Aggressive dogs vet visits

 Isn't there an intelligence difference between a dog and dolphin?

jdata

 Isn't there an intelligence difference between a dog and dolphin?

Some people think so: http://www.physorg.com/news181981904.html

Some people also believe, and this was proven by Seligman's research, that dogs can suffer from "learned helplessness" as the result of being punished and not being in control of their environment.  Synopsis here: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-learned-helplessness.htm

If you want to read the actual research paper, you may need to pay for the privilege, but here's a link: http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.me.23.020172.002203?journalCode=med

As to muzzling a dog to go to the vet, a smart owner does that if there is any reason to believe that the dog will be tempted to be aggressive, no matter how small the possibility, and whether or not the dog is usually well behaved and obedient.  That goes for newbie owners, trainers, behaviorists, or any smart human being.   No one should have so much ego that they fail to keep their dog and the public safe.  And, a dog that suffers from a medical condition that can contribute to aggressive behavior is NOT a product of poor training.  In fact, such dogs are often the most obedient dogs in the waiting room. You'd be amazed how appreciative veterinarians are that some people take that very simple precaution rather than worrying about what others think. 

 Solve the problem of a dog being afraid or in pain? I'd be interested to hear about that. I had a dog for six years, who wore a muzzle, every time she walked into the vet's office. She was titled in rally obedience (RAE, highest level), nationally ranked for her breed, and had her Canine Good Citizen. She also had a list as long as your arm of very serious health problems, and developed some lightening fast reflexes in response to pain and stress. How would you go about fixing that?

jennie_c_d

Solve the problem of a dog being afraid or in pain? I'd be interested to hear about that. I had a dog for six years, who wore a muzzle, every time she walked into the vet's office. She was titled in rally obedience (RAE, highest level), nationally ranked for her breed, and had her Canine Good Citizen. She also had a list as long as your arm of very serious health problems, and developed some lightening fast reflexes in response to pain and stress. How would you go about fixing that?

Thats my point, a lot of dogs out there are champions on obedience and still have behavioral problems. Is the problem really about health or is just behavioral but it's misdiagnosed as health related?

 I actually read an article in.... Front and Finish, maybe.... just recently on this very subject. Domestic animals can take a lot more aversion than wild animals.

I am not a positive only trainer. I've used aversives in a lot of situations, but they wouldn't ever work on my Cockatiel, so she is purely clicker trained. The dogs are told, "eh!". They have to wear a leash (which is aversive, to certain dogs, one of mine included). Emma, the dog who bit people, experienced more aversives than the current dogs both because of her general constitution and because of my lack of creative thinking, at the time. I got a LOT more positive with her, as the years went on, but she still needed to be told off, on occasion. I don't have any problem with that.

I still don't see what that has to do with her striking in pain and fear.

jennie_c_d

 Solve the problem of a dog being afraid or in pain? I'd be interested to hear about that. I had a dog for six years, who wore a muzzle, every time she walked into the vet's office. She was titled in rally obedience (RAE, highest level), nationally ranked for her breed, and had her Canine Good Citizen. She also had a list as long as your arm of very serious health problems, and developed some lightening fast reflexes in response to pain and stress. How would you go about fixing that?

You really can't fix it in the sense of being absolutely sure that the dog will never react.  It all depends on the individual dog's threshold for anxiety or pain.  Obviously, you make the vet seem to be the best person in the world (my dogs always got cheese whiz when the door opened and the vet appeared, except if they might have a procedure that required fasting).  Even though I still take precautions, my dog has never actually nipped at her vet.  But, she is still a highly reactive, anxious dog, so I just use some added insurance in addition to being able to cue her to "stand -stay".  While I'm not the anxious type, I would submit that many owners would be far less anxious about their own dogs' behavior if the dog were muzzled at the vet or groomer's.  It is often ego, or embarrassment (and we all know that some people might actually harass you about being a bad owner, or poor trainer, if your dog is muzzled...), that causes owners to reject the idea of muzzling.  But, the muzzled dog is really the safest dog in the room;-)  In any case, one of the vets at our clinic was so impressed with my dog's behavior despite being muzzled that we had a conversation about it, in which I told her that everyone who comes through my classes is instructed on how to condition the dog to wear a muzzle or a head halter just in case they ever need to.  She was flabbergasted that I take the time to do that, and now refers clients to me for business because of the thorough nature of our program.

I know this is a bit off topic but if I think I might be anxious about what's going to happen with my dog, I leave.  If I didn't trust my vet to care for my dog without me present, I'd be using a different vet.  Sometimes the owner's anxiety makes things a lot worse.  For example, when Coke had this nasty hot spot, the vet took him away from me out of the room to shave and treat it.  I tried to do it myself but he was so uncomfortable it made me nervous.  I'm not grossed out by that stuff but I hated the thought of holding him down and causing more pain in his own home.  Coke has a low tolerance for pain and he doesn't bite but he struggles and screams.  She cleaned him up away from me, so when he got back to the exam room, his tail was wagging and he was happy to get attention from the vet.  He might be leery about the grooming table in the back, but now he has no negative association with going to the exam room, and I wasn't making him more anxious during the procedure (I did hear him screaming).

 Having actually read the dolphin studies... anyway, I think a major point here is that despite all the training of any sort you do, whether it be R+, P+, you have to remember that it is an animal. Additionally, having read the Pryor books, I know that R+ has been used to train wolves successfully. However, this did not mean that they threw caution to the wind, and decided any of the animals was 100% trustworthy. No reason it's not possible to train a dog with R+ alone, but lots of reasons why people don't do it.

spiritdogs

But, she is still a highly reactive, anxious dog

But why do you think that behavioral issue has not been resolved?

espencer

spiritdogs

But, she is still a highly reactive, anxious dog

But why do you think that behavioral issue has not been resolved?

Because  the medical condition that caused it still exists.  In a perfect world we could solve all problems, but the world is not perfect and sometimes we must deal with dogs that have various imperfections.  Deaf dogs, dogs with hip dysplasia, dogs with seizure disorders, dogs with painful skin conditions, allergies, or digestive problems.  Any and all of these can cause a dog anxiety, and while we can ameliorate this a lot with things like training, behavior modification, and even assistive aids such as Thundershirts, we cannot blithely assume that these dogs will never feel enough pain to react, be frightened enough to react (even humans' blood pressure has been known to increase while at a doctor visit), or will reach a threshold sooner because of age or a change in the medical condition.  So, prudence dictates that you manage such dogs extra safely to prevent their getting into trouble. 

Liesje

I know this is a bit off topic but if I think I might be anxious about what's going to happen with my dog, I leave.  If I didn't trust my vet to care for my dog without me present, I'd be using a different vet.  Sometimes the owner's anxiety makes things a lot worse.  For example, when Coke had this nasty hot spot, the vet took him away from me out of the room to shave and treat it.  I tried to do it myself but he was so uncomfortable it made me nervous.  I'm not grossed out by that stuff but I hated the thought of holding him down and causing more pain in his own home.  Coke has a low tolerance for pain and he doesn't bite but he struggles and screams.  She cleaned him up away from me, so when he got back to the exam room, his tail was wagging and he was happy to get attention from the vet.  He might be leery about the grooming table in the back, but now he has no negative association with going to the exam room, and I wasn't making him more anxious during the procedure (I did hear him screaming).

Good for you for having chosen a vet that you have utter confidence in.  Thus, you were able to avoid having your dog have a negative association with his home, or the exam room.  Shepherds often scream just when their owners leave the room (number one reason they fail the CGC - supervised separation exercise), so not surprising that he would scream under those circumstances.  A little screaming is much better than a really bad hot spot getting worse, though;-)  Just an aside, if he gets them often, have his thyroid tested, too.  Skin problems like hot spots can be associated with hypothyroidism.

espencer

jennie_c_d

Solve the problem of a dog being afraid or in pain? I'd be interested to hear about that. I had a dog for six years, who wore a muzzle, every time she walked into the vet's office. She was titled in rally obedience (RAE, highest level), nationally ranked for her breed, and had her Canine Good Citizen. She also had a list as long as your arm of very serious health problems, and developed some lightening fast reflexes in response to pain and stress. How would you go about fixing that?

Thats my point, a lot of dogs out there are champions on obedience and still have behavioral problems. Is the problem really about health or is just behavioral but it's misdiagnosed as health related?

I don't see how a misdiagnosis would be to blame if this "hypothetical" dog gets lab tests every six months.

spiritdogs

I don't see how a misdiagnosis would be to blame if this "hypothetical" dog gets lab tests every six months.

We dont have to use an "hypothetical" dog. What causes your dog to get anxious at the vet? Mine also gets anxious but thats because all the smells at the vet's lobby. I then lower this excitement by wating outside. Could i use corrections? maybe but he is not really dangerous so there is not a very very real need of him being still, i save the use of corrections this way.