Help me understand.............

jenn52

I am a Christian and apparently one of the few, around here especially, that actually cares about what the Bible says.

There are many different ways for Christians to focus on this issue, and I find it just a bit offensive that you imply that anyone who doesn't see it your way doesn't care what the Bible says.  I care very much what the Bible says.  In my personal life.  However . . . I'm pretty sure what the Bible says doesn't matter to the citizens of this country who are atheists, agnostics, Buddhists, Wiccans or whatever.  If I believe those people should be subjected to laws based solely on my religious beliefs, then I also have to be willing to accept laws based on their beliefs.  Because one very clear and very important thing Jesus said was "Do unto others as you would have done unto you".  So, if we ban gay marriage for the sole reason that it violates Christian beliefs, then I suppose we'd have to support laws that say women must wear burqas in public, can't go out in public w/o an escort who is a male relative, etc., since those are part of Muslim beliefs.   We can't have it both ways--unless we want to go so far as establishing one official religion.  And our founding fathers were pretty clear-cut about that.  In the end, I think the much better solution is to keep government and religion separate.  Allow people to practice their religion freely w/o imposing that religion on anyone else through laws that ban (or support) things solely on religious grounds.  Our founding fathers really were pretty darn smart.

I am supposed to vote based on my opinions and my values, not on everyone elses. So I did that. And apparently 53% of Californians did too.

BEVOLASVEGAS

I believe that all people, man or woman, should be allowed to marry whomever they want.

 

Might that be their daugher?  Sister? Niece?  Because that  is one of the biggest arguments that I have heard.... 

 

jenn52

There are more in the book of Romans. Because I am a Christian, I am a follower of Christ, therefore what hte Bible says, matters in my life. I am not saying I am perfect, I have sin in my life, but I do honor God's rules. Because I am a Christian, Christ is in my heart, therefore my decisions and opinions are based on His word. Regardless of separation of Church and state, my values are Christ's values. So I have to be true to myself and my values when I vote. I am not a gay hater. My boss is gay. I show her no disrespect because of this, we get along very well. i do not agree with her lifestyle, but I am still her friend. Hate the sin, not the sinner. I am sorry if people cannot understand this.

 

God is love.  Love does not force.  Christ did *not* force his values on others by passing laws or demanding that his followers change laws, he did it by changing hearts and moving in lives.  IMHO, it is our responsibility as Christians to follow his example.  

If we should translate what Christ has said into the law of the land, then you should have no trouble with the government taking the money you have earned (after all, YOU have not earned a thing, God has given you the blessing) and giving to those that are needy.  Christ makes a very big point of caring for those in need, even implying that those that do not are in deep trouble:

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

 41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

 44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

However, in other threads you are been extremely resistant to being taxed because you do not want to help people are you feel are lazy.  If helping those in need is God's law, and God's law is to be upheld in a secular government, then why do you not favor a law forcing people to help the poor???

 

 

And here's another one. I dedicate it to everyone.

It was originally written by Nick Lowe as a hippie folk ballad. Elvis Costello tripled the tempo and put a punk rock drum on it and a rockabilly guitar twang, and topped that off with a new wave vocal styling. And made a monster hit out of it. And bless his heart, he loves to sing it every chance he gets.

Both men are baritones and I am a tenor, so I used a capo to put it in the key of A.

"Peace, Love, and Understanding" - written by Nick Lowe, performed by yours truly, a real conservative from north Texas.

http://s216.photobucket.com/albums/cc122/ronws_photos/?action=view¤t=plu.flv

 

Not that this is relative to any of this discussion but you just said Christ doesnt force His values on others, why should I be forced into giving to others? I do it because God wants me to, not because gov't tells me to. God loves a cheerful giver, not one who is forced. God also says if you dont work you dont eat. And just for the record, no one ever said I am agaisnt helping the poor and I am not going to sit here and prove my compassion and ways I have served when this has nothing to do with the issue. I am not forcing anyone to accept Christ by voting yes. I guess the biggest thing is I cannot vote against my values. If you dont stand for something, you'll fall for anything. I choose to stand for something. I also question why people who do not align themselves with the Bible and Christian values, call themselves Christians. I am not doubting anyone's faith, I just want to understand why you align yourself with a religion that you do not agree with. And last time I heard, opposition to homosexuality is a equal opportunity religion offender, not just Christianity.

And the state shall establish no religion.

 

It's a very frustrating issue for a lot of us that voted no on that stupid proposition.  I think there's a good chance it might be overturned again because there seems to be some doubt as to whether a majority of voters can actually change the constitution.  Think for a minute ... what if a majority of voters decided there should be no free speech in CA?  What if a majority of voters decided to bring segregation back? If it doesn't get overturned here, I can definitely see it going through the appellate court and all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court ... waiting long enough of course for some of the old farts on there now to croak or retire and giving Obama a chance to seat a couple of young, liberal judges.  That would just tickle the heck out of me because I'd love to see the church groups in Utah that bankrolled this to the tune of $20 million lose all that money. Also, if we're going to bring the bible into this, please remember that God did not write the bible and I'm pretty sure the people who did write it didn't consult Him about anything that was going into it.  If God thought this was a sin, surely  there would have been an 11th. commandment. No? The whole *separate but equal* stuff didn't work with civil rights back in the 60s and it's not going to fly now either.

Joyce

fuzzy_dogs_mom

It's a very frustrating issue for a lot of us that voted no on that stupid proposition.  I think there's a good chance it might be overturned again because there seems to be some doubt as to whether a majority of voters can actually change the constitution.  Think for a minute ... what if a majority of voters decided there should be no free speech in CA?  What if a majority of voters decided to bring segregation back? If it doesn't get overturned here, I can definitely see it going through the appellate court and all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court ... waiting long enough of course for some of the old farts on there now to croak or retire and giving Obama a chance to seat a couple of young, liberal judges.  That would just tickle the heck out of me because I'd love to see the church groups in Utah that bankrolled this to the tune of $20 million lose all that money. Also, if we're going to bring the bible into this, please remember that God did not write the bible and I'm pretty sure the people who did write it didn't consult Him about anything that was going into it.  If God thought this was a sin, surely  there would have been an 11th. commandment. No? The whole *separate but equal* stuff didn't work with civil rights back in the 60s and it's not going to fly now either.

Joyce

Hooraw! You and I agree for a change.

 

I have to admit, I didnt read everyones post because I have limited time on the comp right now, just wanted to say I agree with Glenda's first post mostly, did read that one then realized everyones was long and I didnt have time.. I think everyone should be able to do what they want! Bottom line.... with abortion or gay marraige or anything that involves choice... Wasnt the old and apparently forgot thing GOVERNMENT AND RELIGION SHALL NOT MIX.  Errr... and yeah, that was passed due to certain voters religious beliefs.  I wish it would turned out differently for yall... .  All kinds of races and people GOT their freedom and freedom of choice... everyone should.  I think people need to realize that the whole world doesnt have to live based on one religions beliefs! That will be a happy day

ron2

Hooraw! You and I agree for a change.

Ron, we agree more often than you think. (insert smiley here.  I've been having major computer problems and now I can use font and font size, but not the color or the icons.)  I just like pulling your chain every now and then.

Joyce

fuzzy_dogs_mom

I just like pulling your chain every now and then.

Note to self: remove chain.

 

 

fuzzy_dogs_mom

Also, if we're going to bring the bible into this, please remember that God did not write the bible and I'm pretty sure the people who did write it didn't consult Him about anything that was going into it.

... and, the Bible was not written in english so what you have in the shelf or beside your bed is a translation from three main languages, from different manuscripts, oral tradition and several publications through the time (about 2000 years). I'm sure everybody knows how much gets lost and twist in translation.

OTOH I completely agree with gay marriage, gay civil union or watever you want to call it. "Unión libre" if you like.

 I just found this thread and again as always late in responding. I believe that gay couples should be able to be united in marriage just the same as a man and woman if they want. I believe they should have the same rights as straight couples, what is so different. Love is a beautiful thing, who's to say who we are to love.

Not that this question was posed, but I also think they should be able to adopt children, because who's to say who would give a child that needs it a loving home and who wouldn't based on their orientation.

jenn52

Not that this is relative to any of this discussion but you just said Christ doesnt force His values on others, why should I be forced into giving to others? I do it because God wants me to, not because gov't tells me to. God loves a cheerful giver, not one who is forced. God also says if you dont work you dont eat. And just for the record, no one ever said I am agaisnt helping the poor and I am not going to sit here and prove my compassion and ways I have served when this has nothing to do with the issue. I am not forcing anyone to accept Christ by voting yes. I guess the biggest thing is I cannot vote against my values. If you dont stand for something, you'll fall for anything. I choose to stand for something. I also question why people who do not align themselves with the Bible and Christian values, call themselves Christians. I am not doubting anyone's faith, I just want to understand why you align yourself with a religion that you do not agree with. And last time I heard, opposition to homosexuality is a equal opportunity religion offender, not just Christianity.

 

I don't think that values should be forced on anyone else, but apparently you do.  By voting yes you may not be forcing anyone to accept Christ, but you are FORCING your values on them.  YOU think homosexuality is wrong so YOU are forcing others to conform to what you believe simply because you believe it.  That is not the Christ *I* have read about.  He did not lobby and attempt to pass laws that forced others to fall into lock-step with what he taught.  If you are His follower and want to live by His example, why would you want to force others to live by His laws?

Christ does not forbid gay marriage.  In fact, it is not even mentioned.  You would think that if it were as big a deal to God as it seems to be to us, then it would have at least been addressed.  There is one time that homosexuality is mentioned in the New Testament, but there is argument over whether the Greek word it is translated from even means homosexual.   If it were such a huge deal, and God wanted there to be absolutely no doubt about His wishes, I would have thought that He would have made it way more clear (like He did with pretty much everything else).   Essentially, the idea of whether or not two gays being wed is a sin is open to debate.

For the sake of argument, let's say it is a sin.  Why is it important to pick on *this* sin?  God views all sin as equal, so if you fail to do unto others, if you use the Lord's name in vain, if you judge others harshly, if you refuse to give to the poor, if you fail to love people like Osama bin Laden (your enemy), if you divorce, if you cheat (mentally or physically), if you have sex before marriage, if you are jealous, if you lie, if you lack integrity, you are no less a sinner than a homosexual.  Therefore, who are you to judge?

Furthermore, I am confused as to how someone who voted against a marriage ban is going against Christ.  Allowing gay marriage does not make more people gay, just as banning it will not magically make people not gay.  Voting against a ban does not mean that churches have to recognize gay marriage, it just means that the government, which is a separate entity from religion, has to recognize unions.

The bottom line is do unto others.  I do not want anyone using their religious views to impose laws on me (how would you feel if we suddenly had an Islamic revolution and we were all forced to adhere to the principles of Islam), so I will not do that to others......