What's Your Opinion?

hmm, i feel it is pretty unnecessary, then... hmm..

dont get me wrong, i love moca's "nub" (talking about tails again, obviously). it's the cutest little thing. but i still wouldnt chose to crop my dog JUST for looks, because why put em through it? *shrug*

but then again, you will also routinely see my dogs with horrible grooms, just because i dont have time to trim their coats "nicely", so in those cases i just do it for their comfort and hygiene...

Cropping now is mostly cosmetic, but i know with a lot of breeds it served a purpose originally. I have always been told that dobes were cropped so that if they were guarding and had to bring down someone, the perp couldn't grab onto their ears.

I feel if people are going to be anti crop and dock, they'll have to be anti circumcision too. The only true medical reason i know of that would make a circ necessary is phimosis, and i don't think that's very common. So one could argue that it is also purely cosmetic.

janetmichel3009

dont get me wrong, i love moca's "nub" (talking about tails again, obviously). it's the cutest little thing. but i still wouldnt chose to crop my dog JUST for looks, because why put em through it? *shrug*

At 3 days old thou - they won't remember or care for more the a minute or 2, as soon as they're back with Mom they're fine. It's like giving a human baby a shot - they whine and cry the whole time but as soon as its done they forget.

RidgebackGermansShep

 

I feel if people are going to be anti crop and dock, they'll have to be anti circumcision too. The only true medical reason i know of that would make a circ necessary is phimosis, and i don't think that's very common. So one could argue that it is also purely cosmetic.

And the nasty-est thing about that is that it the MOTHERS choice.......EWwww on so many levels.....

misstrouble

At 3 days old thou - they won't remember or care for more the a minute or 2, as soon as they're back with Mom they're fine. It's like giving a human baby a shot - they whine and cry the whole time but as soon as its done they forget.

yeah, i know.... i understand. but if the ONLY reason i am doing it for is looks, then i'd still rather not do it...

i dont consider myself anti-docking/cropping per se... i dont think it's the worst thing in the world if someone wants to do it, precicely BECAUSE it is so uninvasive at the age it is done... but i do think it's kinda twisted that it is often done because of standards... just dont get it i guess...

for that matter i find circumcision pretty weird as well... especially cause it can still easily be done as an adult (therefor out of choice)... i assume we are talking about male circumsision here... dont get me started on female circumsision... *shudder*

Yes i think now it's more of a tradition type thing. Personally i like the looks of a good crop, but if the breeder didn't do it and do all the taping, etc...i wouldn't go pay a vet to do it.

RidgebackGermansShep

Yes i think now it's more of a tradition type thing. Personally i like the looks of a good crop, but if the breeder didn't do it and do all the taping, etc...i wouldn't go pay a vet to do it.

I agree with that. Maybe if I got involved breeding a tradionally docked breed, I'd do it. But ear cropping - no way! I'd be scared I'd mess it up!

I own two cropped/docked breeds, & I fully support the practice. 

I am of the opinion that if you don't like cropped/docked breeds, don't own one, or find a breeder who agrees with your opinion.  Chyna's breeder did not  believe in cropping, although she does dock because of tail injuries.  Her contract states that her dogs are not to be cropped.  Even though I don't agree with her position, I respect her decision.

Bevo was not cropped when I got him, so I had him cropped.  I was working as a tech at the time, so I was present throughout the procedure.  I was with him through recovery, & I am the person who was responsible for posting his ears throughout the healing process.  I can honestly say that he was uncomfortable after the surgery.  He was annoyed with having his ears posted, but he never acted painful. 

I am sure that some people who do not support cropping/docking will argue that posting ears is cruel in itself.  I will nicely point out that other uncropped breeds are posted in order to get erect ears as well...GSD's & Collies come to mind.

I believe that cropping & docking shouldn't be banned any more than I believe that mandatory spay/neuters are the answer to pet overpopulation.  JMHO.

I personally don't like both cropping and docking for cosmetics because both procedures severly limit dog-dog communication.  You lose a huge range of body language cues when you cut off tails and ear flaps and that can result in a dog consistently getting into trouble with others because the other dogs don't see the appropriate cues.

I have a student right now who is docking her rescued aussie's tail at 6 mo - I think it's rather superficial and selfish of her.  At three days they are less likely to find it traumatic than at 6mo at least...

And of course the crop/dock issue always brings up dewclaw removal in my mind.  I'm against the cosmetic removal of dewclaws as well because I see how much my girls use theirs. 

Of course theirs are fully attached and functional - for breeds with vestigial dew claws removal is much more reasonable due to the risks of tearing/injury, just like tail docking in some dogs.

how do you KNOW the puppies immediately forget about the pain of tail amputation? they used to think infant circumcision, a similar procedure, was without impact and immediately forgotten; now they don't. They have demonstrated all sorts of adverse impact of this early painful trauma on behavior and the development of the nervous system.

If you want tailless dogs whose ears stand up, well, breed them so they come that way naturally. It's the only humane way.

Most of the dobes, all of the boxers, and an increasing number of danes around here remain un-cropped. Once you get used to the natural look cropped dogs look weird.  

I am the owner of a docked breed (Rottie). I prefer the look of a docked tail, I love Timmy's "nub" its cute. My breeder did it when he was born. He felt basically no pain. There was some questions originally if she was going to dock his litter (she was thinking of showing in Europe), so we just told her we didn't care either way, whatever she decided.

 Personally, I don't like the look of cropped ears, I prefer them floppy.

Either way, docking or cropping, I don't agree with doing it as an adult dog for cosmetic reasons. Why not leave well enough alone.

As for the statement, that is not a stance that should be taken by that organization. I think once that they start taking a stance on that, what comes next? It should be up to the breeder to decide.

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

According to an e-mail I got (not stating that this must be correct, but if the stats are even close to real, then I think it's important to consider)

"Since docking was banned in Sweden in 1989, there has been a massive increase in tail injuries amongst previously docked breeds. Within the 50 undocked Pointer litters registered in that year with the Swedish Kennel Club, 38% of dogs suffered tail injury before they were 18 months old and in 1991, the number of individuals with tail injures had increased to 51% of the group."

UGH!!!!!!!  I'm so unhappy about this!! I think changing the breed standards so it's not mandatory isn't a bad idea.  Since it would open the gates to the Aussie and European dogs that cannot be docked.  That's fabulous.  But, I fear if the breed clubs did that we'd have a ban of docking/cropping on our hands shortly thereafter.

I think PPA's email proves the point.  Some dogs were cropped on purpose, when you see a pointer out hunting, their tail is constantly wagging (until the point.. which is exactly 2 mins out of the 2 hrs you were hunting...) the amount of injuries are gonna be astounding.  To top that breeds have not been looking at tails for, sometimes, hundreds of years so you gonna have a ton of odd looking tails coming out on beautiful dogs.  And what about the standards, you now have to set the standard for something you've never needed to think about? 

I'm so very, very against this.

Given the choice,I would always prefer to have a dog that has never been put through any docking,cropping or dew claw removal.

Tena

misstrouble

Eh.

I like Rotties, Aussies, Dobies and a few others without the tail. I just think it makes them the breed they are. Pointless? Yea. Clean, sharp, great looking on the right dog? Yep.

I like **some** Pitties, and Dobies with croped ears too. Along with Min Pins and Danes. It just looks good on some dogs, and some dogs it does not.

I think it's a personal choice of the breeder or owner.

And, I completely disagree with Vet's doing a fighters crop of the ears of ANY breed.

You pretty much summed up my whole feelings towards the issue. Done properly and at a early enough age it does not hurt the dog. Thats like telling mothers they cant circumsize their newborns becuase some otehr people might have a problem with it, LOL.

Not to mention when you make it illegal all it is going to do it promote illegal cropping and docking and raise the risk of injury and foul practice.

We're about the only "civilized" country that *allows* it -- I think it's heinous to be honest, and simply dismissing something as "ok because they're little" -- is just wrong.  We (some of us) pay thousands of dollars to alter our own looks for some artificial standard -- could we look at the conformation, the behavior, the abilities of the animal (and person) and get beyond something that is carved up simply to appease what we are USED to seeing?

Muffin the Intrepid had a docked tail as does Billy.  Muffin's was done badly - it ALWAYS hurt him and used to break open.  It gave him nothing to 'wag' and caused him pain his entire life (we got him as a dumped rescue at 18 months so I've no idea what/how/who did it).

Billy's is at least properly docked so he has something to wag. 

The article talks about purely cosmetic things -- it's not about docking done for safety. 

Breed standards shouldn't be about mere vanity or what looks "cool" or good.  It should be about the benefit of THAT dog, not any idea of what looks good today.

 If you want a real shock, go get a breed book from 25 to 50 years ago and just SEE how things have "changed" just pandering to popular demand.  *sigh*