Dog Community

Pet Shop pups and Internet pups.

Posted : 4/7/2011 2:59:24 PM

Please do not buy puppies from pet shops. We've been trying to teach people this for years and the pet shops keep opening up new ones to sell yet another lot of puppy mill pups. One particular shop I've heard keeps 4 shops going, so that when they have sold as many puppies as they can in one town, they close up and move on to another town. That way they always have income coming in as they are moving about. We've got one going to be opening up in our town. Until people stop buying they will keep selling. We are starting to see the large organizations get some of these larger puppy mills shut down but now it seems another problem is cropping up, Internet puppy sales. The ones who sell to the pet stores, usually have to be on the up and up to a point anyway. I'm not saying in anyway that they are good. I'm just saying that since they are registered with someone, there is a possible way to go after them. No reputable breeder would sell their dogs through a pet shop. These others are not registering with anyone. They are selling pups over the internet at anywhere from $600 or $800 to $1200 or $2000. They are not registered pet dealers and they are probably not paying taxes to anyone either. They may not be even getting their breeding dogs licensed (a problem we are fighting now in our town). They use the free rabies clinics. I spoke to a girl that works them, who has told me that. The particular one we are fighting we know they have done that. Nobody wants to do anything about them because it is just too much work and the pay off is not enough to be bothered about. Even animal cruelty charges in another state won't stop them. The states don't want to bother to extradite them, because there again, it just isn't worth it to them. So they continue to operate. Some will never be bothered by anyone and those that are, will end up staying as long as they can possibly hold out and then when absolutely forced to move out, move to yet another town. So, instead of paying up and doing what they are supposed to do, they move on to another unsuspecting town. It is very, very discouraging. Letters have been written to just about everyone and no one wants to deal with it. It has to be proved first that they are selling more than a certain number of dogs, before they can even be inspected. Please, please stop supporting these people. Buy from a reputable breeder, if you must, or adopt. And be careful also of those that pretend they are adopting out dogs, when they are actually just getting income off of these animals for themselves. Their pups or dogs aren't spayed or neutered, don't have the shots or health checks that they should have etc. Many that bring dogs in from other states are doing this type of thing. Not all, but just be aware. Ask to have them prove they are a not for profit and/or ask for a veterinarian reference and call the veterinarian. That is a good idea in all cases, to check a veterinarian reference on people that are selling dogs. Please do your research and stop supporting these unscrupulous breeders. I'm sure many of the strays that are picked up and we take in, are from some of these breeders. They dump dogs when they are no longer going to be using them for breeding. It just seems to much of a coincidence, when we happen to get so many dogs that are so similar, and we do know of a certain unregistered breeder breeding dogs of this type. Please educate yourself and your friends about this. Thanks for reading and all of the pups that suffer will be thanking you too.

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/17/2011 6:57:14 AM

Thanks for the reminder about such an important issue. People need to educate themselves, if they want to buy a purebred puppy, what constitutes responsible breeding practices. Responsible breeders do NOT sell puppies to pet shops, and they don't sell pups to the highest bidder on the Internet either. They test parent dogs for genetic problems that run in the breed, they don't breed dogs too young, and they generally don't have more than a couple of litters per year, or breed more than two different breeds of dogs. They DO investigate the prospective buyer, and you shouldn't be offended by that. They want you to have a way to exercise the pup, a safe area for the pup to play, and a safe home environment. Often, that means that they won't sell you a Border Collie if you have three kids under the age of six, or a Boxer if you live with an 85 year old aunt who could easily be knocked down by even a young boisterous pup, and they won't sell you a pet except on a spay/neuter contract. They care more about the pup than they do about your Visa card. And, they don't tell you that they only breed for pet homes - GOOD breeders breed to improve their chosen breed and to produce pups that could do many different things for you in addition to just curling up at your feet in the evening.

BTW, you can check any groups non-profit status by going to your state's secretary of state or division of corporations web page. Also, The Foundation Center maintains a list of corporations that must file the Federal Form 990. Just Google it: "Foundation Center" & "Form 990" & (name of charity).

nymaureen

Posted : 4/22/2011 6:25:46 PM

An additional note. If you do have any pet shops near you that sell puppies, ask them to see the pups pedigree and tell them you are interested in knowing who the breeder is. See if they will give you any information when you are just shopping. We've one opened up just recently near us and they say they won't tell until you buy the dog. How's that for a big red flag? Please spread the word and keep spreading the word until there are no more puppy mills and pet shops selling puppies. Breeders who care will not sell their dogs to pet shops. These dogs are from mass produced puppy factories.

spiritdogs

Posted : 4/22/2011 9:06:49 PM

Good article naming some of the problem breeders: http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/mass-breeders-ship-thousands-of-puppies-to-palm-1114560.html?printArticle=y

List of USDA breeders that you may want to stay away from: http://www.puppymillssuck.com/breeders.html

Most pet stores have gotten savvy enough to tell customers that they buy from "breeders" and not puppy mills - do NOT believe them. In most cases, they are lying to you because they know that people don't want to support the horrors of puppy mills. Every cutesie little pup that gets purchased perpetuates a system that can entrap parent dogs for their entire lives - how would you like to sit in a cage all your life and have babies that you can't raise properly because you are sitting in your own filth, or lying on wire every night??? The only way to stop this is NOT to buy from pet stores or Internet puppy mills. The first place to call when you want a puppy is a local trainer, or the parent club for your chosen breed. Or, adopt a pup, or an older dog, from a reputable rescue group (make sure it's a 501 c 3 - ask for proof or check with Guidestar or the Foundation Center) or shelter.

sandgrubber

Posted : 10/14/2011 2:14:21 PM

spiritdogs
List of USDA breeders that you may want to stay away from: http://www.puppymillssuck.com/breeders.html

This yields a 404 error message. Do you have an updated link?

spiritdogs

Posted : 10/15/2011 3:00:57 PM

sandgrubber
spiritdogs
List of USDA breeders that you may want to stay away from: http://www.puppymillssuck.com/breeders.html

This yields a 404 error message. Do you have an updated link?

I don't, but I did find this conversation starter: http://www.wntpetsupplies.com/pumisupawprc.html

sandgrubber

Posted : 10/15/2011 3:53:04 PM

Super. I can buy something that caters to Animal Lib mud slinging sentiments and some capitalist can make 15 cents off my $1 purchase . . . which will not start a single conversation. (I loved bumper stickers in the 1960's, but I can't remember ever having a conversation about one).

Please, at least define 'puppy mill'.

The breeds we know have arisen from a long and honorable tradition of selective breeding. Some of the best breeders have a dozen or more dogs. Yes, there are problems. Errors have been made and some breeds have been pushed to unhealthy extremes. But there are breeders who put health, performance, and temperament before showing results. There are people who have consistently aimed for dual champions who balance conformation with ability to do some sort of work. There are breeders who put up with guff from the show fraternity because they put health and temperament above performance in the show ring. These guys don't deserve slander. Indiscriminate venting against dog breeders and lumping everyone as 'puppy mill' is extremely destructive.

I'm an old woman and won't be around to see where this all goes. But the thought of a world with no quality breeders . . . who make a profession out of breeding / training / and occasionally boarding dogs who are true to the breed standard, especially the functional breed standard . . . makes me glad that most of my life is behind me.

DougB

Posted : 10/15/2011 5:15:11 PM

sandgrubber
Super. I can buy something that caters to Animal Lib mud slinging sentiments and some capitalist can make 15 cents off my $1 purchase . . . which will not start a single conversation. (I loved bumper stickers in the 1960's, but I can't remember ever having a conversation about one).
Please, at least define 'puppy mill'.

I am not sure what triggered this. I've found members of this forum to be open and accepting of buying from breeders. Adoption from a rescue is preferred by many, but many on this forum have well bred dogs obtained from hobby and professional breeders. "Puppy mill" is a term used here to mean dirty miserable low life scum who raise poorly bred animals in unhealthy and cruel situations, using pups as a cash crop. Those who have been here a while consider this to be understood. Nobody attacked quality breeders . If you don't like the window magnet, don't buy it. It's optional. We are a capitalistic nation. Nothing wrong with profit. A business without profit closes, people are unemployed.

sandgrubber

Posted : 10/15/2011 8:05:15 PM

Sorry.

'Trigger' is a good choice of words. I went off on a knee jerk reaction. I'm smarting from being told on another site and another forum that some breeders whom I very much admire . . . people breed and train quality gun dogs as a profession and work hard to breed healthy, intelligent, working dogs . . . are puppy millers because they (sin sin) support themselves by operating their dog business and may even sometimes make a profit! Hasn't helped to be told, on the health > reproduction/contraception forum on this site that breeders have found it better to keep a low profile.

I've lived in Australia for the last 15 years . . . and was looking for pointers about how the anti-puppy mill question was shaping up in the US. I live in a county that has banned sale of mammals in pet shops, and I can't find any sign of puppy mill activity in California. But there are folks around who would like to get rid of all breeders. Asking for information and being told where I could buy a sticker hit a nerve.

DougB

Posted : 10/15/2011 11:36:48 PM

sandgrubber
I'm smarting from being told on another site and another forum that some breeders whom I very much admire . . . people breed and train quality gun dogs as a profession and work hard to breed healthy, intelligent, working dogs . .

No apologies needed. The first forum I started on is for rescue only and tried to make me feel guilty about having a quality field bred ESS. The only reason I need to buy a dog from anybody is that I want it. I was handed my head on a platter and asked by several people to leave the forum. I've had my share of labX dogs and unknown breeds. I've rescued several, but I committed the sin of buying a dog, and that made me unworthy in the eyes of some to contribute or share on their forum( I also asked questions and pointed out facts that were contrarian in nature). Most have been excellent dogs and great pets.

But there is a difference statistically in behavior, appearance, health and performance with dogs carefully bred for a purpose.

I visit some hunting forums also, and find they have a favorable view of breeding dogs for performance. Most haven't discovered how to make it profitable yet, and many are active in rescue work.

Liesje

Posted : 10/17/2011 8:40:00 AM

I am 100% supportive of experienced, knowledgeable, purpose-motivated breeding of purebred dogs. I am also 100% against all these new bills and proposals that only hurt people already breeding to a very high standard. However at least with my breed, no breeder with a truly valuable depth of knowledge and experience ever brokers puppies via a pet store. If you see a GSD in a pet store, it is from a mill or commercial breeder, period.

calliecritturs

Posted : 10/17/2011 10:53:28 AM

sandgrubber
I've lived in Australia for the last 15 years . . . and was looking for pointers about how the anti-puppy mill question was shaping up in the US. I live in a county that has banned sale of mammals in pet shops, and I can't find any sign of puppy mill activity in California.

Different states have widely different laws, not only about what can be bred IN the state but what can be brought in from other states. There tends to be a LOT of puppy mills in certain states (it tends often to either be states where the climate is conducive to outdoor kennels year round or an ability for pet breeding to fall under simple USDA regulations. If you go into a pet store you will often see the same 4-6 states as either point of origin or the vet's name who passsed the health check is from thath area.

You may need to narrow your search to California -- the varying state laws make each state different, and you'll likely find that California state laws may create a whole different set of rules/regulations. Conversely there are "rescues" in California that can resemble pet shops more than any of us wish but they advertise themselves as "rescue".

miranadobe

Posted : 10/26/2011 9:02:00 PM

Hey sandgrubber, you are certainly not alone here among the thinking set who support breeders of the caliber you describe. Like Doug, I've done plenty of rescue work (20+ years), but my next pup has the 85% chance of coming from a reputable breeder who breeds for the things I seek in my next dog. 15% chance remains open b/c, well, sometime something outstanding shows up in breed-specific rescue, and since I have close ties to the Dobe rescue near me, I have a fairly decent chance of finding what I want there, too, with exemplary health inspection, but no health history, so I take a big risk. I don't seek a conformation show Dobe (waaaay too expensive to campaign in the US), and my needs could be met by an average-bred Dobe, but health conditions are a major concern in my breed. Heartache 5yrs into dog ownership is something a breeder works to avoid, so a breeder will be my first choice.

PS, I've lived in every corner of the US, and I love many of my California associates, but the laws out there are enough to keep me from EVER living in that state.