His swimming career is over- Bugsy (rant)

Training is good, we gotta train.  But I think sometimes we all forget these are DOGS.   They aren't simply animals that respond to OUR stimulus -- they are DOGS.  And there are times, when that *thing* they are looking at or sniffing just plain makes the "dog" in them take over and completely tune out humans and anything that is of our world.  The "dog" takes over and they cease to become our well-trained, loves of our lives.  They may come back to us, may appear 'sorry' or penitent ... but there are just times when that 'dog' drive is TOO strong to be ignored.

Unfortunately, it's during those times when dogs die -- they race after something and get hit by a car, drown, or SOMETIMES it can get even uglier.  They may completely and utterly enjoy a thing ... and their recall may be 99.999999%.  But ... I tend to err on the side of caution.

 Part of that is because of my physical limitations ... but honestly, part of it is just because as I've gotten older I "trust" darned little in this life.  I'd rather pull a dog back 99,999 times in over-caution, than have that ONE time be disaster. 

Training, proofing, etc. -- yes, we have to do those things.  But honestly ... there are places where in wisdom we just plain don't go trying to 'trust' them simply because we may domesticate them, we may train them endlessly but the inner 'dog' is still there, alive, well and apt to do the completely unexpected, crazy thing -- that to THEM is simply seizing the moment. 

No "blame" here at all -- just agreeing with your title.  His swimming career is over. 

Good ghourd, Karen.  How scary.  Been there with G so I know exactly where your heart is & stomach was.  I aree with Cat0.  Don't write his swimming off.  You & he can come so very far.

I agree with Callie and Grady.  Don't write off the swimming but don't make a career of it either.

I don't think all the training in the world will change B's prey drive so swimming at that lake has become dangerous, fun while it lasted but no more.  Perhaps just saving the swims for different environments that only come along every now and again.

He can swim now - that is an achievement!  Something to do once in a while.

Bugsy - no more scaring your Mom like that!

Yeah -- he can swim ... just not *there*.  Evaluate the risks (not just from the dog's point of view but can YOU get him if he runs amok again).  THIS particular lake may just plain not be a good place.

Oh Karen, how scary.  Bugsy, you can't do that to your mom!!!!  I am glad you both physically survived, its the mental scars now that will take a bit longer...as usual.

 Hugs from us!

kpwlee

BTW he's as happy as a clam tail wagging like what we gonna do now ma?

I'm sure you will come up with something really nice and not dangerous I'm glad you both are great and I hope his leg gets better and your bruise too. Take care!

mrstjohnson

its the mental scars now that will take a bit longer.

Thank you one and all.  I've stated/complained before about him but this one took the cake so to speak. In all seriousness I have said that he is a whole lot of dog - not just in size. I have busted my butt to learn and to be a better owner/trainer but today I just feel like I am no match for him.  Normally people complain about a dog that struggles with house training or is destructive, all that has been easy.   But his prey drive, focus and intensity combined with his power and size is just overwhelming.

He can be such a sweetie I feel sorry to say how angry I was and how frustrated I am with him.  Thank you all for understanding

I understand exactly what you are saying.  I've said a few times that Heidi is too much dog for me.  But, when I said that to my trainer, he said nope...she's not too much dog for you...you can do this.

I'd say find another swimming hole.  Someone's pool, a creek.  Same lake even...just keep him on a long line for a while if there aren't things it would wrap around.  Even for just a little while to get your confidence back. 

There's nothing wrong either in keeping him under constant control with a long leash or other tools.  Have you considered getting him e-collar trained?  Heidi's a different dog when her e-collar is on.  Don't even need to use it anymore...she just knows that when that collar is on, there is no funny business.  You could get a trainer to help you with that.

I'd hate to see you guys miss out on a great exercise; maybe you just call this a "break" in his career. 

I'm glad you and B are OK.   Maybe once this memory fades you'll try some swimming with him again??  I know I've certainly done my share of "that's it, no more's" with Willow over the years and I always give in, LOL!!

Lori

Really though, I'm glad you are OK, that was very dangerous.

Wow--glad you're OK!

It's too bad you guys aren't hunters.  Bugsy sounds like he'd be phenomenal at retrieving.

 I know just how mad you are.  Been there many times with my dogs. 

You don't have to give up swimming, just not around birds.  Keep coming up and have him swim with my gang, much less stimulating.   You can leave him if you want.  The guy was right about the thousands - LOL!  Or, if you preferred, I could put you in touch with someone who would sell you a franchise chasing geese all day long.  On MUCH SMALLER ponds.  But of course we'd have to get ol' Bugsy trained.

Callie, I know all this sounds scary - and yes Karen's playing with fire - but this is the kind of drive I deal with constantly.  The flip side is that dogs like this, once they buy in to the "team player" notion, actually become something a bit more than "just a dog."  The kind of dog you can send a mile away and know you can whip their head right back to you with the toot of a whistle. 

Ted's starting his trial career Saturday.  Ted's a dog that a top trainer looked at and said, "I'm not sure whether you will be able to train this dog - he's tough!"  Karen's seen him and knows the kind of control I've got on him now.  Six months ago me and that same trainer spent twenty minutes hunting Ted and a lone sheep he'd chased into the woods and into a creek.  There was barbed wire and all kinds of dangerous stuff in that woods and I was crying with frustration trying to get Ted to call off.  If someone had offered me money for Ted when we came out of there, I'm not sure what I would have done.

Now I can send him 200 yards for sheep, stop him, move him left or right a few inches at a time or all the way around, whatever I want.

It's not magic, it's just training.  And I'm not that great a trainer or handler either.  There's hope.  I could say a lot more but I leave it there for now.  Let's just say I'm not terribly surprised and I really, really wish you'd bring him back Karen and let me work with him on sheep. 

willowchow

I know I've certainly done my share of "that's it, no more's" with Willow over the years and I always give in, LOL!!

Been there done that!  I remember myself saying that I will never let Martini off leash, again!  She has a very high prey drive and will bolt after wildlife without looking back, like Bugsy.  

But that was in the past, and I let her off leash no problem now.  It's not her being less prey driven or better trained. It's me knowing her "every move" like the palm of my hand and being smart about where I take her.  I know exactly what dog she is and what she's going to do if she spots that rabbit, deer, or a strange dog.  Her chasing after things doesn't bother me anymore, I let her do it all the time now and she loves it (great exercise too!), but I go to those places where I know she will be safe from cars. I keep training her still, and she does stay closer to me when not chasing and comes right back after she loses it.  

But her chasing after things is not something you can train her out of. It's impossible!   The only thing that might help with this kind of prey drive is a shock collar. A strong one!

A shock collar might work, but it might not. And you CAN fix this without one, IMO - it's just going to take creativity and persistance, and I know you've got both.

 My friend LIndsay has a springer who is similarly obsessed with birds. (Unsurprising. He's fieldbred from a family of lunatic duck dogs.) He will break ice on a pond ot get into the water with ducks and he's swum for nearly an hour straight in 40 degree weather after ducks on a pond last winter after he slipped his leash. He has, to date, stayed on a long-line while swimming for years, AFAIK. On Wednesday, he did three BEAUTIFUL recalls off birds out of the lake, though. He was dragging a long-line with no one attached (one of her other dogs decided to have a snark at Kaylee and the leash got dropped in the confusion), but he DID IT. We did a whole bunch of Premacked recalls back in February and a few other times and I think it may have finally sunk in, at least a little bit. It IS solvable. It's just going to take work. Take Becca up on her offer- I know I would!
 

http://www.finographics.com/schutzhund/obedience/ecollarwork.html#CRITTERING%20AND%20DOG%20TO%20DOG%20AGGRESSION

I would suggest trying this protocol on birds.

 Ugh, Karen, that must have been terrifying, I'm so glad you both are okay. And I totally understand the frustration and anger, too. I feel it all the time with my little guy, and he's tiny! I just have to stop, step back, and remind himself for every step backwards we've made many many more steps of progress, and then it feels a little less overwhelming.