Please keep Bear in your thoughts

sharismom

Vet spoke of giving me valium tablets tonight to have on hand.  Valerian did not calm Bear.  Even after he came out of the seizures, he was running into the walls, doorways.  Vet asked if I knew his history from before I adopted him - no, he was a stray, so even the shelter had nothing.  Vet said he might have been exposed to distemper and viral damage can make seizures harder to treat - that the dogs don't respond to the meds.

Get some Oat Seed (HerbPharm is the one I use for Kee -- works better than valerian in a LOT of seizure dogs -- I'll send you some if you can't find locally and then you will have time to order it yourself).  The guy at MorningstarHealth keeps it in stock for me for Kee.

YES YES get the valium (diazepam) to have on hand -- it works pretty danged fast actually.  It's a controlled substance so the vet doesn't just hand it out easily BUT getting it in him after seizure 1 should help STOP seizure 2 from happening.

Kee takes (tell the TCVM vet this and tell her to call Dr. DiNatale if she needs to that I'm Billy & Kee's mom) Dian Tan Tang (I hope I haven't butchered that name -- it's one of Dr. Xie's formulas).  Kee ALSO takes Gastrodia at the same time (which is like putting hot fudge on chocolate ice cream??) but there are times she needs it. 

Dr. D had me stop valerian a while back and use the Oat Seed because she was having much better luck with it for the seizure dogs, and it DOES work good.  It's different than valerian -- it's more a "mellower-outer" than a relaxant which wouldn't make a bit of sense to you unless YOU took it. 

You wouldn't use valerian and oat seed at the same time.  BUT you *can* use the valium after you've already given oat seed, I do it for Kee all the time.

With this kind of stuff you have to watch it so that you don't have two herbs/meds that are similar that will actually cause each other to cross-react (and intensify the symptoms rather than help).  That's why I try to be so specific.  Print this post if you want to take it with you.  Dr. D isn't available over the weekend but she'll be back in on Monday.  She's on the faculty for the TCVM.com people (the Chi Institute) so asking someone to call her isn't a hardship -- it's part of what they do.

 How soon after you put up the tree did the seizures start up again?

Ack I shoulda said above:

Do you have a "real" tree?  Remember, pine *anything* can trigger seizures -- particularly the SMELL of pine.  I didn't think to say that the other day and should have. 

Callie, my tree is artificial, no scent added.  I did remember what you'd told me previously about pine.  I put the tree up Saturday 12-13-08.  It was late Monday night 12-15-08 when the seizures started. 

If you didn't see the post I wrote earlier, I did get valium pills from the vet, but the two I gave him after the seizure did nothing but agitate him more.

sharismom

I'm not stupid enough to think that all this will be fixed overnight, but at what point is enough enough?  I am barely hanging on financially as it is. MRIs cost a lot of money, continual trips to the vet cost a lot of money.  I've never been one to give up easily, but what about his quality of life?  What about mine?    Okay, live with the seizures, not for them, but if every noise, light, sound, thought, and scent can trigger one, what am I supposed to do - live in a cave?  

Just the hubub of the season (and it can just be all he picks up visually outside on walks) can be enough of a stressor.  The beginning months of seizures are the hardest -- I won't kid you.  But often it takes some tweaking and adjusting with ALL dogs and people.

I'm not trying to blow you off  at all -- but you get a bit tough to stuff after a while.  You **are** a good owner/guardian. 

What kind of life is it?  It's a good one to be honest.  He KNOWS you care.  Dogs are so much more accepting of this stuff than we are.  And sometimes it's hard to go thru a prolonged battle with these problems.

Flatly, I thot I'd lose my MIND when Billy was going thru the IMHA.  We went thru months of me jumping every time I thot he might be crashing, of being TERRIFIED that the meds would kill him before we got it all under control.  And frankly, I truly MEAN I was **terrified**.  Lori and I have emailed endlessly back and forth about this because I truly DO sooooooooo understand.

We do the best we CAN do ... and that's all we *can* do. 

See when Bear seizes his first thoughts when he comes to are "She's with me phew!"  He doesn't hate his life.  He doesn't hate you.  And I'll be honest with you. and I don't say this lightly -- the more I go thru with my animals the better person *I* am.

Why?  Because I have to learn to deal.  I have to LEARN to let it go.  I have to LEARN to hang on ... or whatever I gotta do at that moment.  I have to learn to watch them and not make them nervous.

See, everyone thinks I have all this tons of experience and that I'm unflappable.  WRONG.  Menopause hits me like anyone else.  And I was in the middle of the worst of it emotionally when Billy was sick.  I'd gotten him after we'd lost THREE dogs in six months.  Three precious dogs and none of it was our fault.  One was the therapy dog beyond ALL others ... there will never *ever* be another Muffin the Intrepid (stop crying Callie). Then there was Pollyanna -- she'd been so badly abused the idiot broke her back beating her with a broom -- I carried her next to my heart (all 35 pounds of her) for three months.  She began to walk only to regress and eventually have a stroke because of internal damage caused by the abuse. 

Truly, I thot I'd lose my frigging mind.  Then I have Billy (who had all sorts of aggression issues, when he first came to us which most folks don't even realize now) who helped heal my soul and then within 2 years he's more deathly ill LONGER and more care than any other dog I've ever had (and a dog who is more care than a renal failure dog getting Sub-Q IV fluids three times a day is a dog who requires a TON OF CARE).

but it forced ME to learn to cope.  To evaluate how I reacted and whether or not it was healthy.  To realize sometimes it's not as bad as my brain/emotions want to think it is.  To realize sometimes I'm my own worst enemy.  To realize sometimes I just plain need to chill out before I drive the dog nuts.

Don't be so hard on yourself Tina.  You are doing a marvelous job.  And Bear's gonna hang in there with you.  And so will we. 

If you'll let me, I can get Oat Seed out to you tonight.  Be sure to tell the TCVM vet that the pharmaceuticals just aren't working well.  It may well be it's time to use some herbs and see if you can kick these seizures with THEM.  I have a feeling it may be what Bear needs.  Man, we've adjusted Kee's meds 12 times and we did again last night!! 

*hugs*  Callie

And ps -- I see your note that it's an artificial tree -- that's good.

The fact that they started so soon after you put the tree up tho -- man, I'd be betting it was the lights, or .... some neighbor's lights.  Does something reflect in the house??   The danged timing is just TOO close.

Make sure the doctor knows about the side effects of him being more agitated -- it can be dosed different ways (and Luna reacts that way to valium as well!!  *sigh*).  There ARE different drugs. 

It's exasperating as heck .  It's funny -- it's ME who has all the weirdo reactions and allergies.  I about freakin turned myself inside out before I figured out I was allergic to basil.  And THEN chipotle and Olive leaf (which are worse by far -- I mean I break out into painful HIVES that last weeks and weeks and weeks *sigh*).  All pretty darned innocent stuff (particularly the danged Olive leaf when I was just trying to boost my own immune system.  None of those are technically life-threatening -- but two of the three are commonly found in restaurant food.  The chipotle is one of those things that can be on a spatula or turner -- not even IN the thing I'm eating. 

Bottom line -- you'll figure it out. 

and btw ... you rock that you know exactly when the seizures started.  Bear is so fortunate to have you for a Mom -- truly he is.  *YOU* will get it under control if anyone can. 

The advantage of the herbs is often they're cheaper than the drugs.  Ask the vet to teach you some accupressure points as well -- they should help.

I feel defeated because it seemed we'd made some progress in the six weeks since his last episode.  I've been in touch with the TCM vet and she was the one who pushed me to get him on the Phenobarbital to get the seizures to stop, saying if he went without one for six months, we could try to wean him off.  I will see her Saturday, so am sure will go through this discussion again.

Frankly, I dealt with Shari's chronic eye problem for 12 years.  I certainly didn't want perfect, but was hoping for small issues.  And Bear is just as loveable as Shari, so it's not as though I can or would just toss him aside and search for a less troubled dog.

I just get tired of trying to be strong... 

Tired of trying to be strong??  WHERE did you learn MY tune???? *smile*

Tina, I SOOOO understand.  But after many many years of despairing and being tired of having to be strong, suddenly I finally figured it out one day.  When you go thru the kind of things we've gone thru (and I'm not just talking about dogs here) somewhere you will finally understand that these are the things that make us deep, loving, capable people.  The hothouse tomato has no flavor because it's raised in easy circumstances.  The one that grows outside in the garden amidst pests and trials and lack of water and too much sun -- it might not survive BUT it will have better flavor.

What we go thru helps us be who we are.  And I can tell you if I hadn't gone thru all the crap and crud I've dealt with in my past I likely wouldn't be the woman that David loves.  We would have never gotten past hello even if we had ever met at all. 

Life is still not easy -- but at this point I can see the sense in it all.  You'll get there. 

You're human tho -- so wanting it to be easier and manageable is ... well, it's what we are!  And it was the very fact that Shari and Bear have both loved you dearly -- frankly, you've had two awesome, deep, and loving animals and some folks never really value even one. 

This *will* change Bear ... and not for the worse either.  David and I were talking literally just last night about how Billy has changed.  I was feeling sorry for myself because I wish he would live forever (and if he even lives to BE **old** I'm gonna rejoice all the way).  But I said something stupid like 'I wish I'd had him from the beginning' and David looked at me like I was an idiot and said "But then he wouldn't be who is IS and we wouldn't want that would we?? He IS who he IS ***BECAUSE*** of all he's been thru.  Did you need to be reminded of that?"

Yeah ... I did.

Now he's the most affectionate and loving dog *I* have ever had.  He's a dog who will lie and be needled like he's being petted instead.  He "gets it" when someone is trying to help him. 

Give yourself and bear time to grow with this if you can.  And don't be hard on yourself.  You're human.  What you want is understandable and normal. 

When the meds don't 'work' that's when you start looking at alternatives.  Maybe not to *replace* the meds but to help. 

Thanks for the encouragement, Callie.  I like the tomato analogy. 

Through the things I've been learning in Al-Anon, I really am grasping that I have no control over anything.  I don't *need* control, but would like to feel my expectations aren't set too high and that I can understand life events on a certain level.  I do, sometimes, go a little overboard trying to research things to understand them. 

And I already have chronic depression, so lack of sleep and stress take their toll on me.  I can't think as clearly, can't seem to see many positives.  Then I get annoyed with myself and have to work to flip those thoughts around.  That's where I am right now.   When Shari died I had little reason to get out of bed.  Then Bear gave me that back.  I'm not prepared to lose that right now.  He gets me outside of myself (I'm very introverted), gives me a reason to walk and talk to people.  I just don't have that connection with the cats - they only want me to get up and feed them, and they don't walk well on leashes (esp. in a foot of snow).

I don't like waffling - one of my favorite self-made expressions is "pick something and go with it."  And that's what I really need to do, but I don't feel confident about any of my options right now.  None of them feel right, but I have to examine my motives.  Am I trying to help him or doing it for me?

Ugh...

sharismom

I don't like waffling - one of my favorite self-made expressions is "pick something and go with it."  And that's what I really need to do, but I don't feel confident about any of my options right now.  None of them feel right, but I have to examine my motives.  Am I trying to help him or doing it for me?

Ugh...

When I was going to Al-Anon, I remember hearing the term "analysis paralysis" and it fit me perfectly. I have a very difficult time making decisions and trusting myself when I do. I used to be much worse. Just buying a shirt of pair of pants was agonizing. I'd stand there forever and usually walk away empty handed. There's nothing wrong with assessing the situation, but this is all relatively new ground for you (and Bear), so be patient with yourself as you wade thru it.

calliecritturs

Give yourself and bear time to grow with this if you can.

Yes, what Callie said.  Tina, Willow is changed too from her illness.  I do almost nothing the same with her anymore.  It's almost like I've got a different dog.  You just take what comes one day at a time--if it's too much, one hour at a time--and do the best you can.  I was getting myself so, SO, worked up worrying and worrying.  I had to just deal with what was going on at the moment without looking ahead so much.  I had to just look at it like, I'm doing this and I'll deal with the what if's or the next step if and when I get there.  And, if you have set backs, just deal with those in the moment too, don't think about where you were before.  I used to do that and it would reduce me to tears--where's my dog, what happened, where did I go wrong, if I had known. . .I had to stop all that.  And, only when I did then I was able to also deal with other things in life along with her. 

sharismom

I do, sometimes, go a little overboard trying to research things to understand them. 

I had to stop that too.  I was sending myself crazy second guessing the vet and what we were doing.  I was also sending myself into anxiety attacks from reading all the "horror" stories.  But, every dog is different and what happened to one might not happen to another.  A drug could work for Bear but not well for another dog or vice versa.  You just concentrate on taking great care of Bear and let the vet worry about the rest of the stuff.  I was given this same advice and I can't tell you how much doing this helped me. 

cakana

When I was going to Al-Anon, I remember hearing the term "analysis paralysis" and it fit me perfectly. I have a very difficult time making decisions and trusting myself when I do.

Jeez, have we ALL lived the same darned life???

Back after I divorced the first husband (that ONLY took me like 3 1/2 years just to boot him out AFTER I made the decision to do it and that was 5 years after I first realized I was "in trouble" *sigh*) one night I literally self-destructed in the middle of the paper products in Albertson's grocery store.

The ex cost me my job and left me over $25K in debt to the IRS.  Frankly I got to the point AFTER the whole divorce was "over" and final where I couldn't decide how to tie my shoes with the laces already IN my hands.

But this one night here I stood in front of the toilet paper.  I was on my last roll at home and I had stood there for like 15+ minutes reading EVERY tag on every part of the shelf trying to figure out which was truly "cheapest" (that's cheapest per sheet but is it because it's 1 ply and will it be horrible and how many sheets are on that roll vs. this one and how do I factor in the coupon and and and ...)

Suddenly the dam burst and I began to cry.  Right there on Aisle 12 in front of the Charmin ... er, no probably the store brand. 

HOW could I figure this out?  I mean ... me ... I'm so mentally defective that even this idiot I'd been married to who rooked me SO badly ... how can *I* EXPECT to make a decent decision when I chose the idiot in the first place and thot he was great.  I mean HOW can I ever trust my own judgement again ... I mean ... I can't even choose the right darned paper to wipe my butt!!!

(sorry folks -- but you gotta understand .. a meltdown on Aistle 12 just is NOT pretty!!!)

But you know ... that's what it took.  Suddenly I started to laugh.  I thot "Dang ... it's OVER.  What do I think is going to happen if I choose wrong here .... I mean are the toilet paper police gonna come and get me?? I mean FOR REAL ... I have like ... ***DIFFICULT*** choices to make ... like how am I gonna pay back all the money to the IRS ... how am I gonna pay my taxes ... how am I gonna keep 3 dogs fed ... and now I'm having a freaking melt down over toilet paper??

GET A GRIP GIRL!!!! Just make the best decision you can and ... DO IT!  Toilet paper or taxes, dogs or me ... one decision is quite like another.  It might be bad or good but nobody is gonna cook me and eat me so just choose and get it over with"

It was the best advice I ever gave myself.

One of the problems we women have is we allow decisions to pile on top of each other.  Buying toilet paper truly shouldn't have been the deal-breaker for the day, when it was really dog problems, IRS problems, money problems and fear of the future that was my REAL problem.

Tina, you will LEARN.  Even if Bear has another seizure you ***will*** learn.  And he's not going to hate you. 

Keep a diary -- it frees your mind from having to mull everything over. 

Take a guess and make some steps.   If it's possible that it's lights -- you say you don't have the TV on without lights on -- but how about moving things around so you are between Bear and the TV.  Lay down on the floor where BEAR lies and look around and see if you can see *from that angle* any reflections.  Or ... keep the drapes ALL drawn after dark and light up the room. 

 Or ... cut the top and one of the sides out of a large box  and put it next to where you sit in the evening.  So Bear lies beside you but "in" the box (so the cardboard shields his eyes from any lights or TV)

Soooo maybe it won't work, but it would be cheap enough to DO and you might just hit on something.

email me your snail mail address so I can send you that Oat Seed and I'll take it to work with me tomorrow.

Tina, I can only imagine how upsetting it is to feel like the stability you've experienced in recent weeks has been setback by the latest seizures.  I know many people here have already said both these things, but I have to echo them.  First of all, you are a wonderful owner - in fact, I don't even think "owner" is the right word.  You are Bear's family . . . his voice as he adjusts to his condition and the medications it requires.  He's blessed to have you as his advocate. 

The other thing I wanted to repeat was that it's completely understandable and normal to wonder if you can handle this and to feel guilty for having what seem like selfish thoughts when you're worried, exhausted, frightened, overwhelmed.  Many of us absolutely relate to what you're going through.  Reading your posts in this thread (and the replies from people like Lori) ring very close to home for me - what you are all describing is exactly how I felt and acted when Tonka was sick.  I wish I could've mustered the strength to change my mindset like Lori described, but I was pretty much hanging on by a thread of adrenaline.  I definitely recognize what Cathy said about "analysis paralysis" and the effects of over-researching, etc. 

I don't have any experience with seizure treatments, so I can't offer any advice, but I will keep you both in my thoughts and send lots and lots of good vibes - vibes to help Bear stabilize and vibes to support you as you go through this. 

sharismom

Am I trying to help him or doing it for me?

You are doing it for both of you, Tina.  Exactly as any of the rest of us would do if we were put in your position. 

On October 26 DH & I made the decision to have Bevo euthanized the next morning.  He couldn't get up without considerable help, & even when we got him up, he couldn't balance or get around on his own.  It had become obvious that Bevo wasn't happy.  I knew that it was time when I gave him a squeaky toy, & he looked at it, squeaked it once, dropped it in his bed, & looked up at me.  That night, I stayed in his bed with him crying, & trying to memorize every tiny detail that I might have missed over the past five years.  The next morning, I got dressed, & went downstairs to get him up & loaded for his last vet visit.  When I walked into the living room where he was, he was laying there de-stuffing his squeaky toy.  He was genuinely happy to see me, & at that moment it was obvious that he was ready to fight a little longer. 

I won't lie & say that each & every day doesn't present challenges to both Bev & myself.  Every day is challenging, even with the huge strides that he's made.  I am happy that I let him help me make the decision.  

Hopefully, Bear will help make your decision a little easier.  Sometimes, it's just a little gesture like destuffing a toy, or playing with a ball that will give you hope when you feel like all hope is gone. 

(((((Hugs))))) 

BEVOLASVEGAS

Sometimes, it's just a little gesture like destuffing a toy, or playing with a ball that will give you hope when you feel like all hope is gone. 

Yes, I've felt like that many times over the past months.  That this was it, that I should do something.  And, I've even posted on here things like she wasn't doing well.  And, then the next day, she'd go out and do a zoom as soon as she hit the grass and I'd know I was wrong. 

I think you'll definately have a clear message from him and you will know it so well that you won't question it or yourself at all. 

Vet said he might have been exposed to distemper and viral damage can make seizures harder to treat - that the dogs don't respond to the meds.

I had a client once whose dog had seizures and the holistic vet said the same thing, but used Belladonna to treat him - he hasn't had a seizure since.  Might be worth mentioning...