Oprah on Puppymills

    • Gold Top Dog

    HoundMusic
    "How sad that people follow like sheep and ask no questions."

    I think the point is that people ARE asking questions. After seeing a show like the one Oprah did, anyone who watched it is asking "how can this be happening?". This woman seems quite self-serving and interested in protecting HER rights and I guess there's no way to convince someone like her that there are other things to consider. If dogs never had to live like those in puppy mills portrayed and no dogs ever had to be put to sleep and tossed in a bag in a heap BUT she could never have the dog with papers she so requires, then all I can say is "I don't care".

    • Gold Top Dog

    cakana
    interested in protecting HER rights and I guess there's no way to convince someone like her that there are other things to consider.

    In a country that was founded on the principal of individual rights and freedoms we have now come to this.  A dog is more important that a persons rights.  I hate to see what will become of this country in the next 50 years.

     

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    HoundMusic
    (quoting Karen Strange)

    I am one of those people.

    I DO NOT WANT a dog from any of those sources.

    If I could no longer buy from a breeder, I WOULD NOT HAVE A DOG AT ALL.

    All I can say is to each their own, but this statement makes me think her name is appropriate.

    • Gold Top Dog

    kelliope

    HoundMusic
    (quoting Karen Strange)

    I am one of those people.

    I DO NOT WANT a dog from any of those sources.

    If I could no longer buy from a breeder, I WOULD NOT HAVE A DOG AT ALL.

    All I can say is to each their own, but this statement makes me think her name is appropriate.

    I feel exactly the same way as Karen.  You going to insult me too!

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    timsdat

    cakana
    interested in protecting HER rights and I guess there's no way to convince someone like her that there are other things to consider.

    In a country that was founded on the principal of individual rights and freedoms we have now come to this.  A dog is more important that a persons rights.  I hate to see what will become of this country in the next 50 years.

    Steve - I know you don't think that your right to have a pedigree dog is more important than protecting other dogs from abuse. It doesn't have to be an either/or choice. I've never said that I think there's anything wrong with responsible breeders breeding nor with people wanting to buy and own a dog from a reputable breeder. The show on Friday was NOT about either of those types of people. Why can't you or Houndmusic step back from defending what you must feel is a vulnerable position and just say that those scenes were heartbreaking? 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I am very much for individual rights being protected; that is the very strong Libertarian in me.  I agreed with a few of the statements in Ms. Strange's rant, however I also found her to be very narrow-minded.  She was not looking at the overall picture of what the episode was trying to accomplish, and that is, to educate the general public on what is going on with puppy mills and pet stores.  I might be wrong, but I don't remember a whole lot of talk in the episode about pushing any kind of legislation.  I believe they set the episode up very well, to inform the public of an issue and other issues related to it, and then left it up to us to make up our own individual minds as to how we will proceed from here.

    Whether she meant to or not, she did not come across to me as a dog lover, but a lover of certain dogs.  I fully support her choice to breed and buy from breeders, but she did not choose her words wisely in my opinion.  How can someone claim to be a dog lover and then spew such vitriolic statements about mixed breed dogs.  Are all dogs not dogs, purebred or not?  Had she been speaking of human animals, folks would have said her statements are bigoted.

    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm a little sick of the extremist statements that if someone wants to stop puppy mills, that they must be AR activists who want to see all dog breeding stopped.  I didn't drink any Kool-Aid, thanks, and I don't have a problem with people breeding dogs.  My own Dobe came from a backyard breeder who relinquished the dogs to rescue when they realized they were over their heads.  My next Dobe will come from a breeder or breed rescue.  I don't want to see breeding stopped.  I want to see ABUSE stopped. 

    The sickening conditions filmed would have had most pet owners arrested for animal abuse - why not those breeders?  Because the systems don't support that kind of control and people cannot define what should be monitored and what shouldn't.  I completely agree that it's a complicated subject with layers of definitions muddled in opinion.  But abuse/mistreatment was clear in parts of the film televised. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    timsdat

    kelliope

    HoundMusic
    (quoting Karen Strange)

    I am one of those people.

    I DO NOT WANT a dog from any of those sources.

    If I could no longer buy from a breeder, I WOULD NOT HAVE A DOG AT ALL.

    All I can say is to each their own, but this statement makes me think her name is appropriate.

    I feel exactly the same way as Karen.  You going to insult me too!

     

    I didn't insult her.  I meant it to be a play on words.  I think it's strange.  I'm sure plenty of people think things I do or say are strange too.  Like I said, to each his own.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I too think that this sounds like a very self serving, and perhaps, selfish individual.

    I happen to like purebreds also.  But, not so much that I'm willing to buy one whose parents suffer horribly, or a pup who leaves "home" at such a tender age.  If I can't buy from a reputable breeder or rescue, well, I'll have mixed breeds.  But give up dogs altogether because I can't have precisely what I want?  Ain't gonna happen.

    • Gold Top Dog

    denise m

    HoundMusic

    They need to get licensed & up to code or put out of business. Funny, but Oprah never showed the commercial breeder kennels who sell to pet stores that have immaculate runs, a heating/air conditioning system, hired kennel help, exercise yards, state of the art whelping areas, etc. I know breeders who sell to pet stores & their kennels, record keepinf put some of us hobby breeders to shame!
     

     

    Houndmusic, I have been searching for the last hour and I cannot find a commercial breeder like you are describing, although I don't doubt the exist. Please link us to or name the ones you know so we can have a look at what a well run a commercial breeder looks like.

    I may have missed it although I looked twice, but was there an answer to denise m's request?

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    denise m

    DPU

    Again, I have to say turn your concerns into helpful actions that will help the dogs on the edge. 

     

    I assume you are referring to dogs in shelters and rescues. I cannot tell you how much I value the work done by you and so many others who adopt and foster these dogs. I would only suggest this is a reactionary solution to the problem. If we are to see real change we need to focus on ways of preventing these dogs from ending up in shelters to begin with. Is this not the goal of shelter and rescue organizations, to have no dogs coming in. IMO there are two doors to every shelter. The entrance and the exit. If you only put the focus on the exit door (adoption, foster) then you are fighting a losing battle as valuable and noble as it is.

    This is not a reactionary solution at all.  There is killing, stop the killing by fostering or adopting.  Separate that apart from the debate.  Why does that part have to wait until there is the GRAND solution that every one agrees upon or a solution that is forced upon everyone. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU
    There is killing, stop the killing by fostering or adopting.  Separate that apart from the debate.  Why does that part have to wait until there is the GRAND solution that every one agrees upon or a solution that is forced upon everyone. 

    I agree completely and although I have 2 large dogs now (both rescues) and have enough issues managing some of their aggression issues (and am working to learn how "I" can do this better. One is 12+ and when we lose her, we will rescue another and when I retire in 4 years I plan to do what my heart dreams of doing and that is full-time rescue and/or fostering. I wish I could do more sooner, but in the meantime I'm planning and trying to learn all I can.

    • Gold Top Dog

    cakana
    Steve - I know you don't think that your right to have a pedigree dog is more important than protecting other dogs from abuse. It doesn't have to be an either/or choice. I've never said that I think there's anything wrong with responsible breeders breeding nor with people wanting to buy and own a dog from a reputable breeder. The show on Friday was NOT about either of those types of people. Why can't you or Houndmusic step back from defending what you must feel is a vulnerable position and just say that those scenes were heartbreaking? 

    Karen was talking about the entire movement in general.  There are laws concerning the proper treatment of dogs in kennels and if these were breaking the law why weren't the authorities called in.  You would think that a animal welfare origanization would do that. 

    Granted this show was not about responsible breeders but the movement in general is about all breeders.  We are defending the right of anyone to breed as long as they follow the law.   

    I'm suprised that no one has picked up on the obvious mis-statements made in the show.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    cakana

    Steve - I know you don't think that your right to have a pedigree dog is more important than protecting other dogs from abuse. It doesn't have to be an either/or choice. I've never said that I think there's anything wrong with responsible breeders breeding nor with people wanting to buy and own a dog from a reputable breeder. The show on Friday was NOT about either of those types of people. Why can't you or Houndmusic step back from defending what you must feel is a vulnerable position and just say that those scenes were heartbreaking? 

    I cannot believe there are a few people on here that can't say that. It really makes me think, if you're a dog lover shouldn't you love/care/feel for ALL dogs? Not just just the pure breds, not just the show dogs, not just your own dogs...all of them. I know I do. I don't want to see any dog in pain, like I saw on Oprah. I just don't understand why everyone doesn't want those horrible, filthy, nasty places shut down. I can't get over some of the posts and other threads on here after Oprah's show....makes me wonder what kind of forum I'm on. I thought everyone on here wanted better for all dogs. Maybe I'm wrong??

    • Gold Top Dog

    cakana

    I think the point is that people ARE asking questions. After seeing a show like the one Oprah did, anyone who watched it is asking "how can this be happening?". This woman seems quite self-serving and interested in protecting HER rights and I guess there's no way to convince someone like her that there are other things to consider. If dogs never had to live like those in puppy mills portrayed and no dogs ever had to be put to sleep and tossed in a bag in a heap BUT she could never have the dog with papers she so requires, then all I can say is "I don't care".




         The point is that the footage shown on Oprah was vastly misleading. These are not the types of operations that all pet store dogs are coming from, quite the opposite - they were showing unlicensed breeders who are only a small fraction of commercial breeders. No one who saw the program questioned the *credability* of the HSUS people or their footage. It was said on the show, after showing footage of a lactating Lab bitch, who very obviously had a litter of puppers waiting inside the kennel building (that was not shown, btw - purposely so that people would be led to believe the above ground runs were the dogs only housing area), that her "swollen" mammaries were a sign of overbreeding & neglect. In what world would that even be remotely the truth? These people are conniving, manipulative, and play on our heartstrings to get what they want. No one wants to encourage animal abuse/neglect in any way, but these ARs take advantage of the public's lack of animal husbandry knowledge and run with it. Truth is, they don't know too much about husbandry themselves ... I don't understand why people seeing those dogs in runs (yes, they certainly were overcrowded in most instances) do not understand that these above ground runs (which are more sanitary than concrete runs, btw) are NOT NOT NOT the dog's only source of shelter. The dogs are not housed in these runs 24/7! If their cameras had flicked over to the right the viewer would have seen the kennel building the outdoor runs were attached to. And to successfully house dogs, you can bet your @$$ those buildings were heated/air conditioned. It does not behoove a breedeer to let their dogs freeze - dead dogs = no $. Common sense.

         The footage was so twisted it sickens me. Not to say there may not have been neglect going on in certain instances - I don't know nor would I house my dogs like that, but most of the dogs were fat, boisterous, happy. If there was true neglect going on, do you honestly think these fanatics would not have called AC on them for even the slightest violation? Come on. Selective footage was shown to make things appear worse than they were! This is not about not caring for animals.  I'm sorry if that's what you've honestly taken from this discussion. If that's what you believe, you're wrong. No one debating the "other side", myself included, is cold hearted to suffering or neglected animals. However, the problem is that the few bad apples are exploited. These ARs on Oprah were attempting to push anti breeder legislation that has been introduced in PA, which is why no other state was mentioned by name. As I said, they are manipulative snakes in the grass ... you don't even know you've been bitten by them until you're half dead. I agree with Karen Strange in that this is often quite politically motivated. These people do tend to have socialist views, they are so far left they'd fall off the face of the earth if it was flat Indifferent They are pushing their secular progressive views, and yes, I'm going to say it, even though it's not going to sit well. The AR movement is another stab at traditional religious beliefs such as Judiasm & Christianity where we believe our animals must be well treated but we have been given the divine right to use animals for our benefit. This does explain why jerks such as Wayne Pacille are opposed to breeding, zoos, raising animals for meat, even owning companion animals, when he admits himself he is not what John Q Public would call an animal lover. In fact, he doesn't really even like animals. Political. Political. Political. They don't care who they put out of business. They don't care that for many, raising animals (not just for breeding, but for meat, wool, etc) is their only way to make a living. Perhaps they'd rather the commercial breeders just go on welfare instead of WORKING for a living ... When it comes down to that, I will always remain firm in that your breeding dogs must be well cared for - that goes for mentally as well as taking care of the physical needs - however when it comes down to who is more important, those breeders have the right to breed for a living, just as hobby and show breeders have the right to show and breed their dogs. And if the show breeders think that the ARs will leave them alone if all commercial breeders are wiped out ... ROFL! They are not stupid. They are patient. They will wait until anti breeder sentiment is at it's highest then do to us what they've done to the commercial breeders. Portray us as propogating genetic diseases, etc. They will turn on us so fast we'll never see it coming. In fact, they already are repulsed by responsible breeders, just by the simple fact we breed pups ...