I had my dog shaved- was this wrong?

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

most of the heat comes from inside the dog, not the outside. If you have a thick long coat, it traps the heat in there. How could a thick coat possibly help "cool" a dog?   Protect from bugs and sun, sure, but really, it makes no sense at all. Even if the dog gets his long coat wet it won't cool him efficiently, his body heat will warm up the water and he'll be a hot, wet dog. A short-coated or shaved dog can rapidly evaporate the warmed water and cool off, but not a long coated dog. When you're cooling a hot horse with water you have to constantly scrape off the warmed water and replace with cool water.


I shave the bellies on my double-coated dogs every summer and they stay much cooler and cool off much faster when wetted down.

 
I think your argument is flawed because for one, horses sweat and dogs don't.  Dogs pant to cool their bodies and their bodies manage heat differently than other animals.  I think you're anthropormorphizing here and assuming that your dog feels like you feel when it gets hot which may not be the case. 
 
The point is that it's the undercoat that needs to come off, not the outer guard hairs.  Consider the guard hairs as "air conditioning" and "sunscreen".  The undercoat is the insulator.  A warm bath with a vigorous undercoat raking will help - shaving the dog to the skin will not and will make him susceptible to sunburn, and will not help him feel any cooler. 
 
I don't have a problem with a belly shave - there's basically no undercoat on the bellies anyway. 

One thing I don't understand is shaving a short haired, smooth coated breed like an Australian Cattle Dog. It just doesn't seem like it would make them any cooler.

ACDs are not smooth coated. They're double coated. Smooth coated dogs would include Dobermans, Boxers, and Pit Bulls.

I don't believe the guard hairs can grow if the undercoat is shaved to the skin. If the undercoat is gone the guard hairs aren't coming back right in either, if at all.

Emma's guard hairs come in just fine, and she's shaved VERY short. I'm not taking about fuzzy teddy bear hair, I'm talking about you pat her rump and it sounds like hitting skin. I know lots of dogs (think Poms, Schnauzers, Cockers, even Shih Tzus have undercoat) who end up shaved down to the skin due to matting, and grow back fine.

I sincerely believe that it has to do with something OTHER than the haircut when dogs' coats don't grow back.

It's not that I "wasn't happy" with my haircut or that I didn't like it. Did you even read this thread?

I did read the thread. It doesn't matter what it "is". What they're going to hear is an unhappy customer. They're not going to go "educating" people about the dangers of clipping their animals, because the ONLY dangers are overheating and sunburn. They probably already warn folks with outdoor dogs that it's a possibility their dogs will burn or overheat.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

One thing I don't understand is shaving a short haired, smooth coated breed like an Australian Cattle Dog. It just doesn't seem like it would make them any cooler.

ACDs are not smooth coated. They're double coated. Smooth coated dogs would include Dobermans, Boxers, and Pit Bulls.

Yikes, somebody is grumpy this morning. [] You're right that they're not technically smooth coated and yes they do have a double coat, but the hair is very short and the coat lays flat. That's what I meant by smooth coated- that it lays smooth against the skin. It's nothing like a double coated breed like the Husky where the hair is VERY thick and fluffy.

I think your argument is flawed because for one, horses sweat and dogs don't. Dogs pant to cool their bodies and their bodies manage heat differently than other animals. I think you're anthropormorphizing here and assuming that your dog feels like you feel when it gets hot which may not be the case.

 
the golden retriever at the barn lies motionless panting in the shade all day until he gets shaved every early summer. Then he runs around and plays in between short sessions of motionless panting in the shade, even though it's actually hotter outside. Go tell HIM that he is mysteriously kept cool by his coat. And it grows back beautifully every winter. Dogs pant, yeah, but they radiate a lot of heat through their skin (if they don't have a coat to trap that heat), and if they get wet the evaporating water cools them just like sweat on a horse (unless the water gets trapped in their coat).

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d


I did read the thread. It doesn't matter what it "is". What they're going to hear is an unhappy customer. They're not going to go "educating" people about the dangers of clipping their animals, because the ONLY dangers are overheating and sunburn. They probably already warn folks with outdoor dogs that it's a possibility their dogs will burn or overheat.

You just said they "probably already warn folks with outdoor dogs that it's a possibility their dogs will burn or overheat." An ACD IS an outdoor dog, or at least is considered an outdoor breed. They really aren't lap dogs. So the fact that I wasn't "warned" as you suggested Petco "probably" does only reinforces that I should at least give them a courtesy call. Besides, I don't know about you but OVERHEATING and SUNBURN seem pretty damn severe to me.

And by they way, when did it become so wrong to educate people? If everyone had the same attitude as you nothing would change in this world.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I think your argument is flawed because for one, horses sweat and dogs don't. Dogs pant to cool their bodies and their bodies manage heat differently than other animals. I think you're anthropormorphizing here and assuming that your dog feels like you feel when it gets hot which may not be the case.

the golden retriever at the barn lies motionless panting in the shade all day until he gets shaved every early summer. Then he runs around and plays in between short sessions of motionless panting in the shade, even though it's actually hotter outside. Go tell HIM that he is mysteriously kept cool by his coat. And it grows back beautifully every winter. Dogs pant, yeah, but they radiate a lot of heat through their skin (if they don't have a coat to trap that heat), and if they get wet the evaporating water cools them just like sweat on a horse (unless the water gets trapped in their coat).

 
Does anyone take time to BRUSH the dog??  Shaving him is something that is really drastic.  I wonder if raking out the undercoat would make him just as cool as shaving might, without removing his coat?  Just a thought...

An ACD IS an outdoor dog, or at least is considered an outdoor breed.

Huh? I wouldn't consider any breed an "outdoor breed". I'm talking about dogs who live outside. I'm not talking about whether or not your dog is a lap dog. My under-20-lb JRT isn't a lap dog, by any means. She's an athelete and spends countless hours outside, with me. It's easy to tell a dog who is kept inside from a dog who is kept outside, though. Dogs who are kept primarily outside typically have a LOT more dirt in their coats, because they dig holes and lay in them to keep cool.

Sunburn is not a serious threat, most of the time. I've been sunburned dozens of times, and my JRT has been sunburned, as well (she was in full coat, BOTH times, it had nothing to do with shaving). Overheating.... most owners can tell if their dogs are overheating. I've only ever known ONE dog who died of a heatstroke, and he was a Boston Terrier. Dogs with flat faces have a MUCH higher chance of dying of heatstroke than shaved ACDs.

Petco isn't going to "educate" people about not shaving thier pets, because they don't want to educate them. Shaving down big dogs brings in a LOT of money in the summer. I know this, because I've been in the pet grooming industry for three summers now. I've shaved Labs, Goldens, Newfs, Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, etc etc. None of them has grown back a horrible coat (sometimes they have more wave, if they're fairly consistently shaved short), or had any serious problem from being clipped.

Yikes, somebody is grumpy this morning.

Actually, I'm not grumpy. I'm pretty happy[] My terribly abused, shaved down, double coated dog just earned her CGC. I just get sick of these threads about how horrible it is to shave down a dog, and the vast misinformation that accompanies them.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

An ACD IS an outdoor dog, or at least is considered an outdoor breed.

Huh? I wouldn't consider any breed an "outdoor breed". I'm talking about dogs who live outside. I'm not talking about whether or not your dog is a lap dog. My under-20-lb JRT isn't a lap dog, by any means. She's an athelete and spends countless hours outside, with me. It's easy to tell a dog who is kept inside from a dog who is kept outside, though. Dogs who are kept primarily outside typically have a LOT more dirt in their coats, because they dig holes and lay in them to keep cool.

Sunburn is not a serious threat, most of the time. I've been sunburned dozens of times, and my JRT has been sunburned, as well (she was in full coat, BOTH times, it had nothing to do with shaving). Overheating.... most owners can tell if their dogs are overheating. I've only ever known ONE dog who died of a heatstroke, and he was a Boston Terrier. Dogs with flat faces have a MUCH higher chance of dying of heatstroke than shaved ACDs.

Petco isn't going to "educate" people about not shaving thier pets, because they don't want to educate them. Shaving down big dogs brings in a LOT of money in the summer. I know this, because I've been in the pet grooming industry for three summers now. I've shaved Labs, Goldens, Newfs, Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, etc etc. None of them has grown back a horrible coat (sometimes they have more wave, if they're fairly consistently shaved short), or had any serious problem from being clipped.

 
What I meant is, they are working dogs. They are "designed" (so to speak), to work outside, and their body is designed that way. They need tons of exercise and don't do well with hanging out on a couch for 12 hours a day (and some dogs can and are happy to do so -i.e. lap dogs). I was ignorant and shaved my dog, not realizing that he really doesn't need to be shaved and as another poster pointed out, these kind of dogs work outside in the midwest heat all year- even in the summer- and it doesn't bother them one bit.
 
As far as sunburn goes and other sun ailments:  We are responsible for our pets. Just because we think a sunburn is no big deal and we can just deal with it does not give us any reason to have that same attitude towards our pets. My dog is currently shaved. He, right now, has a greater risk of sunburn or even heatstoke. I live in Tampa. It is over 100 degrees with humidity and the sun is unbearable.
 
And as you can clearly see from this thread many people know of dogs that have coats that did not grow back the same after being shaved, so just because in your experience you did not witness this does not mean it doesn't happen in other instances.

Petco isn't going to "educate" people about not shaving thier pets, because they don't want to educate them. Shaving down big dogs brings in a LOT of money in the summer. I know this, because I've been in the pet grooming industry for three summers now. I've shaved Labs, Goldens, Newfs, Border Collies, Australian Shepherds, etc etc. None of them has grown back a horrible coat (sometimes they have more wave, if they're fairly consistently shaved short), or had any serious problem from being clipped.

 
Many pet owners AREN'T educated....it is up to the groomer to do that (and MORALLY they SHOULD).  A good swift brushing of the undercoat (like a few suggested) will do much more GOOD for the dog then shaving it down.  In the summer it would take me AT LEAST 2 hours to brush out the undercoat of a golden retriever after a bath.  Shaving is quicker and probably cheaper.  I invite everyone who thinks shaving is okay to find an expert groomer or breeder and ask them if they think it okay to shave down a double coated dog.

ORIGINAL: robinkay6573


Many pet owners AREN'T educated....it is up to the groomer to do that (and MORALLY they SHOULD).  A good swift brushing of the undercoat (like a few suggested) will do much more GOOD for the dog then shaving it down.  In the summer it would take me AT LEAST 2 hours to brush out the undercoat of a golden retriever after a bath.  Shaving is quicker and probably cheaper.  I invite everyone who thinks shaving is okay to find an expert groomer or breeder and ask them if they think it okay to shave down a double coated dog.

Excellent point, robinkay. It should be the responsibility of the groomer. There are a million ways for a groomer to make money. Toenail clipping, teeth brushing, ear cleaning....  Heck, I tip 10% extra every time a waiter to waitress suggests a way for me to save money at dinner just because I appreciate them not trying to screw me over. I would have done the same thing for my groomer! lol!
 
Edited for spelling

I have a collie. i would never consider shaving him. he has his coat for a reason. He is what ark3 would consider a outside/working dog breed (Although he has no job and does live in doors lol). But if he was a working dog you bet he would be outside all day in his coat working sheep or what not. Dogs adapt. My dog goes for long 2 to 3 hours hikes a day in the heat. He goes faster then me and is still full of energy when we get home. And he swims so if we go by the theroy of water turning hot on their bodies, then he should be dead. he isnt he is happy and content in his coat. A good brushing can help with taking of lose hair that will cause problems, so I brush him 3 or more times a week.

The point is that it's the undercoat that needs to come off, not the outer guard hairs.

I was waiting for someone to chime in and bring this up!  One of my pet peeves, when I worked at a vet clinic, were people who took a soft brush to the top of their dog's coat and would never rake out the undercoat.  When the dog suffering from Springtime oozing hot spots had to be shaved in spots so the skin could be treated, they would swear that they brush the dog- ALL THE TIME.  I would get a metal comb and take one dip into the dogs coat and bring up (very easily, I might add) a handfull of dead undercoat.  I understand that most of the time this is from lack of education, so I would show them how to remove the undercoat with a comb so that the dog would be comfortable and, as a side effect, they would have a lot less hair in their homes, too. 

Dog's can get heat stroke.  When we went to dog camp a couple of years ago, it was really hot and a corgi got very sick from being a weekend warrior out in the heat.  This was not Florida, of Phoenix.  It was in Northern Illinois. 

My border collie had a heavy double coat and when you combed out the under coat at the beginning of the year when she was shedding, her extra undercoat would make 2 extra dogs.  We never shaved her.  She was a very energetic competition flyball dog and did fine. 

And as you can clearly see from this thread many people know of dogs that have coats that did not grow back the same after being shaved, so just because in your experience you did not witness this does not mean it doesn't happen in other instances.

Actually, I've seen dogs' coats not come back. I never said I hadn't. I've seen dozens (hundreds?) of dogs who's coats DO come back. I truly believe that the dogs who have coats not come back are not healthy. I saw one dog who's coat was growing all crazy, but after I brushed out her undercoat, it looked totally normal. That was simple lack of grooming.

And I don't live in Siberia. I live on the Georgia coast. My dog and I were outside for over two hours, this morning, being active. It was very, very hot, but niether of us got burned or had a heat stroke. I'm much more likely to burn than she is (I have very fair skin, and nothing covering it), so I go by the rule that if I need sunscreen, she does too. I don't leave her outside, in the direct sunlight, for hours on end (which is dangerous for ANY dog in this heat!), and I make sure she has access to fresh water.  It's fairly simple to keep them safe.... It's no harder on a clipped dog than a short haired dog. Some dogs are BORN without ANY hair, and Standard Xolos are serious, working dogs. They aren't "lap dogs" nor are they any less tenacious than your ACD mix.

It doesn't matter, though, because you're going to believe what you're going to believe. I'm done. My experience tells me something different than I read in these "OMG SHAVING IS EVIL" threads, but somebody always flips out when I post it. I'm not getting red inked.

ORIGINAL: jennie_c_d

And as you can clearly see from this thread many people know of dogs that have coats that did not grow back the same after being shaved, so just because in your experience you did not witness this does not mean it doesn't happen in other instances.

Actually, I've seen dogs' coats not come back. I never said I hadn't. I've seen dozens (hundreds?) of dogs who's coats DO come back. I truly believe that the dogs who have coats not come back are not healthy. I saw one dog who's coat was growing all crazy, but after I brushed out her undercoat, it looked totally normal. That was simple lack of grooming.

And I don't live in Siberia. I live on the Georgia coast. My dog and I were outside for over two hours, this morning, being active. It was very, very hot, but niether of us got burned or had a heat stroke. I'm much more likely to burn than she is (I have very fair skin, and nothing covering it), so I go by the rule that if I need sunscreen, she does too. I don't leave her outside, in the direct sunlight, for hours on end (which is dangerous for ANY dog in this heat!), and I make sure she has access to fresh water.  It's fairly simple to keep them safe.... It's no harder on a clipped dog than a short haired dog. Some dogs are BORN without ANY hair, and Standard Xolos are serious, working dogs. They aren't "lap dogs" nor are they any less tenacious than your ACD mix.

It doesn't matter, though, because you're going to believe what you're going to believe. I'm done. My experience tells me something different than I read in these "OMG SHAVING IS EVIL" threads, but somebody always flips out when I post it. I'm not getting red inked.

 
Jennie, I think you and I are both kind of agreeing in a way. You pointed out that a dog is succepible to sun ailments and all I did was say that since I lived somewhere very hot and sunny I really needed to be cautious of that now that he is clipped (and his skin is more exposed to the sun). And basically you are in the same situation as me!
 
It's just that you made it sound in your prior post that as a groomer you had shaved all kinds of double coated dogs and they had grown back fine. Now you are saying you have seen coats not come back. So we are both agreeing that there is evidence that his fur might not be the same afterward-- which poses a concern for me (and my pup).
 
So essentially we are in some kind of agreement... I understand you don't feel that shaving or clipping is necessarily hurtful to the dog or compromising to their health. It seems as though there are plenty of articles and research to support your opinion. So its just seems that is all the shaving discussion is: a matter of opinion, and you are certainly entitled to yours.
 
I'm still calling Petco though. []