Oprah on Puppymills

timsdat

Why weren't these people reported long before now.  If they are in violation of the law you would thing that a animal welfare person that knew about it would have reported these people to the authorities long before this.

I think sometimes these places are protected by corrupt officials. I mean, what governor really wants to say that their state has puppy mills, especially the ones shown? And their inspectors failed to site them? What official wants to admit wrong doing? None. Now these places were explosed so it's impossible to ignore.

timsdat

kelliope

I'm sorry - what is wrong with that?  Is there anything incorrect in the statement?  They are simply stating it's a difference in beliefs.  They aren't calling names, aren't being anything other than apparently factual.

The implication is that they are wrong.  Let me ask you.  Do you believe that the way the Amish treat their animals is wrong?  That they should be forced to stop using animals (in general) in the way that they do?

I believe that our country needs to have certain animal welfare regulations in place.  I believe our country needs to protect animals from abuse.  If someone breaks those laws then action needs to be taken.  Same thing for industrialized farming.  Same thing for child welfare.   There is legislation in place to protect the greater good and some of that legislation may go against the beliefs of some. 

BlackLabbie

I think sometimes these places are protected by corrupt officials.

Here is a article from 2006. 

Rendell Taking Steps To Combat Pa. Puppy Mills

HARRISBURG, Pa. (AP) ― Gov. Ed Rendell on Tuesday tapped a longtime state prosecutor to oversee enforcement of a law intended to combat the "puppy mills" that have earned Pennsylvania notoriety among animal lovers.

Rendell also announced several broad legislative and regulatory changes designed to strengthen the law, such as making criminal penalties tougher, allowing dog wardens to seize distressed animals, and requiring dogs housed in kennels to be exercised for 20 minutes a day.

Jessie Smith, a 20-year veteran of the state attorney general's office and president of the Humane Society of the Harrisburg Area, was named special deputy secretary for dog law enforcement in the Department of Agriculture. Her salary is $125,000.

"We are taking strong steps to protect consumers, reputable breeders and kennels, and the defenseless animals whose health and welfare is at the heart of this important issue," Rendell said in a statement.

You aren't suggesting that Gov. Rendell's administration is corrupt are you?

And if the government were so corrupt I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the TV program.

Why weren't these people reported long before now.  If they are in violation of the law you would thing that a animal welfare person that knew about it would have reported these people to the authorities long before this.

There have been many violations and many people have been reported. I believe the regulations are far too lenient and those that are in place are not enforced well enough.

If I remember correctly, you were very against speuter laws, as were many others. You gave links which claimed more dogs were euthanized in areas with speuter laws, and others claiming it was bad for the health of dogs.

Are you now saying that puppy mills are good for the health of dogs? Or have you long held a belief that religious freedom should trump existing laws and prevent new ones?

kelliope

I believe that our country needs to have certain animal welfare regulations in place.

That's just it we already have all these laws.  The question to ask is if they are being broken so much why isn't the government taking action.

kelliope

Same thing for industrialized farming.

Great place for another thread on large scale farming?

timsdat

You aren't suggesting that Gov. Rendell's administration is corrupt are you?

And if the government were so corrupt I wonder why that wasn't mentioned in the TV program.

I don't know. I don't even know where you got that article and I don't know anything about Governor Rendell. But knowing today's politics I woudn't be surprised. Look at our own President.

They probably didn't get into corrupt officials because the show is only 1 hour long, it makes a good topic for another show, or they wanted to stay on topic with horribly run puppy mills.

Are you for the puppy mills? And if you are, why?

Stacita

Are you now saying that puppy mills are good for the health of dogs?

I have never advocated the breaking of any laws concerning the raising and care of animals.  In fact I advocate that the laws be followed and should apply to places that house dogs.  Now if someone is following the laws concerning their operations I don't think I should criticize then and demonize them.  Remember that there are those who call anyone who breeds a puppy mill, anyone that breeds commercially or makes a profit a evil person.  There are too many people out there the think that if a person isn't doing something there way then they are wrong and need to be forced to change.

Stacita

Or have you long held a belief that religious freedom should trump existing laws and prevent new ones?

Our country is founded on that belief of religous freedom.

timsdat

kelliope

I believe that our country needs to have certain animal welfare regulations in place.

That's just it we already have all these laws.  The question to ask is if they are being broken so much why isn't the government taking action.

kelliope

Same thing for industrialized farming.

Great place for another thread on large scale farming?

I believe that the laws need to be changed to incorporate puppy milling.  Sadly, people's greed will lead them to continue to find loopholes/ways around the law and therefore laws need to change to account for that.  And further, I wasn't trying to start another thread on large scale farming. 

You don't have to agree with me.  And I sure as hell don't have to agree with you.

Have you ever walked through a shelter and realized that two thirds of the dogs in that shelter will be dead in a week?

A person who gets dogs and drops them off at the shelter the next week is not in violation of the law. I feel just fine criticizing and demonizing them. A person who knowingly breeds dogs with serious health problems isn't breaking the law. I feel just fine criticizing and demonizing them.

As a civilization progresses, the laws need to progress too. Often moral outrage is the impetus for that change.

timsdat

Our country is founded on that belief of religous freedom.

 

There are several laws prohibiting certain religious practices in America. Female circumcision comes to mind.

kelliope

I believe that the laws need to be changed to incorporate puppy milling. 

Ok one more time.  There already are good laws in place.

http://cbs3.com/pets/Puppy.Mills.Pennsylvania.2.300490.html 

"The law itself is good," Bob Baker, the former chief inspector of the Humane Society of the United States who is now a consultant to the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, said Friday. "The problem is it's not being enforced."

Now I would like to know why Gov. Rendell wasn't called onto the carpet for his administrations lack of enforcing the law.  Could it have anything to do with politics?

You know something real interesting.  Someone talked about the dogs running on grass.  Well the current regulations forbid exercise areas that were grass.  The proposed change to regulations will allow it.

Resuce groups will be required to get licenses and will be regulated under the new regs and anyone that homes 26 or more dogs thruout the year for a rescue will also be required to get a kennel license.

BlackLabbie

How do you know the dogs had shelter???? Sorry HoundMusic but I'm starting to questions how you raise your dogs if you think the footage on Oprah was OK with little to no problems.

     Hmmm, because the kennel building was in plain sight in one shot, but when they zoomed in on the run, the commentator alleged that this was where the dog lived - no ... turn the camera to the side and show the building the outdoor run came out of. In the case of the lactating Lab bitch, she obviously had a litter of young pups she was so full with milk - but no pups in the run ... that's because they were in the kennel. There is no way that breeding dogs can be left out to the elements like that and still be alive. Now, I'm not condoining how overcrowded that particular kennel was, far from it. Yet it goes to show how misleading the piece was.
     As far as the embedded collar goes, obviously that was severe neglect. The muddy run - neglectful & unsanitary.
     What I don't like is two things. First, grouping substandard kennels in with all commercial breeders. Don't say 99% of pet store pups come from places like those shown, because they simply do not. They tracked down the worst breeder they could find and made a nice propoganda film. Now, do you honestly think if that entire kennel was truly horrendous, that these ARs wouldn't have reported it? Because neglect IS illegal. They started the segment by saying this wasn't illegal - wait - really? Neglect is not a criminal offense? I was under the impression that it was, and that one can and should have their dogs confiscated were they neglecting their animals. I can also tell you that most USDA licensed breeders (the ones who legally sell to pet stores) would not have those filthy muddy runs - there would be violatiosn coming out the wazoo!
     Second thing I did not like about the report was all the misinformation. It's wildly convincing if you have little to no knowledge of kennel mamagement. Like the above ground kennels. They are actually more sanitary, but the public views them as "rabbit hutches". Or the nonsense about the swollen mammaries, or the BS about how neutering a 6 month old large breed dog is really going to improve his lifelong health with no side effects whatsoever. If they wanted it to be balenced, why don't they mention how altering a bitch before the first heat can double her risk for osteosarcoma ... Or that yeah, a speutered dog won't get pyometra or testicular cancer, but there is nothing that will stop cancer from popping up in another area. Or what about spay incontinance? It was just propoganda.
     Now, I said the footage was misleading, not that the breeders were keeping their dogs in ideal conditions or that the dogs were neglected. I question whether all the footage was from the same kennel, b/c if it was, then they did have problems that should have been reported. No. I think they showed a substandard kennel plus used footage from other kennels, ones that were worse, atrocious in fact. I am not so naieve as to believe substandard breeding operations don't exist or that no breeder neglects their dogs. But I'll say it again. This was a propoganda film. It's intentions are to outlaw breeding. There is legislation in PA they want passed, so this was the best way for them to gain sympathy. Show the worst and group everyone else along with it, get the public's hackles raised when they hear the word breeder or kennel.
     As far as how I keep my own dogs ... ok, ok. I'll admit it. You can see for yourself how terribly maintained/neglected they are ...

There are laws in place, however, there simply aren't enough USDA inspectors to conduct thorough or frequent enough inspections.  Then, when they do find abuses and shut millers down, the millers move to new states and set up shop all over again, knowing full well it can be years before a USDA inspector shows up.  There typically aren't criminal penalties for the mistreatment/neglect of the dogs either, even IF the laws are in place.  The miller here in Virginia who had nearly 1000 dogs was left with about 200 and still operating!!!!  And places like All Creatures Great and Small (not a breeder, but a no kill shelter) were in flagrant violation of animal welfare laws year after year and the NC state vets office did nothing but fail their inspections.  Never seized a dog, never shut them down.  They're "negotiating" with them to shut down and leave the state.  Laws don't do any animal any good if the local authorities refuse to enforce them.

I personally feel oversight and regulation of commercial breeding operations needs to come out from under a government agency that oversees LIVESTOCK!!!  I don't like the idea of dog farming (something the Amish are doing ALOT).  Alot of the laws cover animals that are destined to be killed and turned into food, so the requirements are pretty minimal.  Additionally, something I didn't know until I had to do a report for a class, the AWA (Animal Welfare Act) doesn't cover dogs in pet stores.  Conditions for those animals are covered by local ordinances.

ETA: Somewhere in this labrynth http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/publications_and_reports.shtml is a way that you can search breeders and view inspection reports.  It's how I found that a papillion I chose at random at the previously mentioned pet store and got a clueless teen employee to show me the breeder paperwork that the broker had been cited continuously for accepting dogs from breeders w/o USDA licenses and also that the breeder of this papillion had been shut down in AR and moved to OH and continued breeding and put falsified USDA license numbers on his paperwork.  When I contacted the USDA, do you think they acted interested or concerned?  Nope.  I practically had to force the rep to take down this breeders current location.

timsdat

Our country is founded on that belief of religous freedom.

Steve, I have agreed with a lot of your posts on other threads, but you're grasping at straws here.  Amish-run puppy mills have nothing to do with their religious beliefs.  They are Christians like many other people in this country, including myself.  I don't recall anything in the Bible about it being okay to abuse animals..if you find one, please let me know and I will stand corrected.  This doesn't have anything to do with their religion.  The reference mentioned on the show to the people who thought it strange that dogs were kept in a house with people is utterly ridiculous and hypocritical to their choice of business.  They are raising puppies to sell as pets; what the heck do they think people are going to do with the puppies they buy???  Hook them up to a cart and have them plow a field?  Of course not!

And not all puppy millers are Amish, so what about the other millers, what are you going to say to defend them?  This is not part of some master conspiracy to persecute Amish people.  It is about ending the abuse of defenseless animals.  Period, end of story.

Oprah did a fine job, (her and her many colleagues). The show is needed to teach people that adore these poor pets in stores and haven't a notion about their origins.  More is needed to show about these terrible torture mills.

It is difficult to find anything on the web that shows ideal breeders. There is plenty of info to find on the horrifying number of bad puppy mills though. If anyone has info that would prove different, it should be presented to the public.  As it stands, we have seen quite a bit that is not contrived.  The film is worth a thousand words.