What is a good guard dog?

Liesje

If someone wants/needs a true protection dog, then that person should seek out a dog bred from lines suitable for that work and be committed to training the dog for that type of work.  The nerves and soundness are genetic but the behaviors and the control need to be trained!!!!

 When it comes to pet dogs I much prefer a dog with zero reactivity to threats than one that is suspicious of strangers and might react dangerously.  A large dog that will bark at strange noises is all the average family needs for a deterrent.  That alone more than any other security unit will do more to cause people to pick another house.

It's something where I can see both sides.  Kenya's half brother was shot and killed attacking a home invader.  On the other hand, a girl I went to HS with woke up to a man standing over her with a weapon trying to rape her, but when he saw her Boxers (who did not attack) he turned around and left.  So I think it really can go either way, and if I feel that I may be physically threatened and need something beyond a visual deterrent or alert bark, I'll get a concealed weapon permit.

 I don't want to say I'm discounting what pet dogs can do to protect their owners.  I guess the difference to me is if a untrained dog steps in it would be no different than if my mother stepped in to protect me.  It would be a family member stepping in instinctively to protect their pack.  A dog trained in protection however is more of a working dog with a job.  Sort of like a dog trained to assist a handicap owner hasn't merely learned a couple neat tricks but is at work and needs to be extremely reliable when fulfilling the skills their owner's lives can potential depend on.

Liesje

Chuffy

 What is a good guard dog?

Prefereably all of these, but failing that, I've listed them in order of importance (IMO):

First of all, a dog that is temperamentally sound, confident and well socialised.

[.....]

 

As a matter of discussion, this is always the crux of the issue for me - what is "temperamentally sound"?  Because what I consider sound may not be what you or anyone else considers sound, and vice versa.  To what standard is the dog held, and how is this soundness determined/tested?

Hmmm.  By that I think I would mean generally confident as opposed to fearful, a dog that is not neurotic.... A dog that is well bred, (rather than from parents with health and behaviour issues coming out of their ears).  A dog with a reasonably high "threshold", one that is not "set off" by things which are actually every day and non threatening..... I am guessing that a dog who is a completely rubbish guard dog while adolescent, might, just with normal training and maturity, prove to be a good "guard" later on, especially if of a guarding breed.

Thanks for responding.  I don't mean to pick on you, it's just something I am always curious about, how other people define and determine a "sound" temperament.  I guess I have a much higher standard in that I will not call a dog "sound" that has never actually been tested and proven such.  For example, a dog can appear to be "a great agility dog" because it is a common agility breed, is fast, lean, energetic, has a lot of drive, easily motivated by food or toys....but still flunk at agility.  Likewise, a dog can be well bred, well socialized, not overtly reactive, fearful, or aggressive and yet completely buckle under pressure when presented with a real threat.  Even dogs like working line German Shepherds that are bred, selected, trained, and tested for courage and soundness routinely flunk on the SchH field at each trial.  I guess I just see a lot of terms thrown out and used too vaguely for my liking.  "Drive" being another such word, people often mistake a dog that is hyper and/or obsessive as a dog with "drive" but have never trained or tested their dog in any situation that requires true drive.

What concerns me is that for many people, a reaction that is truly one of fear - where the dog is just talk and wouldn't really follow through with an attack if the stranger/intruder became more threatening - is often mislabeled as the dog being a good guard dog, a good protector, and the dog is praised, justified, and encouraged when really this is not appropriate and damaging for the dog's psyche.  Again not pointing fingers here, but I have seen this "in real life" and I find it disturbing and dangerous.

Krissim Klaw

Liesje

If someone wants/needs a true protection dog, then that person should seek out a dog bred from lines suitable for that work and be committed to training the dog for that type of work.  The nerves and soundness are genetic but the behaviors and the control need to be trained!!!!

That's how I have always felt.  It would be much as if I happened to see someone trying to snatch a purse and stepped in.  That wouldn't make me a security guard or police woman.  I haven't had any training or skills to deal with such situations.  I would merely be an average person who saw something going wrong and my response happened to be one of aggression.

This is interesting to me.  And it made me realise, I actually have, privately, 3 categories.....

A watch dog - a dog that alerts by barking, and might make a lot of noise to deter an intruder, but not a lot else

A guard dog - a dog with natural protective tendancies.  Any pet might fall into this category, with some breeds having stronger guarding instincts than others.

A protection dog - a dog that has been TRAINED to guard/attack on command, and can be "switched on and off".

To me, just because a dog knows a situation is dangerous and moves to protect his owner or his home, that doesn't make him a "protection dog" (just like it wouldn't make you a security guard or police officer if you stepped in to help someone who was being robbed).

I also don't think you should RELY on your dog to protect your home.... that's waht burglar alarms are for.  A large, dark, noisy dog can certainly be a deterrant, but a determined wrong-doer could still get past him, even by killing him, and most dogs who are not trained otherwise will run, I think, when it comes to the crunch.  That's why stories of "hero" dogs tend to make the news.... because not every dog is like that.

Liesje

Thanks for responding.  I don't mean to pick on you, it's just something I am always curious about, how other people define and determine a "sound" temperament.  I guess I have a much higher standard in that I will not call a dog "sound" that has never actually been tested and proven such.

I would agree, if we are talking about protection work.  But just your average pet who has a tendancy/ability to protect his family to some small degree.... my standard is lower, because less is required of them.   

Liesje

What concerns me is that for many people, a reaction that is truly one of fear - where the dog is just talk and wouldn't really follow through with an attack if the stranger/intruder became more threatening - is often mislabeled as the dog being a good guard dog, a good protector, and the dog is praised, justified, and encouraged when really this is not appropriate and damaging for the dog's psyche.  Again not pointing fingers here, but I have seen this "in real life" and I find it disturbing and dangerous

I agree whole heartedly with this!

Chuffy

I also don't think you should RELY on your dog to protect your home.... that's waht burglar alarms are for.  A large, dark, noisy dog can certainly be a deterrant, but a determined wrong-doer could still get past him, even by killing him, and most dogs who are not trained otherwise will run, I think, when it comes to the crunch.  That's why stories of "hero" dogs tend to make the news.... because not every dog is like that.

Liesje

Thanks for responding.  I don't mean to pick on you, it's just something I am always curious about, how other people define and determine a "sound" temperament.  I guess I have a much higher standard in that I will not call a dog "sound" that has never actually been tested and proven such.  For example, a dog can appear to be "a great agility dog" because it is a common agility breed, is fast, lean, energetic, has a lot of drive, easily motivated by food or toys....but still flunk at agility.  Likewise, a dog can be well bred, well socialized, not overtly reactive, fearful, or aggressive and yet completely buckle under pressure when presented with a real threat.  Even dogs like working line German Shepherds that are bred, selected, trained, and tested for courage and soundness routinely flunk on the SchH field at each trial.  I guess I just see a lot of terms thrown out and used too vaguely for my liking.  "Drive" being another such word, people often mistake a dog that is hyper and/or obsessive as a dog with "drive" but have never trained or tested their dog in any situation that requires true drive.

What concerns me is that for many people, a reaction that is truly one of fear - where the dog is just talk and wouldn't really follow through with an attack if the stranger/intruder became more threatening - is often mislabeled as the dog being a good guard dog, a good protector, and the dog is praised, justified, and encouraged when really this is not appropriate and damaging for the dog's psyche.  Again not pointing fingers here, but I have seen this "in real life" and I find it disturbing and dangerous.

Chuffy

I would agree, if we are talking about protection work.  But just your average pet who has a tendancy/ability to protect his family to some small degree.... my standard is lower, because less is required of them.  

But is there less required?  SchH is oft criticized because it has become somewhat watered down, playing to the strengths of flashy "points" dogs and not dogs that show real power and courage.  A lot of adult dogs at the highest level are only ever trained and worked in prey drive, it's only a game.  Also, everywhere you go you will find people that only trial with their own helpers on their own field, where there dog has trained for years and feels quite safe.

IMO being an average pet charged with protecting the family is actually a much higher calling with much more required and more at stake than the average Schutzhund dog.

Liesje

IMO being an average pet charged with protecting the family is actually a much higher calling with much more required and more at stake than the average Schutzhund dog.

You could well be right, BUT - I would never put that responsibility on a dog.  As I said above, I would never recommend or condone RELYING on your dog to protect your home.  To be an alert/deterrant, sure, but not that level of advanced decision making and courage.  Some dogs do unexpectedly step up to the plate when someone is in trouble though, and afterwards people can say "wow, what a good guard dog!"  But it's incidental.  Again, that's just MY personal definition..... I doubt most or many categorise like that.  I only do because I am so sure that dogs are no more inherently heroic in these situations than people are. 

I will always have an Am Staff in my life.  Gypsy is so friendly on the street it's silly.  People get a big laugh out of her trying to fold herself in half because her tail is wagging sooo hard  However, when she feels I am being threatened or someone she does NOT know come sot our door, it is an entirely different story. I can tell her, "Quiet" and she stops, so she can be "turned on and off".

I started her as a puppy with this sort of work and she HAS stopped people form coming in our house.  Would she back up her bark?  Without a second's hesitation, IMHO. Therefore, she is a good guard dog.

 Well something happened recently that made me look into naturally protective breeds, I wanted a pitbull but they are illegal in Australia, so i searched and searched and finally came up with a maremma, naturally gaurdy of their people and property. My corso was mistreated so runs away rather then fights my GSD loves everyone regardless of the weapon they may be holding in their hand and my other two have a non-chalant attitude to everyone that walks onto the property. I needed a dog that could be my friend but at the same time take on the role as gaurdian, a dog that was smart enough to tell the difference and devoted enough to want to protect me. I believe the maremma encased all these qualities and so I contacted my friend who i knew had a litter, she doesn't take lightley to selling her puppies but trusted that I would be a fabulous home. I believe guard dogs have to have 3 defining qualities. Intelligence, courage and loyalty. also a nice pair of fangs and a name like Zeus help things along :)

 From what I've read, Pits are not really good at guarding from people if they have been well socialized.  They are more apt to consider an intruder their new best friend.  And of course if the dog is not well socialized and somebody gets bit, you wind up in the newspapers and court and the dog gets euthed.