissues, and is mostly excreted unchanged via the urine (2, 4, 8).

I had to switch Kord or frontline back in February, it was not working on him at all, had 2 flea's living large in a happy boy zone....blech.

I use K9 advantix on him now and it seems to word decently enough.

My vet carries advantix, but didn't recomend it. I will have to ask her why.

I'm going to talk to her more tonight about the new stuff. She is using it on her own dogs so I want to talk to her more about it.

 I'd be interested to hear what your vet has to say about both products. I have used Advantix without problems, but after researching I'm a bit iffy on the ingredients. This summer I switched between Frontline Plus and K-9 Advantix (2 months of advantix mixed btwn months of frontline dosages).

rexandbaby

Okay, so if we can't use Frontline Plus, and this new stuff can be harmful?  What do we do? 

Fighting fleas & ticks is a four-step process.  You avoid the pests you can, repel the pests you can't avoid, kill the pests you can't repel, and remove ticks (alive or dead) that haven't fallen off.

Frontline does not repel!   It unfortunately does not kill ticks as fast as it does fleas.  However, it takes roughly 24-48 hours after attachment for the tick to transmit a disease.

Here are a couple of sites on natural flea & tick repellents. Repellents can be put on a bandana, a vest, booties, etc. if you don't want the aroma on the dog all the time.
          http://www.holistichealthtools.com/fleas.html (fleas and ticks)
          http://www.flutterbyearomatics.com/flutterpooch/flea_tick.htm (fleas and ticks)
          NOTE: "natural" = herbs and essential Oils

A good tick remover helps, too.   http://tickremover.com

          Available in the U.S. at
          http://www.tickman.us/servlet/StoreFront
          http://www.ultimatepetproducts.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=upp&Product_Code=trixtick&Category_Code
          http://www.swedenova.com

CAUTION:  Kill ticks by dropping them in alcohol.  Squashing them can spread disease.  Flushing them down the toilet will not kill them.

A product called Garlic Barrier (http://www.garlicbarrier.com) can help to keep ticks out of yards.

Here is a site on Lyme disease prevention (http://www.lymefight.info/prevention.html)- basically just ideas on how to avoid/get rid of ticks.

Plants that repel ticks: Pennyroyal, Sage

http://www.gardensalive.com/article.asp?ai=568&sid=140643

Daminex (or Damminix) Tick Tubes are little cardboard tubes filled with dried cotton balls that have been soaked with a 7.4% concentration of permethrin. Field mice—the most reliable source of the ticks that carry Lyme disease—take the cotton back to their nests to use as bedding, where the permethrin kills any ticks that come into that nest. Sold in sets of 24, the tubes are available at some retail outlets, and you can order them on the web at http://www.garden-shops.com/ticktubes.html, or by calling a very dedicated supplier toll-free at his New England B& B: 866-401-9455 (“Chase House”). 

But she doesn’t feel the tick tube cotton balls will cause cats any such problem; the dose of permethrin is much lower, and it isn’t actually applied to the mouse. Likewise, she has no problem with the home-made ‘tick-proofing mouse runs’ we described last year, where you line the inside of a pipe with fabric treated with a .5% clothing spray (or Garden's Alive "Pyola", which is also a .5% concentration of permethrin when mixed with water at the recommend level) to give any mice that hide inside a de-ticking. “That low a dose is very safe”, she says.

But she adds that she also simply prefers fipronil (Frontline) to permethrin as a flea and tick controller. In fact, were it not a violation of Federal law to recommend any non-labeled use of a pesticide, we might even suggest using a drop of fipronil on cotton balls or pipe lining instead of permethrin. Unfortunately, that Federal law prevents us from making such a suggestion. Ahem.

If you decide to mix your own permethrin from concentrate, use gloves!!!!  I don't want information that I provide to put any of our forum members in the hospital. 

Jewillee - it used to be right in the literature that came with the bottle of Mitaban, to be honest.  It told you flat out it was a carcinogen -- however, I'm not talking about it being an ORAL drug.  NOOOOO it's topical.

And it wouldn't have been a known carcinogen for humans -- because it's applied to the skin of the animal (cow, pig, dog, etc.) However the list of "don'ts" was HUGE -- and in particular it specifically told you that you, the human, should *not* handle Mitaban (amitraz) if you were diabetic and/or taking MAO Inhibitors. 

this isn't a 'holistic' thing -- this is stuff that was right in the literature distributed from the manufacturer AND it's what's at the bottom of the fact that several states (last I knew Michigan and Ohio were first on the list) that just plain forbids it be distributed to the owner -- that any treatment with amitraz has to be done BY the vet. 

I don't have any of the old inserts because I haven't used it in 4-5 years, but further down it went into a lot of detail about the effect it has on the insulin levels in the body, and it also cautioned against using it at all on animals that were potentially diabetic.  But it carried a strong caution against humans coming into contact with it (particularly while it was still 'wet';) who were diabetic or took the MAO Inhibitors. 

I used ProMeris Duo on the dogs at the beginning of the month with no problems & no ticks. 

Frontline makes me break out for 3-4 days after application, & Advantix doesn't work, so I'm grateful to have another flea/tick control option.