Iditarod 2008 fatality update

dgriego

 It would be cruel to force a dog to run, one that did not want to run, just as it would be cruel to take a Pomeranian and put him out against a wild boar, but for a dog to do what he does best, what he was bred to do, and what he loves to do is not cruel, even if it results in loss of life or injury although the owners should do all that they can to prevent that injury or loss of life.

 I still say I do not know enough about sled dogs, but from what I have read they also have this intense drive, this desire to run and that is their purpose. As for changing the race, well that is for the sled dog people to discuss and decide since they are the ones that love the dogs the most, and I cannot help but think that any musher worth his salt is one that has a great love and respect for the dogs that pull him. If he doesnt then maybe he should be gotten rid of instead of the race.

 Another good post!

I cannot help but think that any musher worth his salt is one that has a great love and respect for the dogs that pull him. If he doesnt then maybe he should be gotten rid of instead of the race. (quoted from above)

 That just about says it all. I have watched many videos of this years race and I have to say that the dogs look in great shape and are pleased to be what they are doing, this opinion i have formed from official and amatuer videos floating around the web. Seeing the interaction between mushers and their dogs reveals a bond most pet owners would envy.

 Just to clarify a few points - there are three rest stops that have to be taken at checkpoints 2 eight hour stops and 1 twenty four hour stop, one of the eight hour stops is at a mandatory checkpoint the other two are taken at checkpoints of the mushers choice. A good long distance dog team will travel at about 9 - 10 mph. The reason for the much slower average speed is that mushers prefer to rest their dogs on the trail as there is much less interferance to disturb the dogs rest (no spectators, reporters, other teams etc.). Dogs that are dropped at checkpoints are done so not because they are exhausted, but because they are looking like they may get that way (there will be exceptions, but this is the norm) and they are carried in a basket on the sledge from the time the musher notices the dog is tireing until it reaches the checkpoint so it is not forced to run.

 Mushers that are found to abuse their dogs are banned from the event.

Then there is the thought that sled dogs are a link to the past. I love the wilderness, i love going places where there are no cars, where the grass isnt cut and where nature is the designer. This is where sled dogs run and it is a harsh environment. Take people or any kind of animal into this environment and there will be cuts, bruises and accidents. But that does not mean it is wrong. Take an animal whose purpose it is to work in this environment out and you will significantly damage his charector, happiness and will, and that is wrong. About a year ago I was walking my dogs in the woods and one of them cut himself in an accident badly enough for me to take him to the vet, he is o.k. now, but the point is should walking dogs in the woods be banned? Of course not. He is of working breed and he just doesnt like walking around in streets or parks, he needs to be where he can sniff rabbit droppings, where he can chase squirels into the trees, this is where he is happy, it is a part of him. Same thing with sled dogs, it is a part of them.

It is sad when a dog dies, and if it is due to the neglect of an individual that person should be held responsible. but that is no cause to condem all mushers.

It would be great to see an actual documentary on this race. It is a wonderful event. I do not see that anyone here really wants the race to be stopped. Just assurance that there are healthful rules that are exercised , if there are some things that could be improved- as with most every venture humans have- why not

good news, apparently there will be a documentary shown this fall on discovery, by the same people who did deadliest catch etc.

 As far as improvements - that must be considered by the pro's. by the mushers and specialist vets. I have no doubt that all the things discussed have been considered many times and some of which implemented in the past, but for one reason or another what seemed like a good idea turned out to be more of a negative.

 As for exersising rules - A quick search will reveal a list of names banned from the race. A read of the rules show they are all there to support the safety of the dog. It really is a well structured event.

snownose

AgileGSD

snownose

How very sad......would you say that was an isolated incident.....or deaths happen in your class every year?

 Where did I say the dog was in class when it happened? I was in agility class one time with a guy who had working Aussies he used on cattle and horses. The one he was doing agility with was killed by cattle trampling it. That was very sad. I imagine it happens every year but I'm not going to say dogs should never be used on cattle because it can be risky. Dogs are also killed every year in dog parks, which I wouldn't go to but wouldn't try to make illegal either.

Apologies........but, let's say you were involved in a sport were several dogs were killed and many others got injured, suffered and in pain.....would you be part of it and participate?

Personally I don't do dog sports, but anyone involved in pretty much any type of horse activities, even trail riding, is participating in an activity where animals have been injured or killed.  However, that does not mean that I would not participate in horse activities.  One of my horses is an off the track standardbred, and I got to see a bit of that world first hand.  Some owners are good to their horses, and some are not.  There are lots of horses with good owners who get injured--it can't always be helped....

sillysally

Personally I don't do dog sports, but anyone involved in pretty much any type of horse activities, even trail riding, is participating in an activity where animals have been injured or killed.  However, that does not mean that I would not participate in horse activities.  One of my horses is an off the track standardbred, and I got to see a bit of that world first hand.  Some owners are good to their horses, and some are not.  There are lots of horses with good owners who get injured--it can't always be helped....

So true.  I've seen many more people get seriously injured than horses in equine sports.  And most equine sports have very good governing organizations who easily adapt to the changing times.  I can't vouch for all of them, but most of them do, and they do it for the safety of the animal and human athletes.  BTW - I have been out of competitive eventing for so long, I didn't hear abou the A.T. incident at Rolex until reading about it in your post.  I did some googling, and my, how tragic.  I'm glad YouTube pulled the video.  I'm not sure I'd be able to stomach watching it.

The Grand National is a very old and famous steeplechase that is very demanding and dangerous to horses and riders. They have changed some of the fences so that it is not as bad as it was 20 years ago but it is still a hard race.

   Last year, three horses died as a result of the three-day Grand National meeting bringing the number of deaths from the event to 35 over the last 10 years.

 I was able to witness this race back in the early 80s and I have ridden horses all my life since the age of 3 or 4, I have jumped, barrel raced and galloped many a horse and I can tell you there is not enough money to get me to even ride that course by myself with the best jumper available and all the time in the world to complete it, let alone at breakneck speed in a herd of other horses.

 People protest this race every year but I do not think it should be banned. The race is 4 miles and 4 furlongs with 30 jumps in all (most are jumped twice) and is a grueling race for horse and rider.

The previous info I had, as clocked by mushers judging by trail markers, is that the average 14 to 16 dog team can pull a sled with a human and food (totalling 200 to 250 lbs) at about 16 to 20 mph for a couple of hours. That is, some would travel 40 miles and then rest. Unloaded, a Siberian Husky can run at a top speed of 35 to 40 mph and for quite some time. I know of a case where a guy's Sibe got out of the yard and took off for a friend's house, 30 miles away, after about an hour. That means the dog ran 30 mph for an hour, or may have run in spurts. Stopped to sniff something and the zoomed off, with an averaged time of 30 mph. Just to say hi, so to speak. Unlike other breeds, these dogs were bred to run fast and pull hard in the worst conditions. That doesn't mean that they won't get hurt or die. And I am all for taking care of the dog first and having the race changed to a memorial run to avoid the problems of competition. But I bet some dogs would still die on the trail. For one thing, with the competition time no longer important, it might be tempting to let an older dog still run when he or she might have ordinarily retired. But it is in the breed of Siberian Husky to run and run, and then run some more. The other breeds that have been introduced seem to have done well.

I admire the breed of Siberian Husky because of their striking beauty but also their heart and drive. I like them precisely because they like to run. But there are many races that don't get the press of the Iditarod. And some dogs probably get hurt in that, too.

At the vet, I once saw a Lab puppy with his tail wrapped up. They had let him into the back of the pick-up truck and closed the tailgate on his tail. That was risky, too.

dgriego

The Grand National is a very old and famous steeplechase that is very demanding and dangerous to horses and riders. They have changed some of the fences so that it is not as bad as it was 20 years ago but it is still a hard race.

   Last year, three horses died as a result of the three-day Grand National meeting bringing the number of deaths from the event to 35 over the last 10 years.

 .... is a grueling race for horse and rider.

Three horses died over three days... 35 over the last ten years?

Would such stats be tolerated if it were the riders who died? Aren't we the guardians of our "lesser" creatures? 

DrOgreys

dgriego

The Grand National is a very old and famous steeplechase that is very demanding and dangerous to horses and riders. They have changed some of the fences so that it is not as bad as it was 20 years ago but it is still a hard race.

   Last year, three horses died as a result of the three-day Grand National meeting bringing the number of deaths from the event to 35 over the last 10 years.

 .... is a grueling race for horse and rider.

Three horses died over three days... 35 over the last ten years?

Would such stats be tolerated if it were the riders who died?

Yep, probably. 

It is not very uncommon for riders to die while participating in a horse sport.  Actually, there was a girl who died not too long ago during a competition (eventing I believe) when her horse flipped over a fence and landed on her.  The horse was killed pretty much right away, and the rider died a short time later of severe trauma.

I came across an article that stated in the sport of eventing only, 7 riders have died worldwide, and 23 have died in the UK alone in the past 25 years.  

I found this quote in another article: 

"In Germany , one quarter of all lethal sports injuries are caused by horse riding.[4]  Analysis of sports associated mortality in England and Wales found that horse riding was the most hazardous activity with 98 deaths, followed by air sports (92 deaths), motor sports (86 deaths) and mountaineering (74 deaths): 19 of the horse riding deaths occurred in children.[5]"

In yet another article I found these stats: "In 10 States in the US there were over 200 DEATHS per year."
"Riding horses is 20 times more dangerous than riding a motorcycle based on the hours riding."

http://www.boston.com/travel/explorene/specials/ski/articles/2008/02/14/best_in_snow_sled_dogs_hitting_stride/

 This is a nice race.

sillysally

In yet another article I found these stats: "In 10 States in the US there were over 200 DEATHS per year."
"Riding horses is 20 times more dangerous than riding a motorcycle based on the hours riding."

I've ridden all my life too, and I can't help but wonder why people would expect horseback riding to be safe. I've heard that from tons of people over the years, oh it's not that bad... the horses are trained..."

Your seated on the back of a large, powerful animal. And, in the case of top level eventing, steeple chasing, and grand prix jumping you are flying over huge obstacles at speed. Not that it takes jumping or speed to get injured riding.

It's could be a Bill Engvall "here's your sign"... "If you think getting on the back of a 1,000 pounds of animal running at top speed is safe, here's your sign!"

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

Not that it takes jumping or speed to get injured riding.

Which echos my point about risk in everything. Actor Christopher Reeve was paralyzed in a simple riding accident going over a jump that wasn't that high. But I don't think that people should stop riding horses. Some horses get injured in racing but I don't think racing should be banned. As long as the animals are well-cared for and enjoy what they are doing, it can be good for all. And yes riders, or in the case of dog sled races, mushers should always be held to a good standard of stewardship.

The notion I got from when I belonged to a sled dog forum is that a musher sees to the dogs before he gets to eat, sometimes before he gets to even go to the restroom. That means vet attention, feeding, toilet duties, bedding, if necessary. And I have seen mushers that will play with their dogs at the rest stops as part of the camraderie. Then the musher finally gets to pee, eat, take a sponge bath and grab a few hours of sleep. Unless he has handlers, who are usually volunteer and unpaid and they will watch things for him while he sleeps. And then, they race ahead to the next checkpoint or rest stop and have the encampment set up and waiting. And this includes handling at least fifty pounds of food, any necessary hay or straw for pee and poop necessities, tie-outs, what-have-you, It's a major ordeal. And to be fair to vets, dogs are stoic. They could be tired or getting ill and it might be hard to tell at one checkpoint. And any musher that wants to continue racing will take sick dog off the gangline and drop him'her off at the next point, to either be returned to the start or taken to the finish, whatever is closer.

ron2

Pit_Pointer_Aussie

Not that it takes jumping or speed to get injured riding.

 

Which echos my point about risk in everything. Actor Christopher Reeve was paralyzed in a simple riding accident going over a jump that wasn't that high. But I don't think that people should stop riding horses. Some horses get injured in racing but I don't think racing should be banned. As long as the animals are well-cared for and enjoy what they are doing, it can be good for all. And yes riders, or in the case of dog sled races, mushers should always be held to a good standard of stewardship.

The notion I got from when I belonged to a sled dog forum is that a musher sees to the dogs before he gets to eat, sometimes before he gets to even go to the restroom. That means vet attention, feeding, toilet duties, bedding, if necessary. And I have seen mushers that will play with their dogs at the rest stops as part of the camraderie. Then the musher finally gets to pee, eat, take a sponge bath and grab a few hours of sleep. Unless he has handlers, who are usually volunteer and unpaid and they will watch things for him while he sleeps. And then, they race ahead to the next checkpoint or rest stop and have the encampment set up and waiting. And this includes handling at least fifty pounds of food, any necessary hay or straw for pee and poop necessities, tie-outs, what-have-you, It's a major ordeal. And to be fair to vets, dogs are stoic. They could be tired or getting ill and it might be hard to tell at one checkpoint. And any musher that wants to continue racing will take sick dog off the gangline and drop him'her off at the next point, to either be returned to the start or taken to the finish, whatever is closer.

That is a positive view of the race....there is an ugly side to it, also, one that the race world loves to claim is bogus and made up by AR groups.This forum offers an array of thoughtful dog owners, who do just about anything for their pets.....does that mean abuse doesn't exist?

And, after many pages of interesting discussion I still have the nagging question, why push these dogs to the point of injury and death if the race doesn't even come close to the way the original run was done.......

Animal abuse happens in any group where animals are kept - pet owners, greyhound racers, horse racers etc. The point is that abuse is always the fault of an individual. I cant see that it is fair to label sled dog owners for the fault of a minority. The vast majority of sled dog owners are extremly keen to do the best for their dogs, which includes running them as this is the purpose of the breed.

Looking at the race, the Iditarod does not claim to be the serum run, it claims to be a race. Part of the race follows the serum run route and the race enjoys keeping the memory of the serum run in peoples minds, and this it does well, the only reason I know of the serum run is because I heard of the race. There would be very little interest in recreating the serum run as there is no need for the serum and so there would be a succession of dog teams running short legs, shorter than they do each day anyways.

The serum run was designed to get the serum there as soon as possible, hence the short legs, the relay - all allowing the serum to keep moving at the fastest pace. This is not the design of the race, as previously mentioned there are three mandatory rest stops, there are vet checks, every musher is subject to rules designed to keep the dogs as the priority.