Redux on Behan's nonsense

 Page 6

• Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact My point is that man's ways are novel in regards to instinct. Therefore, if emotion is instinctive, there would be many circumstances in man's worlds wherein emotional affects would prove to be maladaptive. Therefore are you saying that the key to the domestic dog's social adaptability to man's ways the capacity of higher order brain functions to moderate emotional affects?

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• 12-27-2010 11:10 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  IMO, we live well together as we as species are open to social gathering.  But we do not do the same things all day.  I have to go rake the leaves, Red and Peanut get to lay in them and watch.  I had to go to work to teach and publish, Happy and Sissy stayed home and slept.
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• 12-27-2010 11:16 AM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   PoodleOwned Says: "Emotions may jst as  easily result in distance being placed between animals, and in a huge number of cases does. You can look at Lion, Zebra interactions, for example. I can't accept this a all. it seems shallow and doesn't reflect the most basic of objective observations. It does nothing at all to understandings."   Avoidance and flight is in fact best explained as a function of attraction.The stronger the degree of attraction, and Zebras are intensely attracted to Lions as they are intently paying attention at all times, then the greater the intensity of the collapse of said attraction and the greater their experience of fear. Thus they are inspired to run and otherwise maintain a discrete distance. You can test this for yourself when driving a car since emotion is a universal system of affects that runs according to an energetic logic. To avoid the sensations that would result from a collapse of the feeling of flow toward a destination (attraction) one maintains a discrete distance from other cars which is directly proportional to their fear of such sensations. Cars segregate themselves on the open highway according to the temperamental comfort thresholds that each driver has in this regard. So if one wants to know what a Zebra is feeling when a lion comes too close, just consider exactly what you are feeling (but not thinking) when another car enters your driving "bubble." (or better yet, a state trooper suddenly appears)

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• 12-27-2010 11:19 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  So then why are dogs more open to social gatherings?
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• 12-27-2010 11:21 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 13,630 Points 5,320

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:   PoodleOwned Says: "Emotions may jst as  easily result in distance being placed between animals, and in a huge number of cases does. You can look at Lion, Zebra interactions, for example. I can't accept this a all. it seems shallow and doesn't reflect the most basic of objective observations. It does nothing at all to understandings."   Avoidance and flight is in fact best explained as a function of attraction.The stronger the degree of attraction, and Zebras are intensely attracted to Lions as they are intently paying attention at all times, then the greater the intensity of the collapse of said attraction and the greater their experience of fear. Thus they are inspired to run and otherwise maintain a discrete distance. You can test this for yourself when driving a car since emotion is a universal system of affects that runs according to an energetic logic. To avoid the sensations that would result from a collapse of the feeling of flow toward a destination (attraction) one maintains a discrete distance from other cars which is directly proportional to their fear of such sensations. Cars segregate themselves on the open highway according to the temperamental comfort thresholds that each driver has in this regard. So if one wants to know what a Zebra is feeling when a lion comes too close, just consider exactly what you are feeling (but not thinking) when another car enters your driving "bubble." (or better yet, a state trooper suddenly appears)     According to what you just explained, it would appear that we humans and animals respond exactly the same way to avoidance and flight.   Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, Red Tri Australian Shepherd Mix, CGC, TDInc., ITD Sequoyah, Red Merle Australian Shepherd, CGC, ATD Quanah, Hound Mix, Great Dog in Training Dancer, Border Collie/Spaniel Mix, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog Maska, Hound Mix, CGC, TDInc. (2000-2010) RIP Doodlebug Fergie, Yorkshire Terrier (1989-2010) RIP my little bugaboo In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

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• 12-27-2010 11:30 AM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Nothing to gain by bringing in function of attraction.  Both vid speakers address the seeking affect.  There is no warrant to create new jargon.  Conscious awareness must always be awareness of some thing.  Did you watch the vid yet?  If you didn't see the vid, maybe a local library or Sean would have hi-speed access.
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• 12-27-2010 11:37 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  The energetic principles of emotion are exactly the same across the animal kingdom, (attraction, collapse, flow, grounding, etc.) However when most species experience a collapse, the intensity of the sensations overwhelm their emotional capacity to feel and then genetically encoded hard wired patterns are triggered and this is one level of response. So for example, when a gull chick sees the red spot, its state of attraction collapses into a pecking instinct. So we see animals segregated according to environmental niche. Thus an organism can respond by instinct, highly conditioned habits, thoughts in the case of humans and perhaps primates, and then I am adding, they can also respond by feel.

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• 12-27-2010 11:54 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact The problem with the word "seeking" is that it is not very precise. Seeking what? One must immediately impute an intention in order for there to be some meaning to it. A dog chases cars out of a seeking impulse? And every species of animal is seeking something different, then how can emotion be universal? When I watch the video I will be looking for a distinction between thinking and feeling. Perhaps someone who has already watched it can make this distinction if in fact it is being made there.

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• 12-27-2010 12:10 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  The energetic principles of emotion are exactly the same across the animal kingdom, (attraction, collapse, flow, grounding, etc.) However when most species experience a collapse, the intensity of the sensations overwhelm their emotional capacity to feel and then genetically encoded hard wired patterns are triggered and this is one level of response. So for example, when a gull chick sees the red spot, its state of attraction collapses into a pecking instinct. So we see animals segregated according to environmental niche. Thus an organism can respond by instinct, highly conditioned habits, thoughts in the case of humans and perhaps primates, and then I am adding, they can also respond by feel.    Thank you for not showing any intention of interacting, Professor Behan. I am simply in awe of your prestigious body of scholarly research findings made ever so much more important and relevant as you have developed them in a complete vacuum of collaboration.  And even more impressive, you have devised, quite independent of other vocabularies, your own enigmatic jargon for conveying your highly self-touted understanding. Congratulations.  You should have been on the roster for an award with Panksepp and Solm.  But, it’s probably just as well…they really are merely two researchers whose careers are spent employing a common agreed-upon vocabulary within which they interact with other researchers, building on their discoveries.   You sure could show them a thing or two.

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• 12-27-2010 2:32 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Interesting ground rules. First NDT is accused of peddling phony baloney, and then in response to direct questions about being vague as well as adding unnecessarily terminology to the lexicon, I apparently have made the error of rendering definitive answers and drawing precise distinctions and putting forth a fully developed model for such, all of which can be tested by direct personal experience for oneself in the examples I give, however I'm then advised to keep the answers short so it's easier to follow (fair enough), and so with it all pared down to pure pith, now I'm accused of not interacting in the spirit of what exactly? I'm articulating what I've learned from a lifetime of observing dogs, easily many tens of thousands, and many other animals as well, without projecting thoughts into their heads. Eventually over several decades, emotion as the organizing principle of the animal mind and as the basis of a group consciousness, became apparent and this is why I don't use other terminology because 99.99% of it is embedded with particular meanings that aren't what I'm trying to say. You may not think such practical experience on the farm/kennel/woods is valuable, but I believe it offers a window into the animal mind unavailable any other way and I very much look forward to showing any scientist who is truly interested in the emotional underpinnings of empathy, cooperation and altruism, a thing or two about what I've discovered. I can assure you a good time will be had by all.

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• 12-27-2010 2:54 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Kevin, I have no doubt you can help dogs and their humans, as long as you stick to praxis and leave theory to trained researchers in the field of animal neuroscience.  But you are not qualified to do the latter, and your inexperience in communicating in a scientifically critical manner only serves to demonstrate this point.
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• 12-27-2010 4:31 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Kevin In followup to my “IMO, we live well together as we as species are open to social gathering,”  I see I missed a comment where you asked “So then why are dogs more open to social gatherings?” I do not know.  I assume it had to do with wolves working in groups.
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• 12-27-2010 6:05 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Yes exactly, and NDT is the only theory, philosophy and method 100% predicated on how wolves work in "groups" (rather than as they live in packs). This premise was published in 1992 years ahead of the researchers (for example Dr. Mech) who according to your earlier post are the only ones qualified to have an opinion as to why dogs do what they do.

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• 12-27-2010 8:08 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  miranadobe Joined on 04-06-2006 Purgatory Posts 8,885 Points 630

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  Interesting ground rules. I'll remind you ALL that you've agreed to our Forum Rules, which require no personal attacks.  I encourage you to review your posts, consider editing those which may violate that rule, and keep future posts to discussion of the applicable theories this thread is based upon, not personal attacks.  Some are dangerously close to a time-out if they cannot heed this rule. Paige - dog.community Moderator with Gracie - 7yr old Doberman "Do your dogs have as much self-control as you do? Or as little?" - Paige, Moderator dog.com "So you've 'had dogs all your life'? I've had teeth all my life. Doesn't make me a dentist." - JV McDonough, Certified Dog Trainer ~ www.fortunatek9.com ~ Fight for your opinions, but do not believe that they contain the whole truth, or the only truth. - Charles A. Dana

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• 12-27-2010 10:58 PM

  In reply to miranadobe

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 134 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} My premise is that a state of attraction is emotion, emotion is an “energy” of attraction and it results from the confluence of all the physical and neurological energies of the body and brain, and these are very real energies indeed. The terms I'm using: Inflection, induction, acceleration, etc. are all but variants of an underlying state of attraction and which add energy, and thus pleasure, to the experience. The problem here is that repetition won't make this any truer today that it was yesterday. It relies on circular logic that emotion is energy of attraction and energy of attraction is emotion. The circularity is a necessity in Behan’s approach because he cannot define, detect or even allude to these energies much less to their characteristics (i.e. ‘attraction’), so he is forced to rely on a self referencing system.  Thus he is forced to rely on vague, meaningless terms - Inflection, induction, acceleration, etc.- to hide that this approach cannot explain anything.  It is so arbitrary that we could easily take these beliefs and reverse/invert them and claim that SUBTRACTING ‘energy’ and REPULSION add pleasure.  In either case, nothing would be explained… merely explained away. Happiness is a function of “being in the flow,” This claim was made by Behan in his site (from which he cowardly deletes those who question him) and in it I responded with a parody mocking it by using the same nonsensical language.  The point being that anyone can make a claim about anything.  Needless to say that Behan is completely wrong – again – when he talks about disgust. Digusts is not about “essence without form”, whatever that may mean, it relies on some very specific physiological responses - nausea.  In 1978 Grill and Norgren showed that CONDITIONED disgust is mediated by the forebrain circuitry and unconditioned is mediated by brainstem circuitry.  He also fails and like he has so many times before (as per comparison of domesticated and non-domesticated animals) he makes irrelevant comparisons.  In this case, he incorrectly compares conditioned and unconditioned disgust reactions. On top of that Behan’s example is already well explained by habituation and desensitization.  But it makes me curious as to what God-like powers Behan must posses that he is able to know the ‘essence’ of a thing.  The rest of the world has to settle at describing things. 50% Divorce rate disproves the claim that attraction cannot be extinguished. And since disgust was brought up, we can condition disgust to previously favored foods by infusing them with lithium chloride.  Easy peasy; “attraction” extinguished and Kevin is proven wrong.  The problem of arguing with someone like Behan is that he has the freedom of making up absolutely anything he wants and so we are forced to defend against lies, metaphors, and one counter factual claim after another.  He doesn’t have to present evidence, facts, research or even logic.  Since his ideas don’t have to conform to reality – mainly because he believes reality conforms to desire – it is difficult to use reality to counter his claims.

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• Chuffy Joined on 12-17-2006 UK Posts 8,240 Points 245

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   ron2: And I need to correct my own mistake. A subject is not awarded or rewarded by survival. Survival is simply a thing, neither rewarding or not-rewarding. It just is.     Living things do what works.  The cat escapes the large critter that moves fast and makes a noise and so lives to tell the tale.  This is a reward of a sort.  Perhaps the flood of adrenalin/endorphins the cat "enjoys" make it more likely that he will run from that big, fast, loud critter next time.  Perhaps it is truer to say survival rewards the species as a whole, rather than an individual.   "Give a man a fire and he is warm for a day, but set fire to him and he is warm for the rest of his life." - Pratchett, "Jingo"

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• 01-04-2011 4:31 PM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 51 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Of course it doesn't understand "forever" or nothingness or infinite, it's just that there is no bound on the moment, I don't know how else one can say that a moment for an animal is forever to get the point across since our intellects are so fixated on time. Think a little creatively and you'll know what I mean. Imagine being somewhere and this is now the totality of all that you can apprehend. You have no idea how you're getting out of there. This opens a window into the animal mind.

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• 01-04-2011 4:34 PM

  In reply to Burl

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 38 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Burl: On your discussion of this, my big comment is that all memory is physical memory.  Where else to put it? Saying the source of memory is physical is like saying a rock is matter.  What else is it going to be... Non-physical? Supernatural?  It's one of the things that I find annoying about reading his posts, often he thinks he's being profound but really saying nothing. In regards to memory, it reminded me of the wonderfully titled paper Gilgamesh is required for rutabaga-independent olfactory learning in Drosophila. It's way too esoteric to be discussed here but I liked the title.  This however might be of interest http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6WSN-4XBX62B-8-4&_cdi=7051&_user=10&_pii=S0092867409011805&_coverDate=10%2F02%2F2009&_sk=%23TOC%237051%232009%23998609998%231528091%23FLA%23display%23Volume_139,_Issue_1,_Pages_1-212_%282_October_2009%29%23tagged%23Volume%23first%3D139%23Issue%23first%3D1%23date%23%282_October_2009%29%23&view=c&_gw=y&wchp=dGLbVlW-zSkWb&md5=8b88e2a8f2ae0cb11fc5cc82dd2eeeb2&ie=/sdarticle.pdf

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• 01-04-2011 4:53 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 38 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  The action of many NHAnimals indicates that they do have a concept of time, both backwards and forwards. Corvus already pointed this out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M52ZVtmPE9g Wait till the end to hear how apes fared with this.
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• 01-04-2011 5:52 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  corvus Joined on 08-01-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,877 Points 85

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: But at any rate I'm not saying that dogs don't have a memory, but rather that they are informed by a "physical memory" so that the present moment's intensity/resistance value triggers these older memories and thus the dog relives the past by way of the present.   That seems to be more or less what researchers are saying about episodic memory in animals, except that it appears some animals have some sense of time in that they can make decisions based on how long it has been since they last had this same decision before them (see the chickadees paper, for example). In a controlled environment it's possible to take away all other possible cues and rely entirely on the animal's internal sense of time, whether that be an internal clock or a sense of time relative to sequences of events or "long" vs "short" periods. I suspect the latter. I think it's useful to note that some species have skills that other species do not. Animal species that cache are well known for spatial and temporal memory, and I think it's ground squirrels that have such an extensive and detailed suite of vocalisations that it has been bandied about that they have language. They aren't especially brilliant; they just live in an environment and have a social structure where auditory communication is especially useful.   Kevin Behan: I believe that a dog senses the affective change from compression (right before the explosion) to release (this can be a coherent kind of behavior rather than a simple overload explosion) and that this is a basis for responding coherently to the way things change, but not in the linear way of understanding that A caused B and this led to C. Rather, my premise is that from the dog's point of view, whatever it is feeling it then associates with the process of change, in other words, just as if its feelings are what caused things to change.   I think we can all agree that dogs (and other animals, including humans) tend to be superstitious about what they can affect and what they can't. We all know about the confirmation bias. I think the main problem with this idea of feelings causing changes for me is simply clicker training. My dogs have a definite "training mode" that I (and Panksepp, as it happens) equate to SEEKING. When they are in this mode they are all about working out how to get a mark. There is no discernable change in their demeanour when they get a click, generally speaking. We know they get a little surge of dopamine, which is thought to mediate learning. They learn to do stuff without changing emotional states as far as I'm aware. So their feelings can't be what caused things to change for them because they can learn several different behaviours in one training session, all without a change in feelings. I think I must be missing something again.  Mind you, I don't disagree that it can occur the way you suggest. Aggression would be a good example. Dog feels pressured, strikes out, and the person/dog backs away and the dog relaxes. I (and Steven Lindsay, it seems), think this is an opponent-process, where over time the pressure before the dog strikes lessens, but the feeling of relief after the dog strikes becomes stronger. You must love the opponent-process theory.

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• 01-04-2011 5:57 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 204 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  Think a little creatively and you'll know what I mean. Imagine being somewhere and this is now the totality of all that you can apprehend. You have no idea how you're getting out of there. This opens a window into the animal mind.    For my part Kevin, I can only insist, as I have with you for probably more than a year now, I do not perceive my dogs as being that damned mindless, like an unplugged toaster.     Even our recently deceased dogs Happy and Sissy are affectively and cognitively influencing minds (me, Martha, our relatives and friends, and maybe Red and Peanut).  Try and get that from a cell phone.

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• 01-04-2011 6:20 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  corvus Joined on 08-01-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,877 Points 85

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: In other words, resolving unresolved emotion (Drive) is the highest form of pleasure for an animal.   Is that the final word? Isn't that what Panksepp said about instinctive actions being inherently rewarding (or punishing)? But surely it doesn't preclude non-instinctive actions from also being rewarding (or punishing)?   Kevin Behan: Finally, the rabbit that turns its back in avoidance I also see as a function of attraction because the feeling of attraction to that which is more excitement/stress/fear that the rabbit can handle, is what guides the rabbit to want to turn its focus away. The "pull" becomes a "push." It's like not looking at something that one craves so badly it aches to look at it.    Okay, but what I don't follow is how a pull can become a push without ever appearing to be a pull in the first place. I said before I can see push become pull with the hare, and with the dogs as well for that matter, but to see one become the other I feel like I need both to occur at some point. You didn't answer my question about whether attention is pull. What happens when an animal bolts? The attraction of attention to a potentially dangerous stimulus is overidden by the overwhelming need to increase distance from the threatening thing?

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• 01-04-2011 6:28 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 51 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  I still don't understand why you think I'm saying dogs or animals are mindless robots. I'm just saying they don't think, specifically as in compare one moment to another, or one point of view to another and then go on to string moments together via linear reasoning. I'm saying that they are wholly in the moment, although this can be "displaced" so to speak by instinct, and that their mind is a group mind. What you feel they feel as they pick it up via the unconscious ways we deport and move and micro-musculature, scent and so on. I believe they hold images in mind and I'm open to the telepathic end of things as well but I don't concern myself with this as I'm concentrating on the nuts and bolts and the most down to earth stuff. I remember once offering the example of how one can listen to music and enjoy the full range of emotional experience and conscious awareness of the music, and I don't think there's any need for thoughts in order to apprehend and appreciate music. In fact, the less one thinks the more evocative the piece and enjoyable the experience. I believe that the discrepancy between a physical memory that's triggered within the dog by the intensity/resistance value of a present moment, and then the actual reality of the moment, is a potential energy that dogs can sense and then they are able to adapt creatively to conform the moment to their earliest imprint of flow memories. But they don't do this via rational deduction rather through an auto-tuning/feedback dynamic (Temperament or Heart) which enables them to affect their situation in order to feel good within. When observing such a dog we would say it's anticipating or working toward something, whereas I would argue it's a function of physical memory, and the innate intelligence of the emotional dynamic.

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• 01-04-2011 6:55 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 204 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Kevin, I do appreciate your efforts.
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• 01-04-2011 7:17 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  corvus Joined on 08-01-2006 Australia (NSW) Posts 2,877 Points 85

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact Kevin Behan: When observing such a dog we would say it's anticipating or working toward something, whereas I would argue it's a function of physical memory, and the innate intelligence of the emotional dynamic. Are you saying they don't anticipate rewards, but are drawn on to replicate the scenario that matches their memory that is associated with the feeling of receiving a reward? I take it you know at least a bit about dopamine and anticipatory states?

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 Page 24

• poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 438 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: I'm saying that the body/mind evolved to be, fundamentally, in the confluence of all its systems, physical and neurological processes, an action potential, a constitutional state of tension, the release from which is emotion. I am talking about "energy" in real concrete, biological terms and which can be verified by any impartial observer who is merely open to looking through this lens. (The woman who discovered infrasound communication between elephants first FELT the vibration herself standing at the elephant exhibit at the zoo, and through her study of whales understood its significance. Then the scientific method was applied to her discovery. Likewise anyone can watch any two dogs interact and see these principles for themselves.)     Kevin, we have been down this road before. We suggested that a main way that dogs could tell the emotional state (which is a means of communcitaion ) was  scent and sound. This is not new. I don't argue at all that the basis of much Mammal behaviour is emotional. Energy is not neccessarily observable, and conversely, the manifestation of what seems like "energy" has been corrupted by it's use in the english language. I would be the last person in the room to discount communication between animals at either very low or quite high audible frequencies, they are fine evolutionary adaptation. You have really butchered and mis understood what an action potiential is. I am sick of doing it for you. read a bit more and get back to us.   Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

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• 01-13-2011 2:32 PM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 102 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  From "Conceptual Physics" by Paul Gettewitt, (Harper Collins) "Energy: Anything that can change the condition of matter. Commonly defined circularly as the ability to do work; actually only describable by example." You complain about my use of the term energy without offering a specific definition to demonstrate the error of my usage. Concise definitions are available, please offer one that demonstrates my error.

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• 01-13-2011 3:13 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 231 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Jeez, I sure could have done better things with my two hours this morning.  I have to quit caring.
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• 01-13-2011 11:45 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 80 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact Kevin Behan: Also, the researcher used the term selective imitation, which is already an interpretation because the process of selection was by way of a reason. I simply said they selectively imitate in order to be in synchrony, and this is buttressed by discovery of mirror neurons. That's also incorrect. A sieve, for example can select and it is something that we can quantify. Natural selection is also done with reason or purpose. There is no need for "interpretation" it is mathematically demonstrable. But once again, how does selective imitation turn into uncontrollable urge?

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• 01-13-2011 11:59 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 80 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact Kevin Behan: (The woman who discovered infrasound communication between elephants first FELT the vibration herself standing at the elephant exhibit at the zoo, and through her study of whales understood its significance. Then the scientific method was applied to her discovery. Please, dont insult us by even comparing your juju to an objective, measurable phenomenon.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 12:09 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 80 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} According to RationalWiki, the first written record of the word ‘pseudoscience’ occurred in 1844 in the Northern Journal of Medicine, I 387 "That opposite kind of innovation which pronounces what has been recognized as a branch of science, to have been a pseudo-science, composed merely of so-called facts, connected together by misapprehensions under the disguise of principles"   It’s a beautiful description of NDT theory. So-called facts – check Connected by misapprehension – check Disguise of principles – check.   Science is a method. NDT is pseudoscience. NDT is a doctrine. Pseudoscience has a number of distinguishing characteristics that differentiate it from an honest pursuit of knowledge and various authors have compiled lists – usually heavily influenced by the work of Popper, Kuhn and Lakatos and popularized by Sagan, Shermer, and Randi.  This list of characteristics is a compilation from RationalWiki and Wikipedia entries for pseudoscience, with the first being my own addition. Integration with other Disciplines -- Pseudosciences thrive and require isolation; by necessity they need to ignore, misuse and misrepresent mainstream science. NDT and its defenders have gone so far as to declare particular subfields aren’t ‘science’ because they contradict the main tenets.  As such, NDT is forced to invent new physics, chemistry, even ignore basic anatomy in order to make sense of their beliefs. Psychology, astronomy, agronomy, neuroscience and all modern sciences (except maybe theoretical physics) are integrated disciplines. Integration is important to the advancement of science and one of the reasons NDT will never advance.   Lack of Advancement / Accumulation of Knowledge -- NDT, like other pseudosciences suffers from a lack of advancement and accumulation of knowledge.  Unlike the mainstream approach it wishes to supersede, NTD adherents have added nothing to our understanding of animal behavior.  Science on the other hand has advanced in leaps and bounds, from gross observations of natural behavior to understanding the role of hormones and neurotransmitters, signal transduction, DNA, fMRI, epigenetics and now we are even beginning to characterize the molecular mechanics of memory formation.    Non-existent research / Sloppy and low standards research standards – NDT manifests this with quote-mining lay articles or the occasional study; they also rely on supporters like LCK or Sattin for copious self-referencing. Behan cites LCK who cites Sattin who cites Behan.   Heavy reliance on arbitrary and cultural conventions – NDT arguments are heavy on western metaphors, myths and cultural beliefs. If Behan was Chinese or Polynesian, NDT would be very different.   Stasis, and hostility towards development or change of the idea – Until a few years ago, those studying human evolution were divided into two camps; ‘Out of Africa’ and ‘Multiregional.’ Both of these camps had some solid evidence on their side.  Thanks to DNA (see Genographic) the Multiregional hypothesis is now dead and the Out of Africa theory has been adapted to incorporate the multiregional evidence – OoA with serial founder.   Reliance on negative proofs –  “In science ideas are never really proven, which is demonstrated in the old adage that "proof is for math and alcohol". Pseudoscience promoters however are big fans of the negative proof. They push the idea that somehow the "truth value" of an idea is a binary claim, that if an idea is not proven false it must be true. However, most of their claims are positive claims - and as such would require evidence to back them up. The burden of proof is on the promoter, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” - (RationalWiki) Use of misleading and/or confusing language – rampant abuse of technobabble is an essential aspect of NDT. Holism – one explanation for everything. e.g. NDT’s “energy” Claims with no supporting experimental evidence – e.g “network consciousness” Claims which contradict experimental evidence - e.g.  dogs can't think Cherry-picking the facts. - or misinterpretation of them like Behan's use of 'Red Queen hypothesis", which btw Kevin presents as a fact. Explanations are not parsimonious even when they are available. Vague and/or exaggerated claims and ambiguous language - “Complete understanding of dog behavior” Misuse of scientific terms - "emotionally ionizing"

  Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 5:19 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 438 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: You complain about my use of the term energy without offering a specific definition to demonstrate the error of my usage. Concise definitions are available, please offer one that demonstrates my error.    This statement unfortunately expresses the shortcomings in your arguements.There are chapters and books written on energy for a good reason. It takes some time to understand the concepts and use them correctly. There are all sorts of concepts that are floating around. To be really honest, you need to shut down NDT, go and get a decent science education and have another crack at the whole dam thing.   Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 7:14 AM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 102 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact                                                    "Stasis, and hostility towards development or change of the idea"   I know exactly what you mean.
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 7:47 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 231 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact Kevin (and corgi)   I corrected a few errors in my earlier post and repeat it below.   I would appreciate your comments, as I have made a considered effort to address your thoughts, and I offer some helpful clarity and advice.     Kevin, I agree that this is starting to get insulting to our intelligence.  You may not agree with what or in what tone (should be lowered) the others are telling you, but as a member of this planet, you must agree with facts, and you cannot make them up. Let’s rewiew mine and your recent back and forth: KB-1: The first question (if you're interested) would be to reprise what you think I mean by energy. B-1: I think your assumptions of reality are what philosophers like to call deterministic naturalism.  Nature does what it does in a manner over which we have no real control.  Creatures, like planets, are subject to laws of physics, which has energy as the 'fundamental principle of any activity.'  Even biological activity, and even creature consciousness are all manifestations of energy doing things according to what nature dictates.  Any physical activity or creature behavior is simply evidence of the deterministic outcome of energized nature. Comment (be somewhat succinct, please)? KB-2: I mean a tension between two things that are in some way linked. So when I see two animals interacting, or looking at things, I see a fundamental state of tension in play. You can actually see the dog inflate with tension and then there is a collapse into either a coherent (play, drive, meet and greet) or an "incoherent" (growling, hackles, overloading) behavior. The question then becomes, given what we know of evolution of consciousness emerging from single celled organisms, and before that proto-cells and then before that self-replicating mineral crystals, what is the most logical interpretation of the nature of this tension and the necessary linkage between the two parties in order for there to be tension; psychological principles or physical principles? Also, this doesn't have to mean a predetermined outcome, I am arguing that an energy model is the only means by which behavior can be said to not be deterministic.  Whereas the theory of randomness (genes/learning) will always reduce to a deterministic mechanical model. B-2: Not so sure that is the same definition you've offered in the past.  Regardless, tension is a force, it is not an energy.  A force moving through some distance does some work and that is one form of energy with units in foot - pounds when dealing with forces, watts w/ electricity, calories in biology, Btu in HVAC.  But for a force, Energy = force x distance moved along its line of action KB-3:  Right, force is a manifestation of energy, but I don't follow your point, what then is your definition of energy? In B-1, I am pretty sure I have succinctly summed up your outlook on reality as that of a deterministic naturalist. In KB-2, you dodged my assessment of your metaphysics.  Rather than a succinct response to what I wrote, you give yet another of your unending definitions of energy (now it is a force), and insist that physics is not deterministic (it is the most deterministic science there is). Now after explaining the difference between force and energy in B-2, you make a completely absurd statement that force results from energy.  NO.  They are two different things entirely, though they can be related as I mentioned.  Long ago I gave you a whole list of other ways force and energy are related at your website. You end KB-3 asking me to define energy after starting out in KB-1 asking anyone to show that they knew what you mean by the term.  It is clear that you are unclear. I will give you a little insight that might help your own thinking about force, emotion, feeling, consciousness, energy, and dog, but I do not subscribe to this at all: We can certainly feel a force – we feel a blow to the jaw in a fight; we feel our weight as the earth’s gravitational field attracts us.  You might wish to liken this weight (a true force, pounds) to a ‘force of attraction’ and the feeling likewise likened to ‘consciousness’.  But unlike some previous statememts you’ve made, force of attraction and consciousness are not at all the same. Furthermore,  note that consciousness is not energy, as you often say – in this case, it is awareness of an affect/emotion = feeling.   As for energy, if dog don’t eat enough calories (a real form of physical energy), dog don’t feel anything – that is the extent of energy for a dog. Kevin, I went to your website a year or so back where I saw what you were saying, and I brought up many points just made.  At that time I urged you to get a rational framework for your thoughts on dog behavior.  There are many to choose from, and you can mix and match SO LONG AS YOUR TERMINOLOGY IS COCSISTENT ACROSS THE BOUNDARIES where you mate up two or more sciences, philosophies, or psychologies.     I am trained as an engineer who has spent much of the last several years increasing knowledge in the area of one of my big avocations, philosophy.  (Dogs and RVs are two others).  I think I am knowledgeable enough in philosophy now to counsel you to back off of your focus of the ontology of the dog, and focus on its epistemology.   By this I am saying the nature of the dog’s existence (ontology, mode of being in reality) is not where the fruit of understanding dog behavior is to be found.  Rather, you should study ‘how’ the mental processes of a dog work, how it subjectively knows (epistemology, psychology, cognition). This took 2 hours to write!

  Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 8:44 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 102 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  It will take me some time to follow the intertwining of our comments so that I can be most sure as to what your saying, but I have two questions on first reading: how can physics can be deterministic if quantum mechanics and chaos theory is saying the exact opposite about nature. Second, how can there be a force without energy?   I also don't any idea what you mean about me dodging anything, although it may very well be that we're talking at each other from different planes of analysis and so not intersecting, and I'm 100% consistent with my definitions although my power of articulation may be stretched trying to explain it from different angles and that I write all my responses spontaneously and without benefit of hundreds of people tightening up the language over hundreds of years of cross pollination. At any rate, let me sum up the energy thing this way, The subconscious (and unconscious) compartments of the mind can be activated by environmental influences far below the plane of conscious awareness so that the body state is enlivened by way of hormones, the activity of neurons, action potentials discharging, heart beating, etc, etc, and it's not scientifically possible to say that said organism is thinking. My argument is that this subconscious activation of physical systems which internally create waves, pulses, pressures, etc, etc is already a highly evolved form of social information that doesn't require thoughts to render intelligence. That's all I'm saying and it will defy logic to find any other word for all of this internal combustion and processing other than energy.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 8:48 AM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 102 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact I reserve the right to question authority.  Back in the sixties I used to have to tell clients that when their dog didn't meet them at the door, a telltale sign that disaster awaits within, their dog wasn't feeling guilty. It was simply afraid. But now forty years later if Range is right about the interpretations of her experiments and with which you agree, then the rolled up newspaper crowd was right all along. I don't think so.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 10:53 AM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 102 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Just to correct one misrepresentation amongst a blizzard of them, you said somewhere earlier to the effect that I consider that if a science isn't complete, it isn't being scientific. My actual position is that if a science contradicts itself, it isn't being logical and therefore can't be scientific. This is why you must pursue these silly cult/religion/mystical charges because as soon as you offer something concrete, I demonstrate the inherent contradiction of that position. The difficulty you are having is that you are trying to explain the evolution of natural processes through a rational mechanism and this will always generate self-contradicting logic loops because natural systems will always evolve according to energetic principles. So again, feel free to offer a definition of energy that negates my use of the term and we can put this discussion to rest.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 4:22 PM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 13,580 Points 5,265

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   poodleOwned:   Kevin Behan: There are no trials. It's about trust.   That's ok Kevin, but don't ever pretend that you are operating from a scientific basis.          Trust.  Interesting concept when you apply it to the dog owning public who are not as dog centric as some of us are;-)  What happens in the real world is that if the puppies don't learn bite inhibition, sooner or later they place their mouths on human skin and hurt it.  Then, humans react.  Some humans react very badly.  The consequences can be devastating for dogs - abused physically, off to the shelter, relegated to the back yard on a chain.  Knowing how often things go horribly wrong, I think I'll side with Dunbar on this one.  It's been my experience, and apparently Jean's too, as evidenced by her comments in the following article: http://www.calgaryhumane.ca/document.doc?id=15 that dogs that don't acquire bite inhibition as pups don't gain it as adults when they are under duress.  Of course, for me this is anecdotal, and I don't claim to have made any scientific study on the matter, but having trained hundreds of dogs, and I find that dogs do tend to revert to harder bites when there is competition, stress, or duress.  JMHO, but you are playing with the lives of dogs if you don't err on the side of caution and have them learn ABI as pups.  Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, Red Tri Australian Shepherd Mix, CGC, TDInc., ITD Sequoyah, Red Merle Australian Shepherd, CGC, ATD Quanah, Hound Mix, Great Dog in Training Dancer, Border Collie/Spaniel Mix, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog Maska, Hound Mix, CGC, TDInc. (2000-2010) RIP Doodlebug Fergie, Yorkshire Terrier (1989-2010) RIP my little bugaboo In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 4:27 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 80 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:                                                    "Stasis, and hostility towards development or change of the idea"   I know exactly what you mean.  You are a great practitioner of the craft
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-14-2011 4:33 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 80 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  Just to correct one misrepresentation amongst a blizzard of them, you said somewhere earlier to the effect that I consider that if a science isn't complete, it isn't being scientific. My actual position is that if a science contradicts itself, it isn't being logical and therefore can't be scientific. This is why you must pursue these silly cult/religion/mystical charges because as soon as you offer something concrete, I demonstrate the inherent contradiction of that position. The difficulty you are having is that you are trying to explain the evolution of natural processes through a rational mechanism and this will always generate self-contradicting logic loops because natural systems will always evolve according to energetic principles. So again, feel free to offer a definition of energy that negates my use of the term and we can put this discussion to rest.   The NDT juju is nonsense.  As it has been explained to you several times, and you refuse or are unable to comprehend; the inconsistencies you see are all in your mind.  They are the product of ignorance, a poor understanding of the principles, facts and theories involved. Time after time you've proven that you have no idea what you are fighting against. You get simple facts wrong, you invent counter-factual arguments and you distort and misuse legitimate findings.

 page 27

• Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 135 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact    "At least give me the courtesy of reading and quoting my corrected material." <> 1) a sense/instinct of balanced behavior amongst peacefully interacting creatures - fairness - keeps things orderly; it naturally keeps individual passions/desires tempered, otherwise no peaceful interaction in nature could exist - agression would be all there is. <>

  Post Points: 0

• 01-16-2011 9:56 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 135 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Consider that Candice Pert discovered the "psychosomatic system" comprised of the immune, endocrine and central nervous system in an equal three way interplay wherein the CNS is not in charge so I think assigning consciousness as the preserve of CNS is not going to hold up if that's the point you're making. And there is also the enteric nervous system which has to be taken into account. There's also a TED presentation on communication systems between bacteria, and the implications of this when we take into consideration that the bacteria in the gut and elsewhere, are in communication with other bacteria internally and externally and how this influences human physiology and consciousness. The presenter notes that there is far more bacterial DNA than human DNA in our bodies and without which life would not be possible.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 6:22 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 267 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact I think the neurobiologist in Spiritdogs’ vid would state with better terminology what I fumbled thru on fairness.  I am saying it is one of many social behaviors observed in higher order creatures – much like creatures  generally move to greet one another. Panpsychism (ubiquitous mentality) does not dictate that all consciousness is of the same nature.  It is more reasonable to speak of panexperientialism (organisms – bacteria to Socrates - experience their environment).  Some experiences are richer than others.   Rather than continually chasing tangents that do not get to the heart of the matter, could corgidogs please come on now and give us the takeaway bullet points of what distinguishes NDT from other dog training paradigms.  We clearly are not moving together

  Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 8:04 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 135 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  For example, a puppy should never be corrected and it should never be allowed to make mistakes. This formula would eliminate the euthanasia of pet dogs.   (Interestingly much is made here of the distinction between force and energy, when the distinction isn't particularly relevant since there can't be force without energy and science can't even say what energy is. Meanwhile, the distinction between fairness and a sense of balance is extremely relevant when the experiment by Range is wildly accepted as demonstrating an intellectual apprehension of a state of inequity and the ability to compare different points of view and over the course of time. Then the logical consequences of these statements are expediently sidestepped. Why would a dog sense a state of inequity if there wasn't the guilt attached when for example a given dog finds itself  displacing the inequity or balance of the situation if you like? It would make no sense. So if you're going to accept the interpretation of these latest experiments, then you must now go back and erase the last thirty years of behaviorism that's been inculcated in the dog owning public.There is also no integration here of the latest research that shows how consciousness is slowly but surely being revealed as a confluence of many systems beyond the CNS. )

  Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 8:53 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 267 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  For example, a puppy should never be corrected and it should never be allowed to make mistakes. This formula would eliminate the euthanasia of pet dogs. Excellent start on a short list of takeaway bullet points of NDT principles that distinguish it as a training method.
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 10:47 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 135 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  If you're interested I wrote a book that is full of them and my second book with many more will be out in a few weeks. The most important point I'm saying is that the way a predator hunts determines its social nature, not the other way around, and that the information in the energy composes its mind (and this turns out to be a group cognition) determines its behavior, again not the other way around. This then begs an interesting question, what is the nature of information?

  Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 11:00 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 267 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact Without a short list of salient takeaway bullet points of NDT principles that distinguish it as a training method, I have no incentive to pursue it over another.
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 11:37 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 135 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  That's fine. But what might give one incentive is to realize that there are self-defeating logic loops in the current theories, that are even more pronounced when folks try to synthesize the two approaches. That's what led me to question the dominance theory and the learning-by-reinforcement theory. However if you think that you are presently dealing with a model that is only missing a few dots and you expect that the trajectory of discovery you're witnessing is going to connect said dots, I can see why you wouldn't have any incentive.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 3:34 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 114 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  The only self defeating logic loops we are liable to find in in your writings.  No once have you made a convincing point in regards to anything you've mentioned.  Time and time again, it's been a complete corruption of the facts, The arguments you put forth are devoid of any critical thinking, absent in logic both the ones you make in support of NDT and against science.  It's one tragic failure after another.  The arguments put forth in defense of NDT are pure garbage, it' schizophrenic, magical thinking inspired rhetoric.  But even if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter.  In the end what matters is evidence, and when it comes to facts NDT has none and the other side has them all.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 3:37 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 114 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  So there is no energy?     As you so beautifully, and eloquently explained; energy is a build up of energy.
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 4:16 PM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 267 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact energy is a build up of energy  So much for thermodynamics and entropy!
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 5:38 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 267 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   spiritdogs: Clever marketing always seems to win out, and the reason is that many people who have the IQ of a kumquat are willing to grasp explanations that make sense to *them* without having to exert the brain power or intellect that it takes to question something in a truly investigative way to come to a conclusion that can be proven scientifically.  Then, they hold tight to their beliefs, no matter what evidence is presented to the contrary, because they really need to be right about something in their otherwise unremarkable lives.    Burl: Without a short list of salient takeaway bullet points of NDT principles that distinguish it as a training method, I have no incentive to pursue it over another.   Kevin Behan:  If you're interested I wrote a book that is full of them and my second book with many more will be out in a few weeks.     Well how dense I am.  I have been naive enough to think all this time that you, Kevin, were seeking honest discussion and to perhaps clarify your own inconsistencies.  Your constant raising questions and critiques of the mainstream concepts of dog cognition led me to realize we needed a brief summary of your major points of distinction in the form of a short list of salient keynotes.  You refuse...now I see it.  Spiritdogs saw it clearly as I could not: you are just here to stir up sales of a book, much as LCK was directing hits to his blog.  This whole thing is just a marketing charade.  Apologize, please, and stop this b******t.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 6:37 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 135 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  You want me to boil it down to 5,000 bullet points?
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 7:01 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 469 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: (Interestingly much is made here of the distinction between force and energy, when the distinction isn't particularly relevant since there can't be force without energy and science can't even say what energy is. Meanwhile, the distinction between fairness and a sense of balance is extremely relevant when the experiment by Range is wildly accepted as demonstrating an intellectual apprehension of a state of inequity and the ability to compare different points of view and over the course of time. Then the logical consequences of these statements are expediently sidestepped. Why would a dog sense a state of inequity if there wasn't the guilt attached when for example a given dog finds itself  displacing the inequity or balance of the situation if you like? It would make no sense. So if you're going to accept the interpretation of these latest experiments, then you must now go back and erase the last thirty years of behaviorism that's been inculcated in the dog owning public.There is also no integration here of the latest research that shows how consciousness is slowly but surely being revealed as a confluence of many systems beyond the CNS. )   Here we go Some bullet points science can't even say what energy is. Kevin, it just is not a little take home message for you .It is a little complex.... Behavourism is naughty Well many of us agree that it is time it move on, but your stuff would suggest that we should run deseperately back into the past into something that might work.. I  won't be buying your book, and i am ***** that you wasted my time trying to release it this way. I hope it bombs. The rest of your stuff, as per usual is solid gold hard to understand bilge that isn't worth my time and energy decoding, trying to sort out what concepts you have mashed and how ...   Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-17-2011 11:15 PM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 135 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Whoa, sorry. I only mentioned my books in lieu of bullet pointing ad infinitum because I'm making an argument not a power point. (And you may rest assured I'm not counting on any support from these quarters.) You think I'm attacking you because I'm pointing out the logical inconsistencies with the mainstream interpretation of the evidence which apparently folks are supposed to accept without question or analysis. The point is that it's a one way street with the argument for thinking (i.e. the comparison of one moment or point of view to another) in dogs; Range says dogs can think about inequity and yet the logical extension that leads to guilt you don't want to deal with and the average owner and trainer is just supposed to accept that inherent contradiction out of deference to authority figures.

 page 28

• poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 441 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  Whoa, sorry. I only mentioned my books in lieu of bullet pointing ad infinitum because I'm making an argument not a power point. (And you may rest assured I'm not counting on any support from these quarters.) You think I'm attacking you because I'm pointing out the logical inconsistencies with the mainstream interpretation of the evidence which apparently folks are supposed to accept without question or analysis. The point is that it's a one way street with the argument for thinking (i.e. the comparison of one moment or point of view to another) in dogs; Range says dogs can think about inequity and yet the logical extension that leads to guilt you don't want to deal with and the average owner and trainer is just supposed to accept that inherent contradiction out of deference to authority figures.   Oh Kevin  Oh don't think you are attacking me at all. I don't think people should accept any thing without analysis including your what ever it is. It is just a good idea to learn what you are actually saying or writing before you say or write it. You seem incapable of getting the facts of a paper or research straight, and thefore it becomes pretty boring to deal with you. At the end of the day, i don't care what you say or think if your praxis is up to scratch. I guess that there are trainers out there that think  cookies are the equivalent of pink elephants. As long as they use them, good luck to them  You aren't the worst out there by any shot, there are some mean nasty ratbags spouting and doing some self serving poisionous crap. But it is derivative and sloppy. I for one never train a dog with a pinch or correction collar on without very good reason. That is hardly ever. There are many dogs that fear the noise of the chain let alone anything that it might do including quite a few dobes. The" Authority figures" arguement is  one  that every rump political , religious and training group hides behind. used it myself in some sports settings, work settings.Good wayto get a team to gel .Take some responsibilty Kevin. It is your lack of education that is causing these difficulites, your inability to get facts straight. Nothing else. Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-18-2011 5:12 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 237 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact “Whoa, sorry. I only mentioned my books in lieu of bullet pointing ad infinitum because I'm making an argument not a power point. (And you may rest assured I'm not counting on any support from these quarters.)” Either you or Sean are incapable of identifying the key features of NDT that distinguish it from what is already available elsewhere, or you are unwilling to do so in this forum for marketing reasons or whatever. I can visualize the former being the case for Kevin, but not Sean.  If the latter be the case, state so and let’s end this thread.

 page 32

• TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 139 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  Enough science is in, more is on the way not to mention we all have direct access to observing dog behavior under an infinite range of circumstances.   That's the same out-of-touch with reality we hear from people who think the universe is 10 000 years old.  No Behan, there is no science to support any of your assertions.    And the fact you continue to dodge and avoid questions regarding a simple experimental scheme to prove your point shows the weakness of this position.   BWT you still haven't answered me how you turned selective imitation into 'uncontrollable urge'?

  Post Points: 0

• 01-24-2011 5:27 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 139 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  My "theory" is that the oral urge evolves into the sexual urge so that yes it is ever present and never lessens and that it is manifested in a dog's amazing degree of physical sensuality, its capacity to enjoy tactile arousal without resorting to an instinct (as a cat must do when you arouse it too much and it either bolts away or clasps with its jaws and claws), and that furthermore, this sensuality is a higher level of information as in how to align with a "complex" object of attraction. All of this is completely false and one more example of Behan fabricating stories for the sake of convenience. I also worry about his obsession about the sexual and sensual aspects of dogs... which is despite his assertion is no different than any other mammal. As far as alignments... the one I'd like to see is one between the facts and something Behan writes.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-24-2011 5:34 PM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 139 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   poodleOwned:   spiritdogs: By the way, you call your method "natural."  So, does that mean you train puppies without leashes and collars as some of us do?  Interesting that the first negative comment on Amazon about your book says that you rely "heavily" on choke, prong collars and the reader stated a tacit acceptance of electronic collars.  True or not true?   I am concerned. I have heard these rumours but kept them out of the discussion.   I believe you can find confirmation of his acceptance and use of shock collars on the blog, he callously writes that it 'electrifies' *yeah.. no kidding) the dog into action.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-24-2011 9:13 PM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 492 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Hi MIlky Way You have to be careful about what you say about e collars. There is a case or two where manuafcturers have taken opponents to court that admitteldy did exagerate. I am very careful :)  Usually with high fields (a lot of e collar proponents will insist that the current only flows more or less in a direct line form  terminal to terminal..) that could exist with the application of an e "stim" or shock, the resulant voltages along the line of nerves that are coincident with the field radiating away from these points are way higher than a typical action potential. There are two possibilities, that spasms occur, or that the brian shuts down for a while. It is believed that a brain shut down does occur . It is tremondously difficut to support this statement practically becuase it is hard to measure the brian activity in the presence of such fields. There is a newer approach where low level stims are used.  It seems scientifc as you turn a knob until perceptable distraction from the dog occurs. It isn't  awhole lot better. I wont spell out the dangers and difficulties of such an approach. I am sure that an aware dog trainer would work out the pitfalls. Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-25-2011 3:05 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 165 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Great interview for sure. You may be chagrined to hear it doesn't change my view but in fact reinforces it. I'm generally familiar with these concepts as they've trickled down into the various articles I've read. But it's refreshing to hear it concisely from the source and in particular how common parlance has misinterpreted and waylaid some of the points he's making. From my perspective, he's dissecting a higher level of emotion and the model I'm promulgating is beneath this, specifically the brain-to-gut connection which in my view implements a principle of "emotional conductivity." From Scholarpedia (with emphasis added) http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Enteric_nervous_system "ENS-CNS interactions The gastrointestinal tract is in two way communication with the CNS. Afferent neurons convey information about the state of the gastrointestinal tract. Some of this reaches consciousness, including pain and discomfort from the gut and the conscious feelings of hunger and satiety, which are integrated perceptions derived from the gastrointestinal tract and other signals (blood glucose, for example). Other afferent signals, concerning, for example, the nutrient load in the small intestine, or the acidity of the stomach, do not normally reach consciousness. In turn, the CNS provides signals to control the intestine, which are, in most cases, relayed through the ENS. For example, the sight and smell of food elicits preparatory events in the gastro-intestinal tract, including salivation and gastric acid secretion. This is termed the cephalic phase of digestion. Swallowed food stimulates the pharynx and upper esophagus, eliciting afferent signals that are integrated in the brainstem, and subsequently provide efferent signals to enteric neurons in the stomach that cause acid secretion and increased gastric volume, in preparation for the arrival of the food. At the other end of the gut, signals from the colon and rectum are relayed to defecation centres in the spinal cord, from which a programmed set of signals is conveyed to the colon, rectum and anal sphincter to cause defecation. The defecation centres are under inhibitory control from higher CNS regions, and inhibition that can be released when it is chosen to defecate. The other central influences are through sympathetic pathways, which have been discussed under the sections on control of motility and regulation of fluid exchange and local blood flow, above." My premise is that this prepping activity imprints the animal mind with the sense of emotional conductivity and that this is the first order of information in its experience of its surroundings, and this gastrointestinal role is far more fundamental than actual digestion of food as the brain-to-gut connection is transposed onto complex objects of attraction which either move rhythmically, or can be synchronized with. This then becomes a platform on which two separate animals can synchronize if they can feel these deepest bodily movements rather than being swept up in the brainstorm activity. In the Wikipedia entry for semiotics there is a picture of two dogs tussling in play                                           (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dogs_roughhousing_by_David_Shankbone.jpg) as example of  "Metacommunications: signals that modify the meaning of subsequent signals. The best known example is the play face and tail signals in dogs, which indicate that a subsequent aggressive signal is part of a play fight rather than a serious aggressive episode." But what is really transpiring is that the two dogs are beginning to differentiate according to the principle of emotional conductivity and they are not offering signs per se whatsoever. The two primal traits of prey and predator are being recapitulated via the brain-to-gut connection and it is axiomatic that they will be able to get along under more and more intense situations until they are completely emotionally bonded. All the dopamine, hormones, neurological activity sits onto of this fundamental template which is visible in all species and in all interactions, even across species lines, between prey/predator, male/female, parent/offspring, peer-to-peer.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-25-2011 3:51 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 305 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Maybe we can focus closer on your statements of dog behavior and Panksepp at the new thread I just started.   As for the Scholarpedia quote, the 'feeling' of internal organ signals within the body would seem to have little impact on behavior until they reach consciousness.  We do not need to poop until we get a near-conscious feeling of the bowel-urge.   Your interpretation of Scholarpedia: My premise is that this prepping activity imprints the animal mind with the sense of emotional conductivity and that this is the first order of information in its experience of its surroundings, and this gastrointestinal role is far more fundamental than actual digestion of food as the brain-to-gut connection is transposed onto complex objects of attraction which either move rhythmically, or can be synchronized with. This then becomes a platform on which two separate animals can synchronize if they can feel these deepest bodily movements rather than being swept up in the brainstorm activity.  Since we have the same internal makeup of interioception as dogs, please explain this quote in terms of people interacting instead of dogs.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-25-2011 4:41 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 139 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: You may be chagrined to hear it doesn't change my view but in fact reinforces it. I'm generally familiar with these concepts as they've trickled down into the various articles I've read. It is to be expected. The religious nature of NDT means that one cannot arrive to it by examining the facts and applying reason, so reason will never dissuade you from this belief.  In fact, the cultish nature of NDT means that NOTHING will ever be discovered that falsifies NDT because it is the elusive Theory of Everything hundreds of Ph.Ds have been working on for decades.  I expect the Nobel committee to contact you any time now.   Kevin Behan: specifically the brain-to-gut connection which in my view implements a principle of "emotional conductivity."  That's not emotional conductivity. It's biochemistry.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-25-2011 4:43 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 305 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  BTW, if you recall, in the past on your website, I discussed Whitehead's notion of our conscious experience as having an associated sense of 'withness of the body.'  He argued that by this sense of our bodies (memories of interioception, proprioception, and exterioception) we can inform Hume that there is a causal connection with things sensed and our sensory images...our bodies themselves.   The efferent  afferent signals in your scholarpedia article are instances of what Whitehead would call prehensions (feelings) of 'perceptions in the mode of causal efficacy.'  FWlittleIW!   Except I recall your LCK fan trashing Whitehead as an irrelevant nobody...funny how much he projects himself.   Anyhow, this could be good stuff on a new thread.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-25-2011 4:47 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 139 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: My premise is that this prepping activity imprints the animal mind with the sense of emotional conductivity and that this is the first order of information in its experience of its surroundings, and this gastrointestinal role is far more fundamental than actual digestion of food as the brain-to-gut connection is transposed onto complex objects of attraction which either move rhythmically, or can be synchronized with. This then becomes a platform on which two separate animals can synchronize if they can feel these deepest bodily movements rather than being swept up in the brainstorm activity.     It's a premise based on nothing. What we observe in animals, in terms of preparatory biochemical changes is the same thing we observe in E.coli.  There is no need to go into overcomplicated explanations when one has a firm grasp of the biochemistry involved.  However when one doesn't understand such things, then there is a need to invoke magical complicated processes to explain such things.     And still no experimental scheme or an explanation of how he transforms selective imitation into uncontrollable urge.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 2:00 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 492 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Kevin   One of the issues here is your lack of comprehension and your inability to organise data and experiments to support your claim and just as importanly to recognise areas where evidence is weak or may not support your claims. If you have bought Panksepps book, there is a succint few phrases on the concept of attraction on pps 45 and 46. It is well supported with data and references. So if i read your stuff which isn't, and read his which is just have a guess as to which i would support. This excerpt describes the quite simple mechanism of appetite. The smell and sight of food is indeed a stimulus. This stimulus causes a set series of behaviors. Some would use and manipulate this respsonse as the appetitive response to posiitve reinforcement . It is highly useful and i guess that we have agreement then that R+ is highly useful  Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 9:41 AM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  corgidog Joined on 12-26-2010 Posts 38 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact themilkyway and poodleowned, your lack of comprehension is unparalleled. you say kbehan has a lack of evidence/data and experiments to support his position. but what you fail to understand is that kbehan is offering an interpretation. what data/experiments would you like to see that haven't been done? how about this experiment... take two dogs side by side, tease both with a cookie and only give it to one of them. kbehan predicts that one of these dogs will go into avoidance when the treat is delivered to the other dog. the reason is that the physical memory of a correction as a puppy acts as a block toward the object of attraction. the dog experiences not receiving food as an actual correction and hence the avoidance. this leads us to believe that if you raise a dog w/out correction they will not go into avoidance when teased w/ a cookie. this interpretation is simple, elegant and makes sense. if dogs form associations w/ internal states/feelings but do not think, this perfectly explains what is seen in the experiment. now, compare this with the interpretation of the researches in vienna, who are obligated to construct an elaborate TOM in dogs to explain this behavior. the two are working with the same experiment and phenomenon but draw different conclusions. you can't make the claim that there is no evidence behind ndt. it is an interpretation of the evidence. themilkyway, i don't think you know much about religion or dog training. to compare the two reveals your inability to make distinctions and is further evidence of your superb ability to conflate unrelated concepts.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 11:19 AM

  In reply to corgidog

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 305 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact this leads us to believe that if you raise a dog w/out correction they will not go into avoidance when teased w/ a cookie.  So, with never corrected dogs,  if you continue giving to one dog and not the other, the slighted dog will not develop any negative response?  We've never corrected ours w/ food, and I haven't the heart to try.  But I just feel it in my gut that if I did, something negative would develop between them as a result of the unfair tease - it is just natural.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 1:25 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 165 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  When a dog is denied something it wants, it experiences intensity. This regresses the dog into physical memory. Many dogs will express personality displays or volunteer playful obedience behaviors or play bows, for reasons we could get into, but are associated with behaviors that led it to overcome earlier experiences of resistance/intensity. Whereas if the dog has been "overly trained" it will get stuck in avoidance behavior (as if it is being corrected for giving paw) as well as not displaying even earlier memories from its puppy hood and this is what caused researchers to misinterpret said dog as understanding that it was involved in a state of inequity. The pictures of dog in experiment are clear expressions of avoidance behavior as all people who work with dogs are well aware.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 1:37 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 305 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  I am not sure I am can buy this.  With two dogs and one is slighted, that is a different experience than just a lone dog not getting something.  There is a group setting in the former.
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 1:39 PM

  In reply to corgidog

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 139 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Corgidog your ignorance of basic science and its methodology is appalling. Any interpretation must be connected to the evidence, and Behan and you as his supplicant fail every time.   We all know that Behan has nothing, in fact he has less than nothing because much of the evidence refutes large portions of this ridiculous belief. Magical thinking is not required or allowed and that is just the case with Behan's interpretations.   Simply put your 'experiment' is garbage.  Until you show the existence of 'physical' memory - which btw is a lousy term since it is impossible for memory to exist outside the very physical brain.- you cannot  use it to explain away this very bad experiment. You also failed to show 'attraction' which is first required for NDT to make any sense. All you've done is the same that Behan has done for the past 30 pages, which is to irrationally explain away things he doesn't like and shoehorn them into his theory of everything. I was being polite.  NDT is more like a cult: the irrational nature of NDT, the ardent belief of it's followers in one guru, the unquestionable nature of its beliefs, the insular nature and shunning of anyone who doesn't believe...  It's why he no longer allows critiscism on his forum.. one cannot doubt the leader -  it's very close to a cult http://www.rickross.com/warningsigns.html   Behan can you explain how you turn selective imitation into uncontrollable urge? Can you come up with an experimental scheme to test your beliefs And have you learned anything about immunology since you last posted on the subject?

 page 34

• spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 13,630 Points 5,320

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  There's a lot about Whitehead I resonate with. But I don't see how it logically follows that animals think. On the other hand what you call reason may be what I call network consciousness. That might be a point of intersection.    So, yes or no, are you saying that dogs don't think?  Just for the record. Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, Red Tri Australian Shepherd Mix, CGC, TDInc., ITD Sequoyah, Red Merle Australian Shepherd, CGC, ATD Quanah, Hound Mix, Great Dog in Training Dancer, Border Collie/Spaniel Mix, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog Maska, Hound Mix, CGC, TDInc. (2000-2010) RIP Doodlebug Fergie, Yorkshire Terrier (1989-2010) RIP my little bugaboo In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 8:53 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 481 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   spiritdogs: Fair enough.  I guess my concern is that the terminology doesn't really reflect the feel that a reader might get from the word "natural" - which, today, is associated with things like "holistic" or "unadulterated" or "wholesome."  First of all, there's nothing "natural" about training dogs with e-collars, or with flat collars or harnesses, for that matter.  Dogs don't come with any of those accoutrements - we humans add them to the equation.  Call me oversensitive, but I've had about enough of people euphemizing the word "shock" into something it is not, and branding training with nebulous terminology to disguise either ruse, lack of education, or inability to argue a point or be accountable in terms of results.  A shock is not a tap, although it could be considered a stimulus - "stim" being ever so much kinder a terminology than "aversive stimulus" which is what most dogs probably perceive it to be, even at low levels.  Heck, I hate winter because I keep getting "stimmed" by the static electricity in my hair;-)   I entirely agree with the langauge issue. You have to give them one thing, they sure as hell made something nasty sound nearly ok. Can you imagine selling good old shock collars in toda'y's market? Well they work just the same with just a fraction more couthness, and of course they are scientifc, see Ma look at the knob or the slide with the numbers on it.... Numbers makes it scientific...  The next "natural" thing is to go on a suitable forum. Maximum kudos goes to the dog that least notices a huge shock. That wins you the state bragging rights... Yep, that lack of results always gets me.    Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 8:59 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 481 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  I want to hear the details of how his network consciousness work, so that i might have soemthing to work with. How do the creatures communicate? What is the physical layer? What is the communication? What is the reason for the communication/ What happens if something is wrong with the communication. Time to get specific... If you can't give some details, there is no point waiting for some researcher at the peaks of Nepal to find it for you...   Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 9:11 PM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  I'm saying that dogs don't think, with my definition of thinking being a mental capacity to compare one moment to another moment, or one point of view to another point of view. This doesn't mean that they aren't intelligent or aren't conscious, but that their cognition is of a group nature, and this is basically composed of emotion and its counterpart, stress.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-26-2011 9:48 PM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Network consciousness works by emotional experience capturing the energy of change (processes of nature, weather, things moving, any kind of change whatsoever) and incorporating it into an animals conscious awareness of its reality. This emotional state changes to varying degrees the way the animal feels for other living things with the phenomena of personality and sexuality being how this energy of change that has caused very real physiological changes in the animal, is harnessed and converted into social bonds. Because all animals share the same universal emotional core, they respond and act on others just as if they have an "emotional sonar" so that they can read the emotional states of others and thus very real physiological changes are induced simply by observation. Emotional experiences can be transmitted vicariously, just as dolphins can transmit acoustical pictures from one to another so others see what they haven't directly experienced. If there is a failure to convert a heightening of an emotional state into a bond, then the organism will experience greater and greater states of distress and this will compel it to interact in some way or another, we will observe this as friction (competition) and this will constantly keep the system in motion. Eventually, this "charge" at some point down the line will become part of a coherent expression of sociability, thus the network is always increasing in complexity. The validity of this idea can be tested as an exercise in logic because it asserts that all behavior is a function of attraction and so therefore, if this gives rise to a model that best encompasses the evidence before us, the necessary scientific experiments and statistical analysis could be done by researchers. Another interesting approach would be to design a robot using these principles to see if it can effectively mimic how animals behave and learn. In my view this could be done without much computational software per se; other than as what is needed to synthesize and execute actions. (In no way do I believe such robots would be conscious, it would simply demonstrate the primitive architecture of the deepest emotional core that all animals are endowed with, as opposed to the current top-heavy high horsepower computational approach.) I believe evolution works like a hacker, the less lines of code, the less chance for error, the more adaptable to change in real time. Emotion makes an animal "network-enabled" so that the information is available from the environment itself, the animal doesn't have to be fully loaded at the "factory." Imagine if all the information on the internet had to be preloaded on a computer. Not efficient. So all living things form a network, and this creates an overarching storehouse of information which can be accessed and added to.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 6:40 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  spiritdogs Joined on 09-10-2007 Posts 13,630 Points 5,320

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  I'm saying that dogs don't think, with my definition of thinking being a mental capacity to compare one moment to another moment, or one point of view to another point of view. This doesn't mean that they aren't intelligent or aren't conscious, but that their cognition is of a group nature, and this is basically composed of emotion and its counterpart, stress.    While I agree with your premise that it's good that animals don't come "preloaded at the factory" I'm not so sure they can't compare one moment to another moment, depending on what one's definition is.  Memory, by definition, compares one moment in time to another.  I can say, with certainty, that dogs can recognize people they know in places they have never been before, by sight, not scent, and without any cue whatsoever from the human they are with (who, in my particular situation, had her back turned to the dog and was engaged in conversation with someone else).  Also, the fact that a dog will bait another dog with a toy means that they understand that the other dog might be engaged to chase in that next moment, and they are ready for the game which they fully intend to start.  I do think that well socialized dogs realize when another dog is unwilling to play, for example.  Sure, it's communicated by body language, but how many times have you yourself realized by seeing a wince or a scowl that you should leave the human who is doing that alone.  The circuitry that tells you that is probably quite similar to that which tells the dog.  I am willing to be open-minded and let research eventually tell us exactly where the line falls between the species in terms of what they can and cannot think about.  But, your definitions are based (again) on your feelings, not on any valid construct that we have been able to get you to elucidate in terms of scientific inquiry.  At least now, we have a statement on the matter that eventually will prove you right or wrong, even if it's not in either of our lifetimes.  My guess is that dogs are more similar to other social organisms, including humans, than we currently realize, and that the main reason for our preposterous insistence that they aren't is based more on simple human arrogance, and their lack of language, than the much-needed study of organic brain chemistry and cognition that is beginning to take place (thank goodness).  Keep Alex in mind as you formulate your theories on dogs, because we've just begun the studies on them that will, hopefully unlock the secrets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_%28parrot%29   Regional Director for Massachusetts, International Positive Dog Training Association Director, SeniorCare Pawsitive Connections Program AKC CGC Evaluator #3669 Therapy Dogs, Inc. Tester/Observer Sioux, Red Tri Australian Shepherd Mix, CGC, TDInc., ITD Sequoyah, Red Merle Australian Shepherd, CGC, ATD Quanah, Hound Mix, Great Dog in Training Dancer, Border Collie/Spaniel Mix, CGC, TDInc. (1989-2006) #1 Heart Dog Maska, Hound Mix, CGC, TDInc. (2000-2010) RIP Doodlebug Fergie, Yorkshire Terrier (1989-2010) RIP my little bugaboo In memory of Mike, please become an organ donor today. "If you talk to the animals they will talk with you and you will know each other. If you do not talk to them you will not know them and what you do not know, you will fear. What one fears, one destroys." - Chief Dan George "The fidelity of a dog is a precious gift demanding no less binding moral responsibilities than the friendship of a human being. The bond with a true dog is as lasting as the ties of this earth can ever be." ~ Konrad Lorenz

  Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 7:38 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact My guess is that dogs are more similar to other social organisms, including humans, than we currently realize, and that the main reason for our preposterous insistence that they aren't is based more on simple human arrogance, and their lack of language, than the much-needed study of organic brain chemistry and cognition that is beginning to take place (thank goodness).   Absolutely accurate and poignantly said, SD. Since the medieval churchmen gave 'rational souls' to men alone, the Western mind has been DEEPLY prejudiced to hold fast to this bulls**t originating w/ Aristotle's 'science' and embellished by Thomas Aquinas' philosophy/theology.  Even those wishing to throw off the medieval spooks - like DesCartes - couldn't manage to use their own eyes to get beyond anthropocentrism to observe that dogs are feeling, conscious, and primitively rational.  The empiricists did start to use their eyes, thus we have Hume saying if animal behavior appears analogous to ours, it must mean we have similar operating systems.  Despite realists like Hume and naturalists like Darwin, old myths die HARD, and we see learned modern people walking around with blinders on as they repeat the HARMFUL myths of Aristotean-Thomistic metaphysics that man is set apart ontologically with an immaterial soul.  If I got one, so does Happy, Sissy, Red, and even our little sh*t, Peanut! (I just like to tease her, I really love her.)  When I hear a modern scientist or just a dog trainer unknowingly reverberating the bogus 'rational soul' anthropocentrism, I want to make dog food of them.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 8:07 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  In my model, your innermost animal, the source of one's sociability, is a dog. How's that for similarity?
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 8:40 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  canidcentrism - better yet, alpocentrism!  Better than anthropocentrism, though.  I always wondered why a dog licking its genitals so impressed me!
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 8:50 AM

  In reply to Burl

  corgidog Joined on 12-26-2010 Posts 36 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact what you've missed is that your way of thinking is just an extension of a "western mentality", that you only think you are rejecting. in reality, you are embracing it unknowingly. you are maintaining the belief that there is only value/worth/respect/dignity, in the rational/thinking mind. therefore, you are obligated to extend animals rational thinking minds, so as to provide them with value/worth/respect/dignity. this is a self defeating logic loop. i believe it to be more arrogant to defend this ******** belief, that the only intelligence that exists is a product of a brain. if instead, the human mind is merely an elaboration of a more fundamental intelligence, as ndt suggests, respect for all things follows.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 9:21 AM

  In reply to corgidog

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   corgidog: what you've missed is that your way of thinking is just an extension of a "western mentality", that you only think you are rejecting. in reality, you are embracing it unknowingly. you are maintaining the belief that there is only value/worth/respect/dignity, in the rational/thinking mind. therefore, you are obligated to extend animals rational thinking minds, so as to provide them with value/worth/respect/dignity. this is a self defeating logic loop. i believe it to be more arrogant to defend this ******** belief, that the only intelligence that exists is a product of a brain. if instead, the human mind is merely an elaboration of a more fundamental intelligence, as ndt suggests, respect for all things follows.     Well said and true for many, but not this pilgrim.  I say we must look upon humans as merely more highly evolved mentally - in NO WAY does this mean I put a higher value on rationality.  It is a faculty we have in bucketfuls compared to other mammals - that is it. Further, I have argued with many Aristotelean-Thiomists (A-Ters) that the very thing they say that makes man special and apart from nature and thus worthy of meeting God - rationality - is INDEED the faculty that makes us most UNdeserving of any such self-glorification.  My dogs are so valuable to me because they center me back in nature: they are not ruled by rationality - they are more emotional.  But this does not mean they lack rationality either - they, like many mammals, evolved a degree of reasoning ability to help them negotiate their environments better.  They don't have as elaborate a cortex, partly since  they don't need it to walk on 4 vs 2 legs.   Hopefully, after reading this, you can get a sense of why I do not completely turn my back on Kevin's NDT talk, but also why I sympathize with many of its outspoken critics.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 11:32 AM

  In reply to spiritdogs

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  If the premise is that dogs have a mind akin to ours, then why can't we use our subjective feelings as a legitimate means of inquiry because the premise is that we have some aspect of this in common with all animals?The trick would be to parse apart emotion from instinct, a feeling from a thought. Also, I'm not saying that dogs don't have a memory, I'm saying that they have a physical memory and can't think about it so as to compare a moment from the past to a moment in present or future, and then make decisions based on that kind of linear analysis. Dogs' can't remember, but they never forget. They don't remember the past, they relive it. Furthermore, this physical memory to which I allude has a qualitative aspect (the specifics by which it was acquired) as well as a quantitative aspect (an "emotional mass" by which it has something in common with all other sentient beings). The qualitative aspect elicits old habits of mind and instincts, whereas the quantitative aspect (and this is the basis of what I mean by a "true" feeling) is the means by which any two animals can emotionally communicate because it recapitulates the earliest memories of life, being pushed and pulled, the feeling of warm flow coursing into the gut, warm tactile sensuality, etc.. This allows a new emotional value to displace an old qualitative memory. This latter modality of memory equips the individual to intelligently adapt to its surroundings because now its physiology and neurology are working in conformance to the same principles by which the natural world changes. Thus, by being social, it becomes a prediction of potential energy able to be realized via a cooperative team effort.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 11:52 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact If the premise is that dogs have a mind akin to ours, then why can't we use our subjective feelings as a legitimate means of inquiry because the premise is that we have some aspect of this in common with all animals? Can't we say we have the same problem trying to reach severely autistic people?  We have a radically different signaling (language) system, for one thing.  Do autistic people think?  Must we posit their emotions work from an entirely different physiology than ours - as you make up for dogs - simply because their autistic behavior is different from what we easily grasp?  One other thing, a brain requires a lot of your favorite stuff - energy - to function, so it better pay off with big dividends.  Dogs have brains that a structured a whole lot like ours.  And I know for a fact they are working hard.  I can feel some waste energy being emitted as heat from their head most of the time - noticeably more heat than from the rest of their body. The following is what I mean by making-up your own physiology to account for behavior differences that, as SpiritDogs points out, is obfuscated by having a very limited common dog-human language: Also, I'm not saying that dogs don't have a memory, I'm saying that they have a physical memory and can't think about it so as to compare a moment from the past to a moment in present or future, and then make decisions based on that kind of linear analysis. Dogs' can't remember, but they never forget. They don't remember the past, they relive it. Furthermore, this physical memory to which I allude has a qualitative aspect (the specifics by which it was acquired) as well as a quantitative aspect (an "emotional mass" by which it has something in common with all other sentient beings). The qualitative aspect elicits old habits of mind and instincts, whereas the quantitative aspect (and this is the basis of what I mean by a "true" feeling) is the means by which any two animals can emotionally communicate because it recapitulates the earliest memories of life, being pushed and pulled, the feeling of warm flow coursing into the gut, warm tactile sensuality, etc.. This allows a new emotional value to displace an old qualitative memory. This latter modality of memory equips the individual to intelligently adapt to its surroundings because now its physiology and neurology are working in conformance to the same principles by which the natural world changes. Thus, by being social, it becomes a prediction of potential energy able to be realized via a cooperative team effort.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 12:29 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-23-2010 Posts 158 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  If I have to take a stab at it I would say that autistic people think very much, this in fact is the problem. Everything is mental. I heard one autistic person after being told that the meal they were being served will taste even better the next day as left overs, the autistic guest replied: "Then why didn't you make it yesterday?" The trouble seems to be feelings, and by this I mean the brain-to-gut connection and the interplay of physical memory in its quantitative sense. Also, human brain is singular among animal kingdom in that it consumes a huge dose of energy as Sapolasky (?) noted in the lecture cited earlier. This is a profound distinction between man and dog. When we would sit around and think, dogs take a nap.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-27-2011 12:36 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 292 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  The dog brains are at work while they rest and when they sleep.  Their brains are eating up a lot of energy, like ours. If I have to take a stab at it I would say that autistic people think very much, this in fact is the problem. Everything is mental.  OK. In really severe cases, the autistic does not speak, and maybe then one could posit no thoughts.  But as you correctly say, he/she thinks a lot.  Can you describe their thoughts...and...in the case where dogs, too, do not speak...can you say what their thoughts are? No.   Shouldn't we all presume the severe autistic's thoughts are something like ours.   So, how about doing something similar for dogs and dolphins and apes?  Hume, Darwin, Whitehead, and Panksepp say you must.

 page 40

• Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 316 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact The more we learn how dogs REALLY think, the better we will be able to communicate with them.  So, none of us should be afraid to be wrong, rather we should remain inquisitive.  I want to know more about dogs, and be able to enhance my relationships with them.   But then, I'm an information junkie, and want to know more about a lot of things.  What I don't want is for people to blindly follow, or refuse to let go of, theories in favor of evidence. Right on.  I think listening to a scientist like Gopnick on infant behavior and further synthesis with other's new neuroscience findings, as well as seeing how what we understood before still has causal explicability -- that is the stuff of creative learning. I highlighted your last sentence, SD, as I would also note that we always have to be aware that for any 'theory', evidence can be posited as confirmation, yet be wrong due to bias.  The upshot is we should ALWAYS speak in a qualified manner rather than with assertive certainty (this is the stuff of opinion, not fact).  This is how we talk with one another and keep a conversation alive for novelty and creative advance.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 9:21 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 316 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact The upshot is we should ALWAYS speak in a qualified manner rather than with assertive certainty (this is the stuff of opinion, not fact). I see the contradiction in what I said, yet it still seems right, IMO.
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 10:25 AM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  corgidog Joined on 12-26-2010 Posts 41 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact @themilkway you take the bait, hook line and sinker everytime!
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 10:41 AM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 178 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact What you consider parsimonious, is fraught with innumerable assumptions and articles of faith. Whereas if  someone objectively deconstructs their experience of stumbling in a public place, even when completely alone, they can vividly remember the uncomfortable sense of being the object of attention, and hence the negative experience. No pontification can obscure what anyone can apprehend for themselves and other explanations are hopelessly complex and full of internal contradictions.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 10:47 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 178 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Right, you are making a logical argument referenced with some science, (albeit one which lacks a definition of emotion) and which is at some point (or points) predicated on an article of faith or assumptions based on personal experiences and the powers of observation. Likewise I am making a logical argument referenced with some science and articles of faith/assumptions (although I am arguing it is populated with far fewer because it is based on a definition of emotion). So either we both fail the phoney/baloney Sagan test, or we both pass.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 10:50 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 316 Points 55	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact Infants, certainty, temperament, neuroscience and Kagan  http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podcast/2007/04/aim_20070421.mp3
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 11:08 AM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 178 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Thanks for the link and also a point about certainty. Sooner or later one has to be certain about something. Our modern overly intellectualized age is so enamored of irony, no one wants to be certain about anything. The problem is that nature abhors a vacuum, and into this void no matter how smart one might think they are, the default settings impose themselves on the mind. I'm not particularly well read in the classics but I do recall one ancient Greek expression in this regard, "The Furies attack through the very faculty that denies their existence." .

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 11:29 AM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 151 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   poodleOwned: So the challenge is to work with us, to change what is rubbish and find out what is good. I think that what you may face is pure naked fear. What if what you say isn't right? What say you need to find other answers to how you work that explains for you what you do? In my book the really big person is the one that says "look i think that i got this wrong and i need to change what i am saying and doing in these areas"..     Early on I learned the value of checking and verifying findings and having the courage to ask from your own research what you demand from others. The value of documentation, verification and independent duplication cannot be over emphasized when it comes to testing the validity of one's ideas.  As a young summer student I worked for 3 months looking for a protein that kept showing up on the results but looked anomalous to the PI - "too good"  There was discussion as to whether this was an artifact or not. This blot showed up even when the PI himself did the job to check on his RA's work. Did the PI discover something new?  My job was to isolate it and characterize it  After weeks and weeks and weeks of work; looking and repeating the previous tech's work I was able to track down the origin to a synergistic combination of improperly stored reagents and a seemingly insignificant (at least from a logical standpoint) change in the written protocols.   I never would have been able to do so without the exquisitely detained notes kept by the previous tech. The PI was willing to ask hard questions from his results and have a lowly B.Sc. summer student tech check his work.  If Behan had been in charge, the answer would have been yes, and he would have demanded that the rest of the world adjust their thinking to accommodate his error.  Science works differently.  It's also a lesson I took to my own career, it makes the techs happy to know their work and input is valued - and makes my work better.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 11:31 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 316 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  "The Furies attack through the very faculty that denies their existence." This argues for skeptical vigilence over dogmatic certainty (ala, denies).  Kagan, Gopnick, and posters here all argue for the probabilistic test of a theory against known evidence.  Today, theory X is most probable given evidence a, b, and c, but tomorrow, theory Y may seem more probable given a, b, c, and new evidence d, e, and f.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 11:35 AM

  In reply to corgidog

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 151 Points 25	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   corgidog: @themilkway you take the bait, hook line and sinker everytime! Corgidog, you are ignorant of many things and instead of accepting it, which would allow you to learn, you choose to strike out.  It's pathetic.
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 11:41 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 151 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: What you consider parsimonious, is fraught with innumerable assumptions and articles of faith. Whereas if  someone objectively deconstructs their experience of stumbling in a public place, even when completely alone, they can vividly remember the uncomfortable sense of being the object of attention, and hence the negative experience. No pontification can obscure what anyone can apprehend for themselves and other explanations are hopelessly complex and full of internal contradictions.     So you keep saying but when pressed for details you cower in the corner?  Then again you spout crap like 'uncontrollable urge' when you read 'selective imitation' but when pressed you can't explain how you came up with it. Why haven't you been able to come up with a scheme to test NDT?  BTW, it's not just me. OTOH, only you and the poor victims believe what you say.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 11:51 AM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 151 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan:  Right, you are making a logical argument referenced with some science, (albeit one which lacks a definition of emotion) and which is at some point (or points) predicated on an article of faith or assumptions based on personal experiences and the powers of observation. Likewise I am making a logical argument referenced with some science and articles of faith/assumptions (although I am arguing it is populated with far fewer because it is based on a definition of emotion). So either we both fail the phoney/baloney Sagan test, or we both pass.   Network consciouness = Faith Phyiscal memory = Faith Emotional center of gravity = Faith Every aspect of NDT is based on your emotional beliefs.  The Hypocrisy inherent in your posts is mind boggling.  As far as baloney, you fail every time.  And what Burl proposes cannot be characterized as baloney for the reasons outlined in the very first post.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 12:05 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  TheMilkyWay Joined on 11-02-2010 Posts 151 Points 25

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: Sooner or later one has to be certain about something.   NO. Certainty is for those who peddle religion like you.  Two quotes from Feynman   "We absolutely must leave room for doubt or there is no progress and no learning. There is no learning without having to pose a question. And a question requires doubt. People search for certainty. But there is no certainty. People are terrified–how can you live and not know? It is not odd at all. You can think you know, as a matter of fact. And most of your actions are based on incomplete knowledge and you really don't know what it is all about, or what the purpose of the world is, or know a great deal of other things. It is possible to live and not know." "It you thought that science was certain -- well, that is just an error on your part" However this doesn't mean we can't have facts, as Gould points out.  "In science, “fact” can only mean “confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.”     Kevin Behan: The problem is that nature abhors a vacuum Pathetic fallacy. Nature doesn't abhor anything... it can't  And the universe is at least 99.999999999999999999999999% vacuum. I won't speak for Nature, but it seems to me that Behan abhors knowledge.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 12:21 PM

  In reply to TheMilkyWay

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 316 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   TheMilkyWay:   Kevin Behan: Sooner or later one has to be certain about something.   NO. Certainty is for those who peddle religion like you.  Two quotes from Feynman   "We absolutely must leave room for doubt or there is no progress and no learning. There is no learning without having to pose a question. And a question requires doubt. People search for certainty. But there is no certainty. People are terrified–how can you live and not know? It is not odd at all. You can think you know, as a matter of fact. And most of your actions are based on incomplete knowledge and you really don't know what it is all about, or what the purpose of the world is, or know a great deal of other things. It is possible to live and not know." "It you thought that science was certain -- well, that is just an error on your part" However this doesn't mean we can't have facts, as Gould points out.  "In science, “fact” can only mean “confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.”   Very good description of healthy agnosticism.  My PhD advisor's favorite way of stating this was "Everything is random [probabilistic] and non-linear."  And this is in probably the most deterministic branch of engineering there is - structures.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 12:43 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 178 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact It's refreshing to hear that those here on this forum are not certain that sexuality is fundamentally about procreation, that behavior is not fundamentally about survival and competition over resources, that thinking is the most parsimonious explanation for complex intelligent behavior, that learning is not the direct result of material reinforcement, and therefore are open to those who are willing to question these assumptions.

 page 41

• poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 480 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Burl: Very good description of healthy agnosticism.  My PhD advisor's favorite way of stating this was "Everything is random [probabilistic] and non-linear."  And this is in probably the most deterministic branch of engineering there is - structures.     I like your supervisor. I must admit though that it isn't just Kevin that has mild tantrums in the face of this kind of philosoply. If we were just a little bit honest we would admit that many engineers never quite get it. They are quite painful to deal with. "You mean there is more than one answer?!!" Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 3:18 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  poodleOwned Joined on 01-13-2009 Melbourne Australia Posts 480 Points 100

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact   Kevin Behan: (albeit one which lacks a definition of emotion)     That isn't quite rght any more. Quite a few would gather around what Panksepp says. It is based on anatomical evidence and is a convienient way of working with behavorual phenomena arising from certain cirucits of the brain.  Personally, I am hesitant to transfer my own personal experience and feelings to represent the whole. Quite happy to accept that i may not be the norm and really it doesn't matter. As soon as you are talking along these lines, you are talking about cognitive mediation of what you think emotions might or should be. Now that is a mess!! Tch Cadbury CDX (RIP) Tch Nascere Bella Nera UD Ch Jenuin Constanine TD

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 4:21 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 285 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact What PoodleO said w/r to dog people who are interested in affect/cognition valuing Panksepp sounds right.     Also, there were 5 points Kevin raised many posts back of basic beliefs of the majority posting here.  They are all probably items on which Panksepp (and most neuroscientists/ethologists) would buy into. As for yet another list of points from Kevin asserting inconsistencies in what most here might hold in view of scientific skeptical approach versus what is fundamental fact, we have:   Kevin Behan: It's refreshing to hear that those here on this forum are not certain that sexuality is fundamentally about procreation, that behavior is not fundamentally about survival and competition over resources, that thinking is the most parsimonious explanation for complex intelligent behavior, that learning is not the direct result of material reinforcement, and therefore are open to those who are willing to question these assumptions.   This newest (and probably soon to be forgotten) list of items which are basic to evolution of species has not really come up on this thread in the manner suggested by Kevin's wording, but I think with the few marked alterations, we would all agree: [T]hose here on this forum are not certain that sexuality is fundamentally exclusively about procreation, that behavior is not fundamentally simply about survival and competition over resources, that thinking is the most parsimonious [only] explanation for complex [what is commonly considered] intelligent behavior, that learning is not the direct result of material reinforcement [? what is material reinforcement ?], and therefore are open to those who are willing to question these assumptions.

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 5:20 PM

  In reply to poodleOwned

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 151 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  It's not at all a mess once instinct is separate from emotion and thoughts precipitated from feeling.
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 5:29 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 151 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  I was pointing out a double standard. I'm certain about what I'm certain about, just as the others are certain about what they're certain about so the certainty question is a red herring. That doesn't settle the debate. At any rate, in regards to properly articulating the consensus I will reprise what I think are agreed upon points for those in this forum, sans me. 1) Dogs are capable of a theory of mind. 2) A dog's higher cognitive processes (thinking/reason) can modulate emotional affective systems. 3) Dogs are capable of deception. 4) Dogs have a grasp of time and some degree of abstract concepts. Therefore given the above, the important question for me becomes, in your view, does this mean a dog can hide what it is feeling, or even fake a feeling since a dog is self-consciously aware of a feeling, and how what it feels and what it does thereby affects the minds of others that entertain divergent perspectives, and then how the consequences of how what it feels and what it does affects what others feel and do over the course of time via a linear cause and effect?

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 6:03 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 285 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  I was pointing out a double standard. I'm certain about what I'm certain about, just as the others are certain about what they're certain about so the certainty question is a red herring. That doesn't settle the debate.  I think you have to be aware of what is at issue: it is your certainty about your enigmatic speculations on the nature of reality of which I and most others are equally certain not to be the case.  From our various statements, I glean the general consensus of most here conforms w/ the method and attitude of scientific skepticism and probabilistic analysis/valuation of hypotheses.   At any rate, in regards to properly articulating the consensus I will reprise what I think are agreed upon points for those in this forum, sans me. 1) Dogs are capable of a theory of mind. 2) A dog's higher cognitive processes (thinking/reason) can modulate emotional affective systems. 3) Dogs are capable of deception. 4) Dogs have a grasp of time and some degree of abstract concepts.  This is not your original nor my modified list you started with.  It appears you've given it a third face to go off on another tangent below...  Therefore given the above, the important question for me becomes, in your view, does this mean a dog can hide what it is feeling, or even fake a feeling since a dog is self-consciously aware of a feeling, and how what it feels and what it does thereby affects the minds of others that entertain divergent perspectives, and then how the consequences of how what it feels and what it does affects what others feel and do over the course of time via a linear cause and effect?  Emphasis mine.  Two things strike me here: 1) Why is this the most important question that arises from what you now hold to be the key tenets of most posters here? 2)  What exactly do you want to ask?

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 7:04 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 151 Points 0	Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  Can dogs mask, and/or hide and/or deny what they're feeling in deference to context and/or point of view of others?
  	Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 7:16 PM

  In reply to Kevin Behan

  Burl Joined on 08-04-2010 Baton Rouge Posts 285 Points 55

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  I don't know.   But I have a question you like to answer at your site.  Peanut used to be the one to instigate a little tug play by selecting a toy and bringing it to one of us.  Red and Sissy would also then join in.  Time passes where little toy play occurred and Sissy is gone.  Martha brought home a few new toys and Red is gaga over a couple and shakes them like she's killing them.  Peanut stands back and emits whines and will not play w/ me and Red or alone w/ any toy.  What's up?

  Post Points: 0

• 01-30-2011 7:30 PM

  In reply to Burl

  Kevin Behan Joined on 12-22-2010 Posts 151 Points 0

  Re: Sagan’s Baloney Detection Kit on NDT philosophy Reply Contact  I'll cogitate and offer an opinion on my site, but I'm a little unclear about what's happening. When you say Sissy is gone, you mean absent from the room or has she passed away? And so is this also unusual that Peanuts has no interest in the toy, and that she has only played with toys when Sissy and Red were in the picture so that now without Sissy she's not interested whatsoever, and then finally, what was the dynamic between Peanuts and Sissy, and Red and Sissy?