A Vicious Cycle - Time for Change?

Kim I agree with you, altho I am not (for all of these very reasons) active in the Training areas.   I'm active in Health as well, and that has gotten far more heated than it should.

I also moderate another very small board, and I can tell you that from word #1 the baiting that goes on here simply would not be tolerated.  It wouldn't be a decision of the mod, or the other posters, it would simply be a decision of the owners and those folks would be gone. 

Why?  Simply because it's just plain not nice.  You can disagree with someone and maintain a nice tone.  You don't have to be ornery and ugly.  You can say "I just don't agree" and then walk away. 

The things said in the name of humor fall very flat with many mostly because <<>> this is the written word.  I can type the words "I love you" and I can read them nice, sly, sarcastically, mean, angry, sexy, and every other adjective on the planet.  I may ... or may NOT ... be able to ascertain the intent of the poster by what else was said.

Ten years ago on another board I learned a huge lesson.  A woman posted "I am having difficulty in finding my wired haired terrior ... someone please help me!!"

Ok, I'm American.  I ASSUMED (note the first 3 letters of the word + U + me??) she was being funny that her terrier was a "terror" and she'd led her on a merry chase that day.  I responded with something flip about her 'terror'.

I got blasted to smithereens.  She was Australian -- "difficulting in finding" -- the woman was looking for a breeder.  "my wired haired terrior" - meant she was looking for a particular dog to love that was a wire-haired terrier EXCEPT they spell it "terrior".

She found NOTHING amusing about my post.  She was hurt.  She was LIVID and accused me of being all the worst that non-Americans think of Americans.  Frankly, I was upset because I didn't intend to hurt anyone.  

I actually took several weeks and we "took it to email" and I made friends with her.  Just because I felt bad that I'd been misunderstood.  But I learned a WHOLE LOT about how easy it is to be mis-interpreted and frankly, how bad you can damage the reputation of a messageboard in the process.

Dog.com gives us free space here.  A messageboard is not cheap to maintain ... and it IS private property. 

Unfortunately a lot of folks seem to think it's "ok" to vent their spleen and just say whatever in the interest of "discussion".  But frankly, they don't give a flip most of the time about how it looks to other people.

If you want to convince one particular person about your point of view TAKE IT TO E-MAIL.  But by being mean, nasty, snide, sarcastic, and generally self-serving do you think you convince ANYONE you're right?    You don't.  Most people who might be interested in a basic discussion get completely turned off and leave.  Some folks stick around simply to watch the fireworks much like they might watch Jerry Springer or worse.  You don't honestly think they respect folks speaking with such basic venom do you?  Probably not. It's simply cheaper than cable.

Some folks get hot -- I have myself.  It **feels** like if you don't respond and get your answer in that somehow you are cowardly or worse, you're going to leave them feeling like they somehow 'won' and their negative comments will stand.

It isn't.  They didn't.  Just walk away.  Those who get nasty won't stick around if no one flames with them. 

I can tell you something tho -- flaming kills messageboards.  Deader than doornails.  It killed the old Acme Pet.  It has killed lots of others. 

Guidelines are simple.  My mother taught it to me when I was 3.  (Granted that was 50+ years ago, but it still works.)

If you can't say something nice to someone just don't say anything at all.

I don't mean complimentary.  I mean simply being civil.  I fail to understand how being cutting, nasty, snide, sarcastic, wounding and generally nasty convinces anyone you love your dog 'more' anyway.  It's my experience that the person who gets really nasty and blows up online, likely does it in person.  With their spouse.  With their family. With their animals.

So just plain be civil.  If you are typing it with your hands shaking in anger -- get up and walk away.  Think about it.  Think about it if it was said to you.  How calm would you be?

 That is.... I'm assuming everyone intends to be decent. 

But the reality is, there are folks on here who simply love a good fight.  It stokes them ... it gives them something to do.  It makes them feel important and needed.  If they don't *find* it here, they'll go elsewhere.

They may actually be nice folks "in real life".  But push comes to shove, they get their jollies by stiring things up online. They think it's harmless. 

Dog.com is a business.  They're out to make a profit.  If hits fail and continue to fail as I know they are ... they'll cut their losses and ditch the board.  No one has any rights or ownership here unless they get a paycheck signed by Dog.com ... and even then they take orders just like I do from my boss.

Just my nickel's worth. 

Well, maybe it's just me, but I have learned quite a bit from this section.  I have no problem when people disagree on a subject because that helps me to form my own opinions.  If I wanted one answer to an issue, I'd just google it.  I'm here because there are a number of different perspectives from people I can actually interact with.

I don't consider myself part of a "group," so IMHO it would rather suck to have it split like that.  Where would people like me go?  

There does seem to be a lot of tit-for-tat, my-dog-is-better-than-your-dog (whenever I read those threads I'm reminded of that really old dog food commercial), my-method-is-better-faster-ha-ha, etc going on around here lately, but honestly, those people that participate in that just make themselves look like asses--give enough rope and they'll hang themselves eventually.

To me, this is no worse than anything in the past, and is in fact better.  I can see how you would be annoyed by it all though Kim--especially considering you have been singled out.  I belong to another board that has pretty much no moderation and one particularly nasty member.  She literally goes out of her way to be extremely nasty and the mods don't do a thing about it.  The absolute MOST effective way to deal with her is complete indifference.  Even if she is insulting, degrading, and attacking someone totally innocent the most effective way of dealing her is to just not respond at all.

I know that seems like lame advice, but seriously, it works.  If someone is totally picking at you and you simply continue with the thread as if nothing has been said, what is that person going to do, say it again?  Fine, they'll just make themselves look more ass-like than before and you will look like the bigger person, particularly in situations where the person obviously has it in for you and you are not going to convince them otherwise and nothing useful would be gained by answering (yay for run-on sentences).   There is a good quote that applies to situations like this (not just aimed at Kim, but everyone), "Indifference is the strongest force in the universe. It makes everything it touches meaningless." 

There is never going to be complete agreement in a section like this, but you are right---there is no reason why we cannot all behave like adults.  And if there are some individuals who cannot seem to get through a thread without getting down and dirty?  IMHO, the only lasting way to deal with them is to make their tauts, jabs, ugliness, etc--well--meaningless.......
 

I'm not sure what new changes you're referring to, but I haven't noticed a big change lately. Sure, discussions ebb and flow and get testy with the full moon or whatever, but I wouldn't say it's any worse than it has been at other times since I've been here. Granted, that's only been about 6 months (I think).

As regards the same old topics... it's true, topics get discussed over and over, but new members come in all the time. So these topics aren't old to them. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I HAVE learned quite a bit here. I had no idea about certain things before I came here. So, even if it is sometimes unpleasant, it's still educational, in my opinion.

A section like the Behavior section is for people who have problems with their dogs, but it's also for discussing philosophies and debating them. It's not always going to be a bowl of cherries. People disagree or get their feelings hurt and they strike out. It happens. But I think the mods are doing a really good job in handling that when it happens.

I disagree that we, as a group, must do something to change the situation. We are each responsible for what we say. That's the only person we can change. And it's the only person we should change. And I definitely think that the segregation of styles is a big mistake.

What we need to do is be able to discuss what each of us believes. IMO, if everyone would just back off a little as regards controlling what others say and even think, it would move a lot more smoothly around here. If we could all just give our opinions and not have someone jump down our throats for feeling that way, a lot of issues would get ironed out.

If you feel things getting out of hand, for you personally, I would suggest a break. That's what I do. I have been singled out, too. I just go away for a few days and I'm reminded of what's important in life. There are a lot more important things in life than having a bunch of people I don't even know read my opinion about something.

I think the solution "as a group" is for each individual to be responsible in their communications and ignore the unwanted behavior. 

 I think it's possible to argue, to challenge, to learn, and to debate without baiting, insulting, or being rude.  I'd love to see this area be a productive place where people can disagree without being stomped on by others, and where all opinions are valued.

I am really not inclined to stifle conversation, and I'd rather not edit anything.  This morning, I had to perform more post edits in an hour than I have done in total in the past 2 months.  That saddens me, because I know members here are capable of better, but I also know this board is what members make it.   As much as the other mods and I are here to watch things, the fact that we *can* edit doesn't mean that members don't have a responsibility to gauge their own posts, when in fact they do. 

This section, and all the other sections, are and will always be the sum total of the people who contribute to it.  Whether you want that total to be, quite literally, in the red or in the black is entirely up to everyone hitting the "post" button...including me, when I post in here just as a member with too many thoughts in her head.  

I will say this - those who want to cause trouble anywhere on this forum do so with varying degrees of severity...from spammers to outright trolls and everything in between, and those problems are not unique to this forum.  I do believe that everyone who causes real problems on a message board (and I am not talking about a thread that starts innocently and goes downhill, but those who make it go downhill) on any subject does so intentionally. 

sillysally

I have no problem when people disagree on a subject because that helps me to form my own opinions. 

Same here, I have no problem when people disagree either! It's when simple disagreement gets turned into personal problems or assumed meanings when there was no inherent meaning at all.

sillysally

don't consider myself part of a "group," so IMHO it would rather suck to have it split like that.  Where would people like me go? 

*G* I don't belong in any group either. Or, as I have joked before, I'm my own group....lol. I gather my philosophies from a wide diversity of sources, so I'm not trying to single people into groups (I think most know that, I'm the last person that would group people). I don't necessarily wish to group people, but rather group topics a little more than they already are?

Some folks get hot -- I have myself.  It **feels** like if you don't respond and get your answer in that somehow you are cowardly or worse, you're going to leave them feeling like they somehow 'won' and their negative comments will stand.

It isn't.  They didn't.  Just walk away.  Those who get nasty won't stick around if no one flames with them. 

sillysally

I know that seems like lame advice, but seriously, it works. 

sillysally

"Indifference is the strongest force in the universe. It makes everything it touches meaningless." 

You know, I really correlate these things to my own philosophy. If you ignore the behaviour, the behaviour will eventually become extinct. I've said that before, but sometimes I need to remind myself that it works on internet forums too. Thanks for that reminder, I appreciate it (sometimes it DOES take somebody repeating that to you for it to kick back in again)!  ;-)

I've never interacted on a forum that had these types of conversations and nit-picking, and I have been on boards that contained some very juicy contraversial discussions, to be honest some issues a lot more wishy-washy than this. I just find it really surprising to see these types of reactions and behaviours.

I too have particiapted in some online altercations and have recently resolved to take everyhting with a grain of salt. I think if we kindly remind ourselves and others that a lot can be taken out of context when writing online it may proove helpful. There is no direct solution to hinder the rudeness of other people....its just not possible to demand someone use respect. However yoru reaction to their view is the only thing you can control. Some things that I found that helps me is......

 -If someone says or gives advice you dont like you DONT have to reply to them. Kindly ignore and address those whom you think you could benefit from or help out.

-Dont get a case of "keyboard courage", too many people say things online that they'd never say face to face to a stranger.

-Keep in mind that the mean person may just be having a bad day. I know it does not give them a right to be rude but we've all had those days and we have no idea what goes on in their home life.

-If someone postes a opinion I dont agree with I have a choice to not put my two cents in....pick your battles.

-On that note if i have a method or solution that conflicts with someone elses I try not to "down" their method but  I say " what worked for me" or "thats great advice and here is a alternative if that dosnt work" The poster is free to choose whichever method they thinks might work best for their dog. I try not to get offended if they dont choose mine.

 -Which brings me to......differnet methods work for differnet dogs and families.

Keep in mind this is a public forum.....a direct product of the melting pot of a world we live in. There are private forums where rules are more strict and may suit your needs better. Nobody should have to live up to your standard of grammar, writing skill, or share your opinions.

Also keep in mind......just becasue someone is not telling you what you want to hear dosnt mean they are wrong, lol!

None of us are perfect....I personally have learned all of the above by hurting someone's feelings or having mine hurt and I wouldnt take it back because I learned something from it. Actually I've learned most of what I know by being wrong at one point....I'm very stubborn, lol.

Glenda, RWBEAGLES, Jamie, MRV and several others have really put me in my place at times. I threw a fit at their honesty and they never backed down.........I thank them for that now and respect their experience and advice.

From what I've seen, threads about a particular issue (for example, something like "What do I do about my leash reactive dog?";) seem to generate much, much better discussion than broader, more theoretical/philosophical threads (for example, "Who's better, CM or Pryor?";). It seems to me, therefore, in the interest of peace and harmony and all that is good and doggy, we should strive to focus on the more hands-on aspects of dog training and leave the theoretical discussions out (until we can all play nicely together ).

I hate to see threads like this a lot of times (though I certainly understand why you made it, Kim) because in a way it belittles so many of the other sub-forums under the "Behavior" section, and to me, those are some of the most valuable places of all. That's where new members come to post about the problems they're having that are making them consider drastic actions, like euthanasia or taking the dog to a shelter. Often with just a few helpful posts from our members these newbies are working "miracles" with their dogs, and are suddenly the enlightened and happy dog owners we all hope for people to be.

For example (I hope it's okay I'm using names here?), I disagree with a lot of the "general principles" behind espencer's dog training methods. However, there have been numerous "problem solving threads" where he and I have agreed, or where he has posted something interesting that I had never thought of, etc. I've really learned a lot from him in those threads, and maaaaaybe once or twice he learned a tiny bit from me!

So we want to find something we can all agree on, right? Well, in general, I think we all do quite well in agreeing on this: we want to help dog owners get the most out of their relationships with their dogs. And to me, it seems the best place to do that is in some of the "behavior" sub-forums. I think one reason the more philosophical threads often "fail" is because we start getting too far removed from the "nitty gritty" of the actual dogs. When we can focus on particular behaviors/issues, we seem to do a much better job of staying "centered" and seem to be able to work together pretty nicely to offer several different approaches to solve a particular problem.

I guess what I'm saying is, just because there are a few "types" of threads that seem to always get terribly out of hand, let's not knock the whole section. It's been a long time since I've seen a really "special" thread in "Behavior problems," for example. If we as forum members can't self-moderate, perhaps we can at least stick to the "types" of threads where we can do the most good and work best together. And remember how valuable they are to new members, so don't stay away just because you're scared of what happens in other sections.

It really makes me sad sometimes to see all the fervent bickering and back-stabbing in the "philosophies" discussions while serious inquiries about behavior problems go relatively unaddressed. 

Time outs. Big fan.  

You get a warning. Ignore it - automatic TO.   

On every board I've participated, and yes some are quite intense, you don't get to ignore a moderator once he or she has said "Cut it out." Different forums handle the next step differently, including one moves flames to a subforum for flames, but the simplest way to go about things is the handy TO. Playing in the idog sandbox is not a right, it is a privilege, and if you can't keep your muddy shoes off the dining room table, eat on the floor.

I think posters here are capable of better behavior. Create expectations, enforce consequences, and contribute to the moderator tequila fund.

I lurk a lot---maybe too much---and the help I've received here has been invaluable to forming a solid relationship with my dog (yes I do own one).  I'm also guilty of getting involved in some of the sniping and I apologize.  One thing to consider, along with the information already offered, is that exchanging messages on a forum is not really the most optimal form of communication---especially with really complex, and emotional issues.  A lot of information is missing from the exchange including, body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, etc.  It's easy to misread or misunderstand some posts, especially where people develop a history of animosity, and start to approach each new post expecting to be offended or put off in some way.  It's obvious that everybody here is a dog lover and I'm guessing the discussions would be much more harmonious if they were taking place face to face---over a lot of beer.  

Dog_ma

and contribute to the moderator tequila fund.

Hey, anyone who wants to do that is MORE than welcome.   

Cita

From what I've seen, threads about a particular issue (for example, something like "What do I do about my leash reactive dog?";) seem to generate much, much better discussion than broader, more theoretical/philosophical threads (for example, "Who's better, CM or Pryor?";). It seems to me, therefore, in the interest of peace and harmony and all that is good and doggy, we should strive to focus on the more hands-on aspects of dog training and leave the theoretical discussions out (until we can all play nicely together ).

I agree, when members present their dog problem, the dialogue is very polite, civil, and very educational.  Most participants put their advice out there and let it stand on its own for the OP to accept or ignored.   

Lets not forget about the entertainment value of what is being complained about here.  If I didn't giggle every now and then, I probably would not participate or would just leave.  I know, I know, everyone has their own taste in humor but I control the scroll wheel and I use it. 

To me this thread is just another example of individual members trying to control the behaviors, posting contents, and type of dialogue of others.  Remember at one time Amstaffy was the sole Admin and Moderator and the forum's activity was much much more.  Back then it was a lot more entertaining and hardly any red ink.  For the few members that have the intention to just cause trouble there will always be more of that need resulting in escalation.  Once they have clearly separated themselves, then disciplinary action should be taken.  But so far I have not seen anyone reach that point yet.

DPU

Remember at one time Amstaffy was the sole Admin and Moderator and the forum's activity was much much more.

Forum memberships change over time...this forum is actually a lot quieter than it used to be since the change in software....however, new mods and admins were added because of a need...not the other way around.  

DPU

But so far I have not seen anyone reach that point yet.

I have.  

To touch on the subject of separating subjects...we used to have that, to a degree, when we had a section devoted to CM, and even the idea of that section, let alone the contents, rubbed some members the wrong way.  We can't please everyone, all of the time.  Trying to do so is exhausting for the staff.  There really isn't any feasible way to make this forum the "ideal" for every poster here, all we can do is set boundaries and either members abide by them, or not, and when not...take disciplinary action.  I would like to reiterate the point that membership here is a privilege...and people who abuse it will, in the end, have that privilege permanently revoked. 

Benedict

DPU

Remember at one time Amstaffy was the sole Admin and Moderator and the forum's activity was much much more.

 

Forum memberships change over time...this forum is actually a lot quieter than it used to be since the change in software....however, new mods and admins were added because of a need...not the other way around.  

I don't know about this.  If you monitor the numbers (e.g. users on-line), it looks like when mods and admins were added there is a correlation.  I don't think its the number of admin or mods, but the increase in moderating activities.  This thread wants more moderating activity and I oppose that.  The most users on-line that I have seen was this past summer and fall during the forum's greatest upheavals.  There was entertainment there, a lot of it.  We have been stale for a long time now and if there are more tightening controls on member's posts, the numbers probably will go down.  A likely scenario is as we sink in activity the moderators will look for things that may be view by others as just petty, further decreasing the activity.

I am NOT in favour of more moderating activity...I am very much in favour of people self moderating...and I am probably less sensitive that many...I go days at a time without having to red ink anyone, and I like that.  I think people should be able to air their opinions, vent their spleen...whatever.  I just think that baiting or insulting someone really isn't the best way to go about proving a point.