New foster dog attacked my daughter!

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

ORIGINAL: mrv

I say remove the dog immediately,,, and I truly, strongly, and sadly lean toward euthanasia unless a behaviorist will rehab,,,, not consult,,,, rehab.

Unfortunately, I agree.  You cannot, in good conscience, adopt him out.  This was not a nipped hand, it was a body bite - not good.  His aggression could stem from anything, but you cannot afford that level of liability, and he cannot afford the consequence of biting again.
You must remember his age - he is becoming an adult.  This may be the "switch" that goes off that Pittie owners usually only need to fear with regard to other dogs.  But, this dog may possibly not have made the connection that children are leaders, too.  And, even if you could rehab him with your kids, there are kids in the universe that will come into contact with him.  You really can't save them all, and sometimes it's heartbreaking...  Had he nipped a hand, or air snapped, I'd be more forgiving, but he went for the body and he bit.  That tells me he meant it.  I'm with miranadobe - his reaction was poor under very little pressure.

I agree with both posts above. I would not, under ANY circumstances, take any chances with him around my kids!

I actually wasnt aware that there was a difference between a body bite and bites elsewhere.I assumed that she was bitten there because here arms were up,holding the chains on the swing.Theres even the chance he was trying to bite the chain of the swing.We will never know.
Dont worry folks he isnt allowed near the kids anymore.When they are home its in the crate or outside for him.I hate doing that to a dog but thats the way it has to be until be figure this out.The kids are in school during the week days so he can come out then and i am home all day so he gets plenty of time outside.He is very well behaved with me.He even respects me more than DH.
As far as temperment testing all we can do is what we do on our own.Testing for food agression,toy/treat aggression is pretty easy to figure out in a foster environment as well as DA and cat issues.We have had very few badly behaved dogs in the past and never had a bite besides one fear biter that would nip your hand.She is still here and has gotten much better.

i think the fundamental difference between a "hand" and "body" bite is the intent... usually a "hand nip" or arm or even ankle is really more a warning than anything else, and going straight for the body could be construed as more than a warning..
 
i didn't realize her arms were up, and it could have been an attempt at the chain...
 
you seem to have a really level head about it, and with your level of experience, i would definitely trust your instincts.  maybe she just needs a little more time to prove it was an "accident.."

Nyiceprincess, super that you are keeping a level head and acting responsibly for your family and the dog.  I remember you telling me Sarge looks just like Newt.  If I was adopting a dog, Sarge would surely be welcomed here.

It actually took me a while to remember that her arms were up! I remembered later that night,,oh yeah,sitting on the swing,holding the chains,arms were up! It also just occurred to me this evening that ,duh,I can try swinging and see how he reacts! Dont know why i didnt think of that before.I dont know if it would work with me since he does respect me a bit more but i can atleast watch how he looks at it and if it seems to bother him at all.I will be squeezing my ample behind into the kids swing tomorrow.I will let you know how it goes!

Please be careful! I hope things work out, but do take precautions so you're not putting yourself in danger as well...

Please be careful! I hope things work out, but do take precautions so you're not putting yourself in danger as well...

I agree - do it when there's another adult around or nearby, should he escalate into something more.  You might even want to video tape it so that you can see a different perspective than yours - what sort of body cues does he give, etc.
If you're not used to evaling dogs who bite people, but you want to do the best possible by the dog, then I'd get a consult w/a pro. 

I have nothing to add to what has already been said above, excet to add my support FWIW... 
 
Also to warn anyone coming to this thread, if you are interested in the link on swings triggering attacks you might want to avoid that if you are a new mum and/or a bit squeamish.... It's not overly graphic but they don't skimp in their description of the attacks and what the injuries are.  Call me a wimp but I was wincing and feeling sick and couldn't finish reading it.  Just a warning.

OK Dh and i went out to swing.He basically ignored me but look at DH very confused and then ran off to attack his favorite toy ( a bucket) He then came back around and bit DH in the knee. So i guess he doesnt like swinging! Now what? He knew he was wrong for biting,DH jumped up and the dog peed himself!  He did not give a warning growl this time and the bite was very light,no mark.

At least you know what triggered it!  Does this mean it was a prey response?  If he was growling I would guess maybe not... I didn't think dogs that were "hunting" were "aggressive".... its a different sequence and controlled by a seperate part of the brain...?
 
How would you figure out if it's ONLY the swing that upsets him or if other moving objects are likely to trigger an attack too?  I'd be a bit concerned about how he's likely to respond in other circumstances that he is not 100% happy with because it seems like he didn't take long to decide to bite - and redirect when he couldn't get to the trigger.
 
This must be so hard for you.... good luck in whatever you decide.

If you look at it from the dog's perspective -- it's a confusing agressive/submissive action -- if the dog is directly in front or behind a swing brings you forward FAST (I'm chasing YOU) and then you retreat FAST (you can chase me) but then it switches and again forward FAST, backward FAST.
 
So it is literally confusing -- do I chase or am I being chased?  prey or aggressor.  And if the dog is at all fear aggressive it would trigger it. 
 
I honestly think it's significant that the bite from behind was worse and with a smaller person.  You have already told me the dog sees you far more as the 'alpha' than your husband, but a male is always potentially bigger and stronger than a female.  But it sounds to me specifically like a fear aggressive thing.  he TRIED to take out his frustration on the bucket (did you realize you used the word 'attack' regarding the bucket)?  Sounds to me like he literally chose to distract himself with the bucket and then probably couldn't handle it.  But he at least came around front (at least that's what your description sounds like) to get your husband from the front. 
 
FRankly I would also see what he does if you run at him from the front and then back up (like you might see in people playing football, etc.)
 
This is the sort of play/moves you're going to see with both adults and kids -- it's potentially explosive with this dog.  And honestly I don't know enough about this type of training to help you desensitize, but I can see where in day to day life it could be very difficult whether with adults or kids.

did you realize you used the word 'attack' regarding the bucket)?

Oh yes! He did violently attacked that bucket! Growling and snarling! And he did bite from the front.He seemed very nervous about biting this time.Like he knew he sholdnt but couldnt help it.And yes DH is a very tall large man.

ORIGINAL: nyiceprincess

Sarge our new pit mix foster attacked my 13 year old this morning.

 
nyiceprincess, Just out of curiosity are you in New York?  This kind of thing shouldn't happen with fostered dogs or adoptions.  This is exactly why in some parts of the country people lose faith in shelters and will buy elsewhere.  They are VERY careful who each dog goes out to at the shelter I volunteer at.  They are especially careful with breeds like pit bulls.  Did they do a through examination and temperant test before they allowed you to foster this dog?

ORIGINAL: calliecritturs

FRankly I would also see what he does if you run at him from the front and then back up (like you might see in people playing football, etc.)

This is the sort of play/moves you're going to see with both adults and kids -- it's potentially explosive with this dog. 

very, very interesting analysis, callie... and it brings me to a story about my husband being attacked....

my brother's dog is a chow-bull mastiff mix.  he is extremely territorial with the house, and very cautious with strangers, particularly if they are large males.  now, my husband is a "dog person" and he always has been.  the scariest of dogs love him.  so he was never afraid of my brother's dog.  (for the record, i am STILL sketchy about this dog).  one night, years ago while we were visiting for the holidays, my husbands was involved in a game of chase with JD (the dog) and the dog chased him into the sunken living room area.  as my husband chased back, JD suddenly lunged at DH and bit his wrist.  he immediately retreated and hid under the table.  only DH's watch kept it from breaking the skin; the teeth holes are in the band to this day.

i always felt that DH's play may have been a bit overstimulating for JD, who has a bite history (people who have entered the house when nobody is home), and now, after reading callie's analysis, i'm sure of it.

basically, what i'm saying is that this MAY be manageable.  he may just need a family who is sensitive to his issues.  and if it was ME who was interested in adopting him, i would certainly be willing to work with it....
 
ETA this reminds me of an old thread in behavior "should they all be saved", and it's interesting how opinions about what "should" or "shouldn't be" worked with as the story becomes more clear to the readers and perhaps even to the poster...

Wow, this sounds a lot like what a shelter dog Wally did to me last month.  After I explained the "attack" in detail to the behaviorist and she spent time with him while he reproduced these behaviors, she concluded that he plays very rough, has a dominant personality (meaning he doesn't hesitate when he wants to try to play with you, he feels he is allowed to initiate such play), and has little bite inhibition, so he bites VERY hard even when it's just a play bite.  Basically, he treats 5'7" 150 lb athletic adults like me as tug toys.  Like your daughter, he got me on my side and ribs several times (among other places), latched on and pulled VERY hard.  I was wearing winter clothes so I did not bleed but had very deep bruising which I'm still getting over and muscle aches for a while.  There were no signes or cues leading to his "attack", one second we were walking along fine and the next he had lunged from behind and latched onto my shoulder.

So along with what callie and badrap have said, maybe this dog is a lot like Wally in that certain movements just make him snap into play mode, but their "play" unfortunately happens to be very rough and dominant.  It's not enough for them to just get excited and bark at the swing. The reason I call these "attacks" in quotes is that it seems with a dog like your foster and a dog like our Wally, if they really meant to attack, they would have easily succeeded in ripping me and your daughter open.  IMO, when dogs like these do intent to maime and kill, they will!

I think both cases are dogs that need to be placed in foster care with people who have the right experience and training and no liabilities like children or other needy foster animals.  You obviously have a higher duty to your child and should not feel guilty should you decide to have him placed elsewhere or even PTS.  Our shelter's problem with Wally is that we already have tons of labs, so who is going to want to adopt and adult lab with a long history of biting and playing rough?  Right now he is being trained and volunteers are not allowed to work with him without supervision of the trainer.  He has so much energy and is confined to a tiny kennel and now only a few people are allowed to work with him....I really wonder if PTS is a kinder option for him. []