UK BBC "Pedigree Dogs Exposed"

    • Gold Top Dog

     So where does my chosen breed fit in, DumDog?  A breed that exists in the same form that it has for two thousand years, a breed that has a job and breeders dedicated to making sure that even the show dogs can work, and a breed that, although giant, can live up to the age of 22?  No joke, there's an Italian maremma who is.

    Do they deserve NOT to be bred...despite being healthy, workable, intelligent, preserved because they are primitive and wonderful....do they not deserve to be bred because they too, at some point, were a mix of things?  Or is there a "critical mass" amount of time...where a breed that's 200 years old is a "historical designer breed", but one that's 2000 years old is fine?

    Not getting on your case, these are genuine questions.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    rwbeagles

    Drive makes up for a lot of structural faults, Quincy.

    OK I'll remember all of what you said when I go to yet another thousand more working/performance events, and where I see things happening in actual practice over many years. Have you and your dogs been involved in working/performance events, maybe one day I might say hello in person.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     Have y'all seen the KC's statement on the program?

     

    http://www.dognews.com/2008/81508/irving.html

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pwca

    Have y'all seen the KC's statement on the program?

    http://www.dognews.com/2008/81508/irving.html 

    I read that KC statement well before the documentary went to air. I wouldn't be surprised if The Kennel Club has talked to their legal representatives, and that the BBC likewise has talked to their legal representatives even well before the airing of that documentary.

    By the way, before "the storm" hit in the UK, there were several indications from several sources that "a storm" was coming including from the following and from this link:-

    http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/newsandeventspggrp/imperialcollege/newssummary/news_15-8-2008-12-22-2?newsid=42674

     

    Imperial College London

    Friday 15 August 2008

    Extent of inbreeding in pedigree dogs revealed in new study Study explores inbreeding, which puts dogs at risk of birth defects and genetically inherited health problems - News By Laura Gallagher

     

    The extent of inbreeding in purebred dogs and how this reduces their genetic variation is revealed in a new study by Imperial College London researchers. Inbreeding puts dogs at risk of birth defects and genetically inherited health problems.

     

    These issues and the researchers' findings are highlighted in an upcoming TV programme entitled "Pedigree dogs exposed," which will air on BBC One on Tuesday 19 August 2008 at 21.00 BST.

     

    Particular dog breeds are believed to be prone to particular health problems and birth defects. For example, Dalmatian dogs are predisposed to deafness, many Boxer dogs have problems with heart disease, and disproportionate numbers of German Shepherd dogs have an abnormal development of the hip joints known as hip dysplasia.

     

    Inbreeding in pedigree dogs arises because certain dogs, prized for exhibiting the characteristics desirable for that breed, are used to father many litters of puppies. When dogs from these litters come to be mated, some will be paired with dogs having the same father from other litters. Over generations, more and more dogs across a particular pedigree are related to one another and the chances of relatives mating increase.

     

    Recessive genetic variants only have adverse health effects such as deafness when an individual carries two defective copies of the gene. If a popular sire carries just one defective copy, he will not show the problem himself and nor will his puppies. However, the defect may become common in later generations if his grandpuppies and great grandpuppies are mated with each other, rather than introducing new genetic traits by breeding outside their relatives.

     

    Although the problems associated with inbreeding have been known for many years, prior to the new study it had not been systematically measured. For this study, researchers from Imperial used mathematical modelling to analyse how dogs were related to one another within ten different dog breeds including the Boxer and Rough Collie.

     

    They looked at the parentage of eight generations of dogs, using records collected from 1970 to the present day by the UK Kennel Club.

     

    The researchers' analysis showed that, for example, Boxer dogs were so closely related to one another and had such little genetic variation between them that genetically, 20,000 dogs looked like a population of about 70. In the Rough Collie breed, 12,000 dogs looked in genetic terms like a population of about 50.

     

    Such small effective population sizes mean that the chances of a dog breeding with a close relative, resulting in birth defects and genetically inherited health problems, are high. The researchers argue that those involved in breeding dogs should encourage breeding from a larger pool of potential mates in order to create greater genetic variation and lessen dogs' chances of inheriting genetic disorders. They suggest measures such as limiting how many times a popular dog can father litters; encouraging mating across national and continental boundaries; and relaxing breed rules to permit breeding outside the pedigree.

     

    Professor David Balding, the corresponding author of the research from the Division of Epidemiology, Public Health and Primary Care at Imperial College London, said: "The idea that inbreeding causes health problems in particular dog breeds is not a new one, but we believe ours is the first scientific study to explore this issue and analyse the extent of inbreeding in a systematic way, across many breeds. We hope that following our work, dog breeders will make it a high priority to increase the genetic diversity within different breeds. Otherwise, we will see growing numbers of dogs born with serious genetically inherited health problems."

     

    The researchers carried out their analysis as part of an effort to explore how understanding disease in dogs can help inform research into human disease. The research was funded by the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council.

     

    Further information about the research is provided in the study, which is published in the journal Genetics:

     

    "Population structure and inbreeding from pedigree analysis of purebred dogs," Genetics, 179(1): 593–601, 2008. doi:10.1534/genetics.107.084954 Calboli FC , Sampson J, Fretwell N, Balding DJ

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    • Gold Top Dog

    Benedict

    can live up to the age of 22?  No joke, there's an Italian maremma who is.

    No joke, there has been a number of humans who have lived for over 100 years, but maybe they might be an exception rather than what generally applies to humans, maybe the age 22 Maremma Sheepdog might be an exception rather than what generally applies to them. It may make some wonder why some large breeds live generally considerably less than age 22, particularly when they appear to come from common ancestors heaps of years ago.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Quincy
    22 Maremma Sheepdog might be an exception rather than what generally applies to them

      True, it is an exception.  15-17 is average for them, still not bad for a 100+ lb dog from where I'm sitting. And that's proof that breeding can be done right...can also be taken as proof that breeding can be done wrong, by comparison....but there are 2 sides to every story, I guess.  I see no reason to defend the side I'm on, my choices are my own.  Your mileage may vary. 


    • Gold Top Dog

    Benedict

    True, it is an exception.  15-17 is average for them, still not bad for a 100+ lb dog from where I'm sitting. And that's proof that breeding can be done right...can also be taken as proof that breeding can be done wrong, by comparison....but there are 2 sides to every story, I guess.  I see no reason to defend the side I'm on, my choices are my own.  Your mileage may vary.

    Well some may wonder what might be the reasons why some 100+ lb breeds may generally live somewhat less than 15-17 years, even generally less than 10 years.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Benedict

     So where does my chosen breed fit in, DumDog?  A breed that exists in the same form that it has for two thousand years, a breed that has a job and breeders dedicated to making sure that even the show dogs can work, and a breed that, although giant, can live up to the age of 22?  No joke, there's an Italian maremma who is.

    Do they deserve NOT to be bred...despite being healthy, workable, intelligent, preserved because they are primitive and wonderful....do they not deserve to be bred because they too, at some point, were a mix of things?  Or is there a "critical mass" amount of time...where a breed that's 200 years old is a "historical designer breed", but one that's 2000 years old is fine?

    Not getting on your case, these are genuine questions.  

     

     

    ok .. what?

    as far as i know you own a labrador.... granted i havent been around this forum much in a while so i'm assuming you now have a Maremma?  OK thats NOT an AKC dog to start with(maybe it has recently been snared... or is on the list, God i hope not..)ETA i dont know its status in the UKC either.
    .. second the people who do breed those dogs tend to breed worker to worker... not show dog to show dog with random worker outcross.. and then line breeding the hell out of them. well maybe they are doing that now. i dont know. i used to know some Maremma breeders when i worked on a ranch years ago. they were acquaintances of friends and did NOT want to talk about their dogs to anyone.. the most they did was tell me the breed and they are like the GP.. i didnt see any live stock on the property except horses. the dogs were in kennels next to another kennel full of jack russells. so there is all the personal experience i've had with them so far.. besides being warned not to go near them (didnt intend to. i was curious about them because i love dogs)

    did you read my entire post? i said there are breeders who dont participate in the cruel fashion displays and birth defects. i also said mostly sporting/working dog breeds are healthier than the nonsporting/toy breeds.

    my gripe is with the toy breeders and the ones who have MANGLED once great dogs. they claim they are preserving history but i seriously, seriously doubt that. sure it sounds good to say it. sounds noble if you havent got a clue about dogs, history and the health status there of...... but its morally wrong to keep breeding back to unsound animals.. to have a LIST of potential health defects, that if they dont outright kill the dog, will at least debilitate it for the rest of its life... preserving living history should mean working these dogs to keep them as fit as their ancestors and not accepting "Well seven years is the best we can do with... they're so big!"

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    DumDog
    as far as i know you own a labrador.... granted i havent been around this forum much in a while so i'm assuming you now have a Maremma? 

     

    Don't have one yet, am getting one.  Will likely eventually breed them.

    DumDog
    OK thats NOT an AKC dog to start with(maybe it has recently been snared... or is on the list, God i hope not..)ETA i dont know its status in the UKC either.

     

    No but they are recognised, AND SHOWN, in the KC here in the UK, which is what is being discussed here.  And just to make it clear, they are still a rare breed and they still have no health issues to speak of, they've been recognised since the 30's,  And the very, very few people who have bred or do breed them here do show their dogs and do breed for the entire package - working ability and confo. 

    DumDog
    my gripe is with the toy breeders and the ones who have MANGLED once great dogs.

    I understand that, but I raised the points I did because I don't think it's possible to dictate one set of "responsible breeding" rules for 1 group and another set of rules for a different group.  Responsible breeding is responsible breeding, period...what that means to you is up to you, just as it's up to me what it means to me. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    The full documentary of "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" has now been uploaded on Utube, as it's about an hour long that maybe why it was done in 6 parts, and here are the link addresses for each part

     

    Part 1

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1LyjlX4Mp8

     

    Part 2

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kcUbCvS0ZEM&watch_response

     

    Part 3

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpR5su-PQ0g&watch_response

     

    Part 4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDKwbWA5Tdg&watch_response

     

    Part 5

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szl30xomLXo&watch_response

     

    Part 6

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFJffepQY3Y&watch_response

    .

    • Gold Top Dog
    Why is your gripe with the toy breeders? Um... toy breeds are at very very different stages of their health testing and they are very varied as far as the extremeness of their build.
    • Gold Top Dog

    ok if you'd read what i posted SEVERAL times already you wouldnt be asking what my gripe is all about.

    however 

    I do agree that good responsible breeding should be practiced by all breeders.. obviously. though i dont believe it should be limited to such narrow gene pools. what is the problem without crossing if both parents check out health-problem free? too much work?



    When it suddenly involves fashion and what wins a ribbon those good breeding morals go out the window. The Springer Spaniel breeders are breeding dogs with less freckles because some freckeless dog won a ribbon.


    The hips on a shepherd, the giant chest and long legs on an Irish Setter (compare to the IRISH  (Field) Setter, two different dogs! and the distorted figure of the English bulldog. THOSE PEOPLE will have you believe all those skin folds are so the blood of the bull will channel off the face and away from the eyes!!! that particular breed has had so many wars amongst themselves over type/outcrossing/standards its almost amusing were the dogs not suffering so badly. the RSPCA should be concerned.


     

    • Gold Top Dog

    DumDog

    well the majority of you know how i feel about this... so i'll just say "ITS ABOUT TIME!"

    .. if you didnt or couldnt watch the show you probably saved yourself some tears of grief for the suffering these highly prized purebreds go through....

    i am an advocate for outcrossing RESPONSIBLY.. and i believe in the working dog... not the exclusively bred show dog. 

    Can you provide documentation that in the breeds that have both working and show lines that the working lines have less genetic issues than the show lines?  I looked for such documentation with labs but cannot find any..... 

    I'm not sure why people are always so intent on attacking the show world when it comes to breeding discussions.  IDK, maybe it's just easier because they're more high profile or something?

    From what I've seen in labs many of those breeding field dogs have issues of their own.  Field trials are not normal hunting situations, they are normal hunting situations on crack.  Therefore, the dogs created in breeding for these competitions often have temperaments that do not conform to what the Labrador temperament is supposed to be.  You have dogs so incredibly wired that they can never "turn off," dogs that are drivey to an unbalanced level etc.

    There was actually an article in Gun Dog about the split in the breed that actually mentioned the problems with the temperaments with the field dogs and how such temperament issues are being seen more frequently in the field lines and how they are not true to the breed nor suitable for the average hunter wanting a gun dog.

    IMHO, temperament is right up there with health--maybe even more important.  Jack's elbow dysplasia may mean that he will never do agility, requires some extra care in feeding and supplements, and need extra attention on the therapy side, BUT he is an awesome companion.  I can take him anywhere and he is well behaved.  He *loves* people and dogs and is extremely social.  I can take him to the dog park and he will respond to rude dogs by simply ignoring them and moving on.  Many dogs would need muzzles for a trip to the vet's after all the stuff he's been through but he *adores* the vet and the entire staff at the office.  He actually looks forward to his joint shots.  He has not been raised with children but I can take him to visit my friend with her obnoxious and noisy kids and timid-yet-sometimes-snarky boxer and he is a gentleman.

    Instead of screaming about the evil show breeders, those who love dogs--whether as pets, show partners, performance partners, or hunting buddies, need to look at the dog world as a whole.  As a lab lover, I want to see dogs that have an awesome temperament (by lab standards), have excellent health, can do what they are bred to do (even if that just means retrieving bumpers at the lake), and are as close to the standard as possible without sacrificing anything else.           

    • Gold Top Dog

    Quincy

    rwbeagles

    Drive makes up for a lot of structural faults, Quincy.

    OK I'll remember all of what you said when I go to yet another thousand more working/performance events, and where I see things happening in actual practice over many years.

     

    You think what Gina says is untrue?  Pretty much the entire horse racing industry counts on the fact that drive makes up for structural faults......

    I have a lab with elbow dysplasia, and maybe he's just weird, but I completely see this in him.. I'm convinced he actually has no idea anything is amiss with his body.  *I* am the one that limits what he can do--he would do the things he loves all day long regardless of his elbow.  Maybe this is not true of all dogs, but certain dogs have been bred (by performance breeders, BTW) to be less aware of pain so that they can work longer in less favorable conditions. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     This is what drove me nuts when we had the Docking Debate.... snipping off a dogs tail is NOTHING next to the deformities that are being bred into some breeds, in the name of "breeding for type". YUK!  THAT is mutilation.

    Sorry, I don't mean to go OT or spark a dialogue on docking... but if they WANTED to ban it they ought to have tackled this issue first IMO.