The nightmare that is HOA (Home Owner's Association)

    • Bronze

    The nightmare that is HOA (Home Owner's Association)

    Hello,

    I am wondering if anyone has experience dealing with the nightmare that is a HOA?

    I just purchased my first home (a condo) in a brand new development. The rules do not prohibit dogs from using the grass areas within the community.  However, there has been very vocal anti-dog sentiment rising up and demanding dogs be restricted from using the grass area.  Keep in mind the dogs are not otherwise destroying the grass areas... people just don't want them using it!  Anyway, the alternative is to take dogs across the street (neighbor is in "transition" so it's so-so) or within feet of an active railroad track where the light rail goes by daily.

    The president of the Board is all for restricting dogs from the area despite the safety issues with the alternatives. We could retain legal counsel but the cost would be crazy.

    If anyone has had experience dealing with this kind of situation I'd love to get some advice.  You can also email me at podiumpaws@gmail.com.

     Thank you!

    • Gold Top Dog

    We have a HOA and crappy dog hating neighbors here...We had a similar situation here about restricting dogs in common areas...if there were no rules about the field when you signed your contract, your dog was grandfathered in...which means, they legally can't restrict your use of the common space...if they try...lawsuit which will rule in your favor.  If they try to restrict your dog, go to freelegaladvice.com.  Good luck! You aren't fighting the good fight alone.Big Smile

    • Gold Top Dog

    Is there a reason?  They pretty much have to say what the argument is, and I'm betting it's folks who don't clean up after their dogs.  IF that's the case, they've got a pretty good point.

    • Bronze
    Honestly it's not that dog owners aren't cleaning up after their dogs. There is one small grass area that is becoming damaged... but as I continue to point out to the Board, et. all the damage isn't caused by dogs but the fact that KB placed the grass in a completely shaded area. The shrubs and trees are also dying in that area. But the dog haters and Board feel that is reason enough to 1) try and make dog owners pay for the grass to be replaced and 2) restrict dog owners from using the grass. The rules do not prohibit dog owners using the grass... I've already pointed this out to the president of the Board. I know we could sue but I want to avoid a costly lawsuit. I'm trying to rally the dog owners because the majority of them have no idea that the Board is about to restrict their use. They are very underhanded.
    • Gold Top Dog

    *sigh* I'm a legal secretary AND a good portion of our practice works with HOA's.  This is all going to be mandated by your state and local government (how much of which depends on the state you're in). 

    Your Covenants and Restrictions document will tell the tale of what they can and can't do -- it is also going to be a completely necessary document if you have to consult an attorney. 

    Don't just ask an attorney to "represent" you and DON'T let it get to the point of a lawsuit. 

    A few questions --

    1.  At this point do the homeowners actually have control of the HOA?  or is it still in the  hands of the developer? (big huge massive difference)

    2.  The best bet is for the dog owners to get involved in the Association.  You have to go to meetings (and your C & R will tell you how much notice they **have** to give for a meeting, etc. -- can it be posted on a board no one looks at, do they have to notify you by newsletter?) -- but some of you folks HAVE to get involved or the dog-haters WILL (they love negative stuff -- trust me -- you'll get a very few who can railroad something in like in a heartbeat)

    Unfortunately it can be the nastiest and worst who get involved -- people who have nothing better to do than watch out their window for what the neighbors are doing. 

    It's a thankless job at best -- but it's vital there be adequate representation at meetings or they WILL pass cockamaymie restrictions that will make life heck on the rest.

    3.  Are you prepared to learn what you NEED to learn to fight this? 

    In a lawsuit the association would have to sue individual homeowners for non-compliance.  OR owners would have to individually or collectively sue the Board  -- but for what?  Unfairness?  Nope -- that's not illegal.  You can't sue people for being jerks -- nor for being mean, or anything like that.  You can only sue someone for breaking the civil law.

    So what you MUST do is find out what the Association can and can *not* do.  And what has to be done to prevent unfair restrictions from being imposed.

    Honestly, the best thing to do is go thru the C&R yourself -- and mark the sections, to begin with, that have to do with the common areas, pet ownership, AND maintenance of the common areas (planting, grass, etc.) and also things like special assessments.

    Once you're relatively familiar with it - then contact an attorney ***familiar with HOA work***      Call your local bar association (the American Bar is to attorneys what the AMA is to doctors) -- typically it's county-based, but I'd bet your state has a website.  But call the County Bar Assn for your county (where you LIVE) and ask them who does HOA work -- particularly someone who doesn't SOLELY do HOA stuff.  Typically that would be someone who represents Associations and usually they won't touch working with individual homeowners (conflict).

    Call the attorneys office -- keep it short and don't try to explain *everything* to the poor receptionist.  Simply say you live in ABC HOA and you and several other homeowners have a potential problem with the HOA and you simply need some direction.  There is NO lawsuit, there is NO major time commitment.  You literally want to buy half an hour to an hour of the attorney's time.  PERIOD.  Either by phone or in person.  (If you **can** find those Covenants and Restrictions ONLINE in your county's public record so you can email it to the attorney so no one has to print out 100 pages and pay copy cost!!!!)

    Stress you don't want this to be a long term thing, you don't want to sue, you just need some pointed education as to how you individual homeowners can protect yourself.

    Depending on where you live, attorney's can work for $150 an hour to $500 an hour. 

    But doing this *NOW* rather than after this comes to a head will save everyone bazillion's of bucks. 

    4.  Can you organize yourself?

    Find a cheap 'expert' -- call your local community college and see if there is someone who is an expert in landscaping, horticulture, etc.  See if you can talk to them on the phone and ask questions.  Ultimately, you may want to see if they would do a notarized statement (a sworn statement -- usually it's called a "Jurat" and it needs to be given in FRONT of a notary public in your state) -- but literally at least one "expert opinion" that the damage to the grass is *not* caused by dogs, but rather by poor planning.

    BE CAREFUL -- no one wants to get caught on the bad side of the developer (who may wind up hiring them in the future).  But simply a statement that they've seen it, and in their opinion, the "damage" (be specific -- "the 10 foot wide strip between Point A and Point B on the diagram" -- or whatever is appropriate) isn't caused by urine burns from a dog, but rather is directly the result of poor drainage, improper light/shade, etc. 

    This will kill their argument.  But getting a NOTARIZED statement that is a sworn statement (you may have to barter for the expert's "time" -- typically experts get paid, and you are going to want this for free, so offer to walk the guy's dogs, or see if one of you homeowners has some "service" or job-related thing you can offer as a barter) -- this means that ULTIMATELY if they do try to take something to court, you don't have to subpoena the 'expert' (which someone would have to pay for) but rather, a sworn statement is admissible in the courts of law.

    Also, I'd get statements IN WRITING from homeowners as to how often they use that particular area, and willingness to use the other area voluntarily in an effort to cooperate.

    5.  Can you encourage dog owners to be self-policing. 

    I can almost promise you this is NOT about this particular area's damage.  This is people who dislike dogs, dislike their mess, and dislike their "noise" using a particular and convenient situation to further their point.  Typically they will go to unbelievable lengths to get their way. 

    6.  Can you do a general drive thru of the whole area under the HOA and collect data?  Also some online sleuthing may pay off BIG time.  Contact me and I can help you with this one.

    A.  In general, get an idea of how many homes are in foreclosure, or lots aren't built.  You want to know how financially "healthy" the HOA is (that's going to be their weak point)

    Right now HOA's are typically hurting.  Because people in foreclosure generally don't pay their dues.  There may be a HUGE number of folks not already in foreclosure who ARE behind on their dues.

    Depending on where you are, see if you can find the county property appraiser's website and you will likely be able to get a list of ALL the homeowners in the area covered by the HOA. 

    THEN ... go to the County Clerk of Court's website and find the recorded public record.  Likely you will be able to check EACH of those names of owners and see if there is a lien the Association has placed on each property (again, this is going to tell you how financially stable the Association is -- they'll lien someone who hasn't paid HOA dues -- they may not have gone all the way to foreclosing, but a lien prevents the property from being sold without some part, at least, of that lien being satisfied -- and again that completely depends on your state, local laws).  You may find interesting stuff - like Mr. Mouthy who is harassing you may himself have a lien placed on his property because he's behind n dues (even if he's an Association offical).

    Bottom line - it costs BIG money to file a lawsuit.  Even in small claims court (damage of this nature would likely be under $2000 or so and is probably not just county court but "small claims";) it can cost $250 to $500 JUST to file suit, plus the cost of the attorney who filed the lien and then filed the lawsuit. 

    A lot of HOAs will place liens and they may have an attorney send demand letters saying "you ow $__________ PAY NOW" -- but they may often be reluctant to foreclose simply because the Association itself doesn't WANT the house.  They just want the assessments paid.

    Same thing with nuisance lawsuits regarding covenants and restrictions -- they may send you a demand letter saying "pay $_____ for your share of the damage to the common area"  -- but that's really shakey and they may DEMAND compliance or monies to refurbish landscaping, but that doesn't mean they will go to great lengths to bring a lawsuit to it's conclusion. (even IF the Association actually foreclosed on someone over unpaid assessments or a C&R violation/restriction) -- the Association does NOT want your house.  Because then they'd have to pay taxes on it and likely could have a difficult time recouping ANY profit.

    But this is what I mean by finding out what you can do and what isn't sensible to do. 

    There may also be laws regarding the easement they have with the railroad -- there may be written cautions about how far away homeowners MUST stay from that track -- telling someone they GOTTA walk their dogs there may patently be illegal -- but it would be hard for you to ascertain that.  An attorney could find out.

    This is a HUGe deep topic.  Holler if i can help -- I am NOT an attorney and I have to be careful not to appear that way -- but I can give you some basic info if you get stuck.

    • Bronze
    Hi Callie, Thanks for those tips and advice. I should clarify that I have a law degree and I'm 100% sure that imposing a restriction on dog owners would be in violation of our right to full disclosure which is required by California. I made a point of reading the CC&Rs during the disclosure period because I didn't want any surprises. Who knew I'd still be surprised! The reason for my post is that I also know the expense of trying to file a lawsuit given that our HOA has deeper pockets. I'm really looking for strategies tried & tested that will allow us to head them off at the pass & avoid a lawsuit altogether. We could argue misrepresentation or even breach of contract but the cost associated with all that is more than anyone wants to bear! If all goes south I have my best friend who's an attorney on standby to represent us. I hope a strongly worded letter from him would cut them off. But retaining him would also require us to pay for his time for doing the necessary research. And I'm not willing to bet that the Board backs off because of the letter. We have some real extremists living here. At the moment only four dog owners (including myself) know what's really going on. I've started a message board and had biz cards printed to hand out to dog owners. So I'm rallying the troops as it were and trying to get dog owners up to speed and arm them with information. At this point no one has provided a concrete reason for wanting to restrict use. Like you said it's just people with too much time on their hands. Dog owners have been harassed... literally there is an elderly couple that yelled at little girls for taking their dog out. So some dog owners are already battle weary. My goal though is to provide them the info the Board refuses to provide. Which is the strong anti-dog sentiment and the fact that these complainers have the ear of the Board. *I like the idea of getting a signed and notarized letter from an actual expert to verify the cause of the damage to the grass area. What is really interesting is that the Board authorized the formation of a Landscape Committee because the builder made other crazy landscape choices, e.g. planting redwoods inches from homes, which provides us with much needed proof. *This is a brand new development so there are no units currently in foreclosure. *The management company is the one chosen by the builders but homeowners hold the majority of board positions. *I've thought of calling the transportation agency that owns the tracks to deem the area unsafe for that particular use but there are a few bigger dogs that do use that area without problems. But I think it's only a matter of time before a startled dog drags someone in front of a train. Thanks again for the ideas! Regards
    • Gold Top Dog

    I'm in Florida **and** I'm only a legal secretary (but have been doing this stuff for years) so I'm not the best resource, but I can only tell you what's been done here.

     Feel free to email me -- in fact, I'll give you my number if you want to chat on the phone and bounce things off me.  Everything differs SO much state to state.

     And, despite the newness -- don't assume there are no foreclosures.  It all depends on economics.  Here we have a startling number of developments with foreclosures before the property is finished (stuff was over-marketed to begin with). 

     I honestly think having the  area next to the rail deemed off-limits by the rail company is likely your best option -- that is just plain unsafe. 

    Trust me, I can match you for crazy HOA stories -- a friend of mine was on a board up in Wash, DC.  Small "starter-home" area mostly townhomes (3 story?) -- but somehow they wound up being sold to a lot of senior citizens (THREE STORYS?? NOT in **my** lifetime sheesh!!)

    This friend got pregnant and took some time "away" from the board because they were pretty demanding, and THAT made them mad and they started to harass *her*.

    One day she'd been out with the girls (two 40 pound terrier mixes) on a walk and just came in to the phone ringing.  No "hello" -- just "I SAW YOU --- *****YOU**** DIDN'T SCOOOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

    She said "err -- you mean just a few minutes ago?  I just walked in but neither of my dogs had a bowel movement -- sorry!"

    Nasty response "I SAW THEM --- THEY POOPED!!!!!"

    She asked the woman to meet her at the offending spot.  And she took both girls back out with her.  (This friend of mine has bags on her ALL the time!)

    The woman was nasty -- screaming that she "saw them" and Caron asked her to point out any offending piles and she would pick them up even if they were NOT her dogs.  "They both just peed -- neither one has a BM this time of day usually!"

    Then the woman started screeching "THEY DID NOT PEE -- NO LIFT LEG!!!!  POOP!!!!!"

    Caron said "Ahhh, I think I see the problem.  As you can see BOTH ARE FEMALE!!!  Female dogs squat to pee -- they don't lift their leg!!  So they ONLY peed -- when a dog poops it hunches over -- when a female pees they lean forward and squat.  A MALE DOG lifts it's leg usually, not a female.   Sorry -- you're wrong!"

    But yeah -- that's the type of mentality you deal with -- it's not other dog owners policing their own -- it's people who are not aware of what dogs do, and who often think dogs are simply unclean and should be swept from the face of the earth.

    • Bronze

    Hi Callie,

    Please take no offense to my earlier response. I meant no disrespect. I went, hated it and choose a non-legal profession anyway! So I applaud anyone who can work in that world.

    I suppose I've really just been totally naive. I mean I know not everyone is "dog" person but I didn't realize people could be so hateful towards dogs and their owners! Again first time home-buyer and all. What a wake-up call.

    And I'll check to see about the foreclosures. Right now I think the place is about 80% sold and 60% occupied. 

    I will definetly pursue the railroad safety issue. And if I can come up with anything else (hopefully) I would love to bounce it off of you!

    Thank you,

    Aisha Leach

    podiumpaws@gmail.com

    • Gold Top Dog

    We have a dog hater in our building who follows me out when I take Maggie outside to potty and WATCHES HER GO to make sure I pick up her poop...Maggie's a golden...you'd KNOW if she pooped and I left it.   Our building is very sharply divided between dog lovers and dog haters...no group of "I kinda guess they are ok"  people...its either "dogs are great" or "death to puppies".  Makes for a fun HOA meeting...that's for sure.

    • Gold Top Dog

    aishadl

    Please take no offense to my earlier response. I meant no disrespect. I went, hated it and choose a non-legal profession anyway! So I applaud anyone who can work in that world.

    No offense taken at all -- it's just so different state to state. 

    One of the things that HOAs do that just blows me away is this "I'm WATCHING YOU" thing.  It sets people against each other in a big way -- so much for being neighborly.

    There have been various discussions on here in the past months about people looking to buy and one thing several of us have cautioned is about HOAs and being VERY careful.  Because it can turn into a nightmare quickly.

    aishadl

    And I'll check to see about the foreclosures. Right now I think the place is about 80% sold and 60% occupied. 

    That can cause more pressure than many HOAs want to admit -- Because even tho they may be charging a HUGE assessment monthly, all it takes is for 3-4 people to not be paying and you've got problems covering bills.

    and if the Developer is still involved, that too can be a problem because they'll underwrite certain issues (especially to derail something like THEIR fault in picking bad landscaping -- they'd truly want to funnel the problem into unsuspecting dog owners that they think they can cow into a back corner).

    Holler any time.

    • Bronze

     

    OMG, I've been watched too! I just stare back at anyone that watches. 

    How do you have peace in your home with this kind of behavior? I suppose you have to really learn not to take it personally?!??!

    • Bronze

    I didn't realize the significance of the builder still being involved... but that makes sense. We have huge palm trees in planters in the main lobby, well one died and fell over. The Board didn't bother going back to the builder, it's just coming out of our well padded (so I've been told) landscape budget. Same goes for some redwoods and oaks that were planted inches next to homes. They are all going to be replaced by the HOA, not the owners.

    • Gold Top Dog
    aishadl
    I didn't realize people could be so hateful towards dogs and their owners!

    I've spent over 20 years in property management, started at age 16 and I can tell you that with HOA's, particularly condos, it's not even about whether the individual likes dogs or not.... they just have too much time on their hands and nothing better to do than spy on their neighbors and find something to *itch about. It's sad and pathetic. I really hope I never have to work with another HOA again - it has to be one of the most stressful environments to work and live in.

    I hope you find resolution to this issue without losing your sanity or killing someone in the process!! :)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Just had a friend who bought a townhouse, she has a little Yorkie that is 7 years old, she walked it a few times after they moved in.  She got a letter from HOA saying not to walk her dog in or near the townhouses and to use the dog park.  She was furious, she went to the police station and inquired about her rights as a dog owner they informed her that she could walk her dog.  They also informed the HOA of the same thing and she has not had a problem since.  She always picks up also.

    • Bronze
    Dear Auburn, Thanks for the tip. That's a great story. I actually had to call the police on the one crazy neighbor after she yelled at me and told me I didn't belong there and I was ruining the complex for everyone. Anyway, I showed the police officers the railroad tracks the haters view as an "alternative" and they agreed it wasn't safe. They went up and talked to the crazy lady. I actually caught her watching me tonight from behind a pillar. Luckily I've invested in a flip camcorder and I take it with me every time I go outside. I've also been boning up on California property law. Of course, this being California our reputation for tree-hugging liberals works in my favor. The state passed a law in 2001 that expressly forbids mobile home parks and common interest development from restricting pets and communities can't implement rules that make it unreasonable to own pets. While I feel more confident about the fact that the dog haters and Board won't win... it's all still daunting to deal with this! I just bought my first place and this is not what I was expecting at all!