Iditarod 2007 Update

    • Gold Top Dog
    I don't think it's possible to bring up the Iditarod without emotions.
     
    I've never been, so I can't say firsthand. Jeano has. So, I'm likely to set a lot by her knowledge. My stepdaughter's husband's sister lives in Alaska and she would pretty much say the same thing as Jeano. Even the elitists at sled dog central would rather go a night without sleep in order to care for their dogs. It is among them that I picked up the notion that the dogs eat and are cared for before the musher eats. We don't know the circumstances on why the team laid down. Perhaps, he had just dropped a team member and the rest were saddened by it. I've never seen one use the stick but it sounds like it tickles or itches, if anything, but is useless in my estimation and he certainly should be investigated for that.
     
    As for running in - 50 F, that is heaven to them. That is what these dogs have done for over 1,000 years of recorded history. Average winter temperature in northeastern Siberia is - 70 F with dips near - 100 F. Coming off a run, you can bury hands in the fur of a Sibe and nearly scald yourself.
     
    Granted, it's a race, and I worry about the vanity of man. But there is no reason to ban dog sledding or decry the Iditarod or Yukon Quest. Nor do all mushers beat their dogs. As for culling, that has long been a practice of the Inuit and something they do get in trouble about from the govt. I say punish the deed, not the breed.
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: jeano

    First of all, I know Ramy. I know how long he has been mushing and I KNOW he's not an abuser. I've seen his dog yard. I have stayed at his place, eaten with his family, and small wonder, he's my boyfriend's nephew. Ramy is a good guy.

    I also know that Fox News is AWFUL.

    Here is a much more balanced and NON-SENSATIONAL article about what actually happened.
    He didn't HURT ANY DOGS. He had tired dogs, he was extremely frustrated, and he took a piece of lathe (1.5" wide and .25" thick--a thin little flat board, basically) and whapped each dog once on the rump to try to get them to get up. Even the officials said that sled dogs with thick fur wouldn't feel it the way a person would. He wasn't beating the dogs, for heaven sakes.

    Nevertheless, it was wrong, and he feels TERRIBLE. But he didn't hurt them and the Iditarod officials even said so. They also said that Ramy, who has been mushing for years, has never, EVER been known to abuse any dog. I know that's true. He is not going to be censured for what was a one-time loss of temper. As for his dog Kate dying, there is no evidence (and believe me, they look very closely during the necropsy) that Ramy did anything wrong.

    [linkhttp://www.adn.com/iditarod/race_2007/features/story/8719515p-8621560c.html]http://www.adn.com/iditarod/race_2007/features/story/8719515p-8621560c.html[/link]


    My feeling is that being out in -50° and trying to run a race is an incredibly hard thing to do. I couldn't do it. I'm satisfied that the Iditarod officials are extremely conservative about dog care.

    These are not pet dogs, remember, they are extreme atheletes and every dog is valuable and loved!



     
    I would love to see whether you can manage to say what you did above with a straight face...nothing and I mean nothing raises my hackles than people who play with words. 
     
    How can you say that this sorry excuse of a human being that calls himself 'Ramy' "didn't hurt any dogs"???    The way you potrayed what has happened is as if expecting people to sympathise with this sadistic fool!!    Poor child, he was FRUSTRATED therefore he had every right, according to you, to whip his EXHAUSTED dogs to get them up and running again and what's more the poor baby now feels "terrible."  Man, you really do take the cake!!!  AND I really do need to add that you are not fooling everyone into believing that the "Iditarod officials are extremely conservative about dog care."   The whole scenario is fraught with corruption and that includes the officials, the vets, mushers...you name it.... and the mushers are money hungry grubs that do not give a damn about the number of dogs that never make it, they are raced and beaten all the way to their deaths. 
     
    When you said that these dogs are not pets but extreme athletes and that each dog is VALUABLE and loved....I would personally omit the "loved" bit because they are not "loved".  Yes they are valuable in lining the pockets of the mushers but loved?  comeon, pull the other one....anyone that truly loves animals would never and I mean EVER subject their beloved dogs to the IDITAROD....the dogs may very well be excited at the prospect of a race but then they don't know what they're running towards and that it could very well be their last race! 
     
    A short sprint is one thing but the IDITAROD is quite another and it would give me and I'm sure a fair few others immense pleasure if it were outlawed once and for all! 
    • Gold Top Dog
    Moderator warning...
    Zoretta... 
     
    Man, you really do take the cake!!!   I would love to see whether you can manage to say what you did above with a straight face...nothing and I mean nothing raises my hackles than people who play with words.

     
    Keep your posts respectful or wait until you are calm enough to do so. This thread is not a free for all.
     
    TO ALL....
    Further posts in this vein will result in this thread being closed..so think before you reply...and use PM if you need to.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Yikes....the boiling oil is a bit hot here for this old gal.....
    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog
    Here is a much more balanced and NON-SENSATIONAL article about what actually happened.

    Yes, I found that article, too, and posted it in my original thread which I should have linked here, sorry about that.
    But I get the sense that there is an anti-dog mushing question underlying the thread .

    For my question, that is not the case.  My only connection is that a company nearby previously supported the Iditarod and was pressured to drop their support because of PETA-types and their opposition to it.  (The general culture is disappointed that the political agenda of PETA would influence their sales, but, as I understand it, that was the case at the time, years ago.)  I know zero about the sport, which is why I asked here for opinions from folks who are objective.  And maybe I'm a jerk for saying this, but whenever PETA advocates start in w/what I perceive as rhetoric, I often find myself chosing an opposite opinion as a knee jerk reaction.
     
    So, from a general position, I was saying, "Please, someone, tell me this isn't at all like the PETA rep portrays it." and all the articles I found afterward pulled the same facts forward - that this is exceedingly rare for a sport centered around animal athletes.
    • Gold Top Dog
    OK, sorry if I misinterpreted, miranadobe.  I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.  But given some of the responses in this thread, I hope you can see why I was on guard! 
     
    I have to disagree with people saying mushers don't love their dogs like we do or only care about them as racing machines, not individuals.  I know it must seem like such a weird thing if you're not exposed to it, but living in Alaska you see a lot of mushers and sled dogs.  They are super ultra dog people.  Involvement in this sport comes from a love of dogs first and foremost.  Keep in mind that this is not a sport you can expect to profit from.  Most Iditarod mushers have their own kennels where they breed, raise and train sled dogs all year round.  They aren't likely to sell a lot of pups, either -- usually the puppies are kept and trained as the next generation of racers, or pups might be sold or traded with other mushers to get some different lines in the kennel.  But it's not a profitmaking enterprise.  As we all know, you can't really make much of a living responsibly breeding and raising dogs.  You can't make much money racing them, either.  There are high costs for equiptment, dog care, vet care, etc.  Even the iditarod winner's purse is not going to come close to keeping a kennel afloat.  Mushers do this because they love dogs and want to spend time raising, breeding, training, and working with them.
     
    This is a website from an Iditarod musher.  I don't know her personally or anything but I think the website is interesting.  She has pictures and profiles of a lot of her racing dogs, and there also is a section talking about dogs that are retired from racing.  They are NOT culled or left to die -- they are retired at the kennel or pet homes are found for them.   Take a look at this -- you can't tell me this woman does not love her dogs or think of them as lives that can't be replaced. . . .[linkhttp://www.aliyzirkle.com/dogpage.html]http://www.aliyzirkle.com/dogpage.html[/link]
     
    Also, I would encourage anyone concerned about dog care and veterinary issues to look at the wealth of information on the Iditarod site:  [linkhttp://www.iditarod.com/learn/vetcenter.html]http://www.iditarod.com/learn/vetcenter.html[/link]  There is a TON of very high-quality care provided for these athletes, and standards for dog care are very high. 
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Zorretta

    I would love to see whether you can manage to say what you did above with a straight face...nothing and I mean nothing raises my hackles than people who play with words.

    How can you say that this sorry excuse of a human being that calls himself 'Ramy' "didn't hurt any dogs"??? The way you potrayed what has happened is as if expecting people to sympathise with this sadistic fool!! Poor child, he was FRUSTRATED therefore he had every right, according to you, to whip his EXHAUSTED dogs to get them up and running again and what's more the poor baby now feels "terrible." Man, you really do take the cake!!! AND I really do need to add that you are not fooling everyone into believing that the "Iditarod officials are extremely conservative about dog care." The whole scenario is fraught with corruption and that includes the officials, the vets, mushers...you name it.... and the mushers are money hungry grubs that do not give a damn about the number of dogs that never make it, they are raced and beaten all the way to their deaths.

    When you said that these dogs are not pets but extreme athletes and that each dog is VALUABLE and loved....I would personally omit the "loved" bit because they are not "loved". Yes they are valuable in lining the pockets of the mushers but loved? comeon, pull the other one....anyone that truly loves animals would never and I mean EVER subject their beloved dogs to the IDITAROD....the dogs may very well be excited at the prospect of a race but then they don't know what they're running towards and that it could very well be their last race!

    A short sprint is one thing but the IDITAROD is quite another and it would give me and I'm sure a fair few others immense pleasure if it were outlawed once and for all!


    Excuse me, where do you live?

    I live in Fairbanks, and I'm not afraid to put that on my profile. You did not read my post. You reacted, quite ridiculously, I might say.

    I personally know Ramy. I went to Susan Butcher's memorial. I have met Aly Zirkle and many other mushers. I live with dog mushing EVERY SINGLE DAY. I have to stop on the road to let the teams drive by. Every single day the team behind me yodels and yaks it up when they are fed....often as I go about my day, mushers stop to ogle Sofia and tell me what a gorgeous girl she is.

    Last weekend I was playing music for the coffeeshop that was AT the finishline for the North American dog sled races. HELLO.

    I know what I am talking about.

    I seriously doubt you live in Alaska, or anywhere near any sled dogs. I strongly doubt you are acquainted with any mushers whatesover. I doubt you have ever seen a team in action and seen the JOY the dogs have in running through the countryside.

    Say what I said to your face? Sure. I doubt you'd have the guts to insult Ramy to his face, with his two little girls and his wife Cathy right there.

    Everyone here knows that I am an excellent judge of dog care. People here know who I am and how I care for my dog and how I care about other dogs.

    All I know about you is that you stoop to insulting someone, overreacting, and being quite rude. And that you apparently make things up, as well, as in your comment about the veterinary care of the Iditarod dogs. Every musher I know loves his dogs. Many have lost a race because he/she put the dog on the sled to keep from causing a slightly injured dog (strained muscle, etc.) more injury.

    I am glad that our even-minded i-doggers aren't falling for your false accusations.
    • Moderators
    • Gold Top Dog
    OK, sorry if I misinterpreted, miranadobe.

    hey - no worries from me - since you were on the mark that pieces of the thread were anti-dog mushing. (Jimminy crickets, eh?!)
     
    Not sorry to have opened the can of worms, because I really have learned something here.  There really was the info and answers I was curious about.
    • Silver
    ORIGINAL: jeano

    ORIGINAL: Zorretta

    I would love to see whether you can manage to say what you did above with a straight face...nothing and I mean nothing raises my hackles than people who play with words.

    How can you say that this sorry excuse of a human being that calls himself 'Ramy' "didn't hurt any dogs"??? The way you potrayed what has happened is as if expecting people to sympathise with this sadistic fool!! Poor child, he was FRUSTRATED therefore he had every right, according to you, to whip his EXHAUSTED dogs to get them up and running again and what's more the poor baby now feels "terrible." Man, you really do take the cake!!! AND I really do need to add that you are not fooling everyone into believing that the "Iditarod officials are extremely conservative about dog care." The whole scenario is fraught with corruption and that includes the officials, the vets, mushers...you name it.... and the mushers are money hungry grubs that do not give a damn about the number of dogs that never make it, they are raced and beaten all the way to their deaths.

    When you said that these dogs are not pets but extreme athletes and that each dog is VALUABLE and loved....I would personally omit the "loved" bit because they are not "loved". Yes they are valuable in lining the pockets of the mushers but loved? comeon, pull the other one....anyone that truly loves animals would never and I mean EVER subject their beloved dogs to the IDITAROD....the dogs may very well be excited at the prospect of a race but then they don't know what they're running towards and that it could very well be their last race!

    A short sprint is one thing but the IDITAROD is quite another and it would give me and I'm sure a fair few others immense pleasure if it were outlawed once and for all!


    Excuse me, where do you live?

    I live in Fairbanks, and I'm not afraid to put that on my profile. You did not read my post. You reacted, quite ridiculously, I might say.

    I personally know Ramy. I went to Susan Butcher's memorial. I have met Aly Zirkle and many other mushers. I live with dog mushing EVERY SINGLE DAY. I have to stop on the road to let the teams drive by. Every single day the team behind me yodels and yaks it up when they are fed....often as I go about my day, mushers stop to ogle Sofia and tell me what a gorgeous girl she is.

    Last weekend I was playing music for the coffeeshop that was AT the finishline for the North American dog sled races. HELLO.

    I know what I am talking about.

    I seriously doubt you live in Alaska, or anywhere near any sled dogs. I strongly doubt you are acquainted with any mushers whatesover. I doubt you have ever seen a team in action and seen the JOY the dogs have in running through the countryside.

    Say what I said to your face? Sure. I doubt you'd have the guts to insult Ramy to his face, with his two little girls and his wife Cathy right there.

    Everyone here knows that I am an excellent judge of dog care. People here know who I am and how I care for my dog and how I care about other dogs.

    All I know about you is that you stoop to insulting someone, overreacting, and being quite rude. And that you apparently make things up, as well, as in your comment about the veterinary care of the Iditarod dogs. Every musher I know loves his dogs. Many have lost a race because he/she put the dog on the sled to keep from causing a slightly injured dog (strained muscle, etc.) more injury.

    I am glad that our even-minded i-doggers aren't falling for your false accusations.

     
    Jeano, what I said was not intended to hurt your feelings or as a means to insult anyone.  I say it as it is as I don't see the point of beating around the bush.  I felt like you were insulting people's intelligence with your post about Ramy.  As I see it, no human on this earth that truly loves animals would beat them simply because they were too exhausted to run...and then go on to say that he felt awful about it...that's easily said after the event but how about showing consideration before subjecting those poor dogs to such treatment.   As for you calling me a liar...well you can call me anything you like but I am glad in the knowledge that I am not a liar and do not derive any pleasure in reporting untruths.  The comments I made about vets happen to be the truth; I went out with a vet that happened to be there when such a race was taking place and he was not impressed...and that is putting it mildly.  He witnessed with his own eyes dogs being examined by a vet and given the go-ahead to race when in fact that dog was in no shape to be raced.  Other people on this thread have also witness the facts to the truths behind the IDITAROD so are they all liars also? 
     
    As I said previously....people engaging in short sprints are doing it for the pure fun of the sport and I do respect them but when we are talking about the IDITAROD where the dogs are being raced for thousands of miles and where money is involved those very ;people are driven by money and lose all sense of decency. 
    I have heard facts from people that have witnessed the event with their own eyes as well as my vet friend.  
     
    Now, even if I had not had any witnesses to this macabre event, the mere fact that the dogs are raced for thousands of miles, which is unrealistic and cruel and where the winner is set to win a substantial amount of money is indicatory that there is more to it than just a love for the sport.  Sprinters love the sport and the thrill that they get from it but the IDITAROD is exhausting and frustrating for both musher and dogs, dogs dropping dead, so common sense prevails here and I have to ask myself why on earth would any normal person subject themselves to such stress....it obviously ceases to be fun so what other motive compels these people to do this?
     
    Oh and your comment that I would never give a piece of my mind to Ramy's face???    Trust me, what I say behind the monitor I would say to people's faces without blinking an eye....if I feel that they're doing the wrong thing nothing would give me greater pleasure than to be face to face with them and the fact that his wife and daughters are standing there beside him would not deter me one little bit.  He should be ashamed of what he did and no excuses are good enough to pardon what he did.
     
      
    • Gold Top Dog
    Zorretta,

    Jean named names when she talked about people, and I provided links to back up my statements. We both relied on personal experiences as well.

    I am wondering if you have any data or personal experiences to share. You are making very nasty (and, if they are untrue, likely actionable) allegations. As sources, you cite your friend "a vet that happened to be there"; "people that have witnessed the event"; and "[o]ther people on [sic] this thread." Those are not good sources. In fact, it sounds a lot like rumors and malicious gossip to me.

    Do you have any scientific or vetinerary papers to cite? Do you have any personal (not friend of a friend) experiences or exposure to sled dogs you could talk about? Any websites, even, you could point us to that would support your allegations of abuse, corruption, graft, and animal cruelty? (A link that wasn't written by PETA, please.)

    Your friend the unnamed vet, for example: It sounds like he was disturbed by what he saw. Is there a scientific paper discussing his findings? Did he contact any vetinerary governing boards with evidence of veterinary corruption, malfeasance, and negligence? File complaints? Did he write a letter to the editor describing his concerns with the quality of veterinary medicine being practiced in the race? Were there newspaper articles about his trip? I'd be interested in learning more about what he saw. Can you provide a link I can look at?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I was hopeing this topic would not get so heated, it's an interesting event and has so much history behind it.
     
    When I was in AK I met a dog sleder at a little restaurant between Seward and Anchorage and nothing about him seemed bizarre in anyway.  He really had compassion about his dogs and could not stop talking about them.  Knew each by name and could give a detailed description of each dog's personality, even knew each dog's b-day.  I really wish I got his name, was a few years back.
     
    If I had not met a sleder first hand I might make assumptions but it's so different once you actually see what it's all about.  To me it just seems like being out in the middle of nowhere people just form a bond with the dogs that is so incredible that they can#%92t help but have compassion for their dogs.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Gosh, this is a subject I actually have an interest in.  But this thread is the exact reason that I don't follow it much.
     
    I guess I'm more inclined to go with folks who have actually SEEN this stuff first hand than those who have second hand knowledge from someone they know, a friend of a friend, a second cousin to the sister in law......
     
    And, I'll repeat......we're getting a tiny bit close to personal attacks here.  On many fronts.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I have also been following this story.  I have a Daughter and a Granddaughter in Alaska.  This was in the Alaska paper this morning:
     
    A Golovin village grade-school teacher who observed Iditarod musher Ramy Brooks mistreat his dog team -- an episode that led to the veteran Healy musher's disqualification -- saw something more disturbing than what Brooks or Iditarod officials have reported.

    When Brooks' team refused to move, said 28-year-old Maude Paniptchuk, who teaches kindergarten through second grade at Golovin School, he kicked the dogs and hit them with his fist and a ski pole. He didn't merely spank them with a thin piece of lath used as a trail marker, as Iditarod officials said Sunday.
    And contrary to an earlier account reported by Brooks' business manager, it wasn't a tangle of students that caused the dogs to stop on a patch of ice on the outskirts of Golovin, a small village on the Iditarod Trail about 15 miles west of White Mountain -- the dogs appeared exhausted, she said.
    Besides herself and her 1-year-old son, there were only two small children and a grown man who observed the incident, she said. And she was not the one who initially filed a complaint about it, though she did describe what she saw to race marshal Mark Nordman when word of the incident spread.
    Reached in Nome on Monday night, Nordman acknowledged that he spoke with Paniptchuk, and he doesn't dispute her story.
    On her way home with her son one day last week, she saw Brooks pass through the village with his team, Paniptchuk said. Her little boy likes dogs, so she snowmachined out to the end of town to watch the musher leave. When she got there, Brooks' dogs had stopped on a patch of ice -- so she halted about 20 feet away, turned off her machine and watched.
    "I didn't want to get too close, because I didn't want to upset the dogs," she said. "I heard him swearing at his dogs, trying to get them to go. Then I saw him hit a couple. And I thought, 'OK, so he's scolding them, trying to encourage them to go.' And we kept watching ... we saw him go down the line and hit each of his dogs."
    She never saw Brooks hit the dogs with a piece of 1/4-inch by 1- 1/2-inch lath used as a trail stake -- as first Brooks' business manager, Greg Louden and later Nordman reported.
    "No, he used his hand," she said. "And then he kicked a couple, and he used his pole -- like a ski pole -- to hit them."
    At the beginning, she watched the scene alone, Paniptchuk said. But then two 8-year-old children, a boy and a girl, who followed her on foot to catch up with her, arrived and watched too.
    "They said, 'Auntie, why is he doing that?' I didn't feel right explaining the actions of someone else. I said, 'I don't know, maybe they just don't want to go.' "
    She continued to watch for about 15 or 20 minutes as Brooks continued without success to grab his leaders and try to pull them forward, Paniptchuk said. She wanted to leave sooner but her snowmachine wouldn't start and she had to wait for her brother to arrive to start it.
    In the meantime, she noticed that a man from the village, who was out cutting wood, was watching too from the other side of the dog team. It was David Amuktoolik Jr., she said.
    Amuktoolik (who doesn't have a telephone and couldn't be reached Monday to comment) was also upset by what he saw, she said.
    "He even hollered, he yelled, he said, 'They're not going to go if you treat them that way ... they're not going to go if you hit them.' "
    Later, the children told their parents what they saw, and one of them, Sherri Lewis, reported the incident to Iditarod officials.
    Reached by telephone Monday night, Lewis said everyone in Golovin loves the Iditarod, and it disturbed her to hear her daughter tell her what she saw.
    "She just said he was kicking the dogs, and dragging them, trying to get them to go, and hitting them with a stick," Lewis said.
    "Just hearing this from my 8-year-old daughter ... It's just a little disappointing. ... It sounded like they were tired. The conditions weren't good. We have a lot of glare ice."
    Efforts to contact Brooks or his business manager Monday night were not successful. However, Nordman acknowledged that the account conveyed to Iditarod officials by Brooks himself differs from the school teacher's.
    But even the musher's version was grave enough for the three race judges to rule that he should be disqualified on those grounds alone, Nordman said.
    "By no means am I disputing what Maude saw," he said. "This had to be dealt with and it had to be dealt with in a quick fashion."
    Right now, Nordman said, he's still trying to officiate the end of the Iditarod.
    "Once we get back to town, I'm sure there will be much more discussion on it."


    Daily News reporter
     
    • Silver
    Acesmom, as per requested here are some links reporting the facts on the IDITAROD none of which pertain to PETA.  I do believe that I am not the 1st to make such allegations and nor will I be the last and I feel that for you to say that my remarks are "actionable" to be a little over the top...is that a way to silence someone that has opposing views to yourself?  As I said earlier, I do NOT derive any pleasure in reporting untruths...I am simply an animal lover that wants to put an end to any type of animal suffering and the Iditarod is simply one of many forms of animal cruelty.  If I felt that animal cruelty did not pertain to the IDITAROD then I wouldn't be here discussing it....
     
     
    [linkhttp://www.helpsleddogs.org/]http://www.helpsleddogs.org/[/link]
     
    [linkhttp://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20040329/022938.html]http://lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20040329/022938.html[/link]
     
     
    [linkhttp://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1793746/posts]http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1793746/posts[/link]
     
     
     
    And to the poster that says that secondhand information is not accepted is implying that the people that I have known for decades and who have witnessed what has happened are liars...
     
    Irrespective of this I know that these individuals have integrity and have nothing to gain from lying; in actual fact they were all for the Iditarod until they learnt a few hard truths after seeing things with their own eyes.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Auburn,
                do you have the link to this story?
    This is completely different than what was reported by the Iditarod officials.