The Elitist Attitude.

AgileGSD

 Well the SV thing is pretty important for anyone breeding to the traditional GSD standard. I like coats too and to me it wouldn't necessarily mean the dog shouldn't be bred if it is an otherwise good GSD. I don't so much care for the breeders who breed only for coats though - breeding only coats to coats to produce more coats. Belgians have some really wacky coat/color issues involving AKC registration, so my view of such things could be a bit skewed at this point ;)

 

I agree.  I don't have a problem with certain coated dogs being bed or dogs that throw coats.  I'd have a problem breeding FOR coated dogs or EXCLUSIVELY coated dogs, though.  If a coated dog has otherwise been proven sound in temperament, drives, and structure, I don't have a problem with it being bred to improve on something other than coat.  Too many irresponsible and BYB type breeders are just breeding to get coats though.  Also, it's not like GSDs are so rare that we've got to tap into coated stock to improve the breed. 

 IIRC, there's a second club primarily for the coated dogs in Germany, no?   

Well I hope that no one minds a "newbies" opinion being posted here.  I have been lurking on this site for quite a while but this thread finally convinced me to sign up and post.  Although I understand the views of many of you "elitist" that post here I think that you are harming your own cause.   Most people that own and care for dogs do not need nor desire "show quality" dogs!  We want PETS!!!  Those that believe that only those dogs that are "proven" in the ring should be bred are IMHO dead wrong.  I have owned "well bred" dogs and some not so "well bred dogs" but what mattered was not how well they would have done in a ring but rather how well they would do in my family.  If a person is breeding healthy, good tempered, intelligent, and friendly dogs with the goal of producing healthy, good tempered, intelligent, friendly PETS then I do not have any problem with that.  If a person is more concerned with the breed "standard" then producing good quality PETS then they will end up producing dogs that are less likely to fit in with families and will be more likely to end up in the pound.  Sure those dogs may end up winning lots of shows but that does not in any way mean that they will be a good family pet.  Insisting that only dogs that can "improve" the breed seems to indicate that one thinks that the breed needs improving.  Most "pet" owners choose a breed, not because they think that breed needs improving, but because they like that particular breed the way it is.  Too often the desire to breed to the strict confirmation standards produces more health and temperament problems then it corrects!  Look what is happening to the GSD!  It appears that those that desire a "working" GSD breed to one standard while those desiring a  "confirmation" GSD breed to another.  If that is OK then what is wrong with those desiring a "pet" GSD breeding for that purpose?  The vast majority of GSD owners will never enter their dog in any competion and their dogs will not be a "working" dog either so the traits that they want in their pets may not be the same as those that are being bred for by the "show" breeders or the "working dog" breeders. 

 

Mark

DPU

I must tell you this really overshadows your other claimed accomplishments because the others just seems you are catching up to the standards

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Catching up to the standards? Really, we are working to CHANGE the standards. Because *natural tail* certainly does not show up anywhere in the Canadian or North American standards. And we're not *fixing* any behaviour problems, the goal is to create ones that don't have any to begin with. That is the point.

Marklf

Although I understand the views of many of you "elitist" that post here I think that you are harming your own cause.   Most people that own and care for dogs do not need nor desire "show quality" dogs!  We want PETS!!! 

Good! Then the shelters and rescues will be happy to see you when you come in...and the reputable breeder will have a nice puppy for you to purchase should you decide you want a purebred puppy.

The reputable breeder selects for good adherence to a standard IN ADDITION to all the things you mentioned. The two are not as you seem to think, mutually exclusive nor ONLY to be found in a BYB breeding. I am wondering if you'd agree with that?

MOST people choosing a purebred animal choose such because of the inherent TRAITS and the predictability of those traits. IOW a person does not choose a Golden because they want a lazy, black, small dog...do they? No...they are usually basing their pick upon information and pictures of WELL BRED specimens of whatever breed.

When I had Akitas I was approached daily by folks that had one that did not "look like mine"....they had BYB dogs that were weedy or large of ear or thin of bone. Upon seeing a well bred example they realized what they'd actually given up...to own an Akita "at a bargain price' or 'a convenient time".

Your post makes it seem like reputable breeders, do not produce pet dogs? I myself have placed more as pet than as show...whether due to quality, or my own preference for that puppy or dog. I guess I don't understand why a reputable breeder...ISN'T a viable option along with a shelter or rescue if someone "just wants a pet". Why would a BYB be above those former...choice wise?

ETA: Is it just about a "bargain" or "a dog available when *I* want one? Your thoughts Mark?

rwbeagles

Marklf

Although I understand the views of many of you "elitist" that post here I think that you are harming your own cause.   Most people that own and care for dogs do not need nor desire "show quality" dogs!  We want PETS!!! 

Good! Then the shelters and rescues will be happy to see you when you come in...and the reputable breeder will have a nice puppy for you to purchase should you decide you want a purebred puppy.

 

Yes! Yes!  And I just wanted to add that if someone is in love with a particular breed (like I am now with BCs) and wants a "pet" the breed rescues would LOVE to talk to you and place a wonderful pet "whatever" (BC, GSD, etc.) in your home.  Going to a breeder or breeding  yourself is not the only (or best) way to get a pet for your family or to provide pets for others.  I'd rather save a life already in the world than create a new one.

absolutely! The "we want PETS!!" made me smile..THAT'S what rescues want to hear! LOL. There are so very many options OUTSIDE of BYB's or Pet stores...for those that just want a pet to love. I think that's a wonderful point to have come out of this somewhat contentious but interesting thread!

This thread has been highly interesting to me to see the views and opinions of the people here. I'm not going to post my stand on the views expressed here but I will say that I am an Elitist.  

oranges81

but I will say that I am an Elitist.  

I think we should all put "I am an Elitist" in our signatures. LOL!

I placed two litters of pet quality gsd pups. Not because they were necessarily not show quality, but because the circumstances of their births meant that they couldn't be registered. These were foster pups. When I was breeding, many of my cockers were considered by me, by my mentor, to be pet quality. Didn't mean that they were not stunning dogs, not wonderful examples of the breed, but chances were not good for them finishing in the show ring. Likely an equal number of my pups were deemed to be show quality, and probably ninety to ninety five percent of those DID finish. There are certainly excellent pups available from breeders, from rescues and shelters, pups that ARE purebred and often papered. Quite honestly, after my heart dog died, I knew that I didn't want to get another cocker. I still had three females so I wanted a male and I knew in my heart that no matter how perfect a new boy might be, he'd never quite measure up to my Rusty, and that just flat would not have been fair to a new pup. DH grew up with GSD's and after sooooo many years of my hearts desire, I figured it was time for HIS. I had no particular expectations from the breed, but it didn't take long for me to be entralled with gsds. Which is why I now have six of them. I don't show and my dogs don't "work" on a daily basis. But each has an area of expertise that is unique to him/her and each does that job with pride. But, no, they are not herding sheep, sniffing for drugs or bombs, doing protection work....they are basically family pets. But, even as family pets I LOVE the attributes of the gsd and honestly wouldn't want less than what I've got. I watched Theo this morning while we were walking, and thought, yep, this is exactly how this boy is supposed to be acting...walking a little up front on a nice loose lead, checking back with me regularly, circling around to insure that my perimiter is safe....yep, that's a gsd trait and it's quite nice to watch. Going back to the OP, well, yeah, I guess I should claim the title "elitist" as well, because I'm right there with Truley and everyone else who feels as she does. Oh, and I've been involved with rescue and fostering for the past twenty or so years.

chelsea_b

oranges81

but I will say that I am an Elitist.  

I think we should all put "I am an Elitist" in our signatures. LOL!

 

LOL! Agreed! Maybe I can find a banner online with some fancy pictures and writing that says that! 

"Good! Then the shelters and rescues will be happy to see you when you come in..."

If I was interested in pitti mixes or lab mixes I would defiantly get one there but that seems to be the most prevalent types of dogs at the local pound and I do not desire either.

"...and the reputable breeder will have a nice puppy for you to purchase should you decide you want a purebred puppy."

The question is who determines what constitutes a "reputable breeder"?  In my opinion the breeder that I got my current puppy from was "reputable" otherwise I would not have done business with him.  Yet he would not have met the standard for "reputable" that others on this site have stated.

"The reputable breeder selects for good adherence to a standard IN ADDITION to all the things you mentioned. The two are not as you seem to think, mutually exclusive nor ONLY to be found in a BYB breeding. I am wondering if you'd agree with that?"

Never said that they were mutually exclusive!  But if the breeding selection criteria is primarily for a "show dog" then the breed "standard" may take priority over traits that are more desirable in a "pet".  

 "MOST people choosing a purebred animal choose such because of the inherent TRAITS and the predictability of those traits. "

Too often people choosing a purebred dog do so because they like the looks of it and they have no clue as to the "inherent traits" that the breed may have!  Other times people choose a purebred dog because of the perceived "status" they believe the dog will give them.  Again they have little or no knowledge of the "inherent traits" of the breed.  This often explains why these purebred dogs end up in the shelters! 

When I had Akitas I was approached daily by folks that had one that did not "look like mine"....they had BYB dogs that were weedy or large of ear or thin of bone. Upon seeing a well bred example they realized what they'd actually given up...to own an Akita "at a bargain price' or 'a convenient time".

My last GSD was from what many posting here would call a BYB yet he was a beautiful example of his breed and many GSD owners and breeders that saw him commented on how fine an example he was, so your anecdote means little.

"Your post makes it seem like reputable breeders, do not produce pet dogs?"

Nope I did not say that!

"I guess I don't understand why a reputable breeder...ISN'T a viable option along with a shelter or rescue if someone "just wants a pet". Why would a BYB be above those former...choice wise?"

I did not say or imply that a "reputable" breeder is not an option nor did I say that a shelter or a rescue are not options.  In fact it seems to me that the only ones that wants to limit the "options" available to those seeking a pet is those of you "elitists" that seem to want to condemn what you refer to as BYB!

"ETA: Is it just about a "bargain" or "a dog available when *I* want one? Your thoughts Mark?"

Both price and availability are of course legitimate concerns when one is seeking a pet!

 

Mark

  

 

BCMixs

rwbeagles

Marklf

Although I understand the views of many of you "elitist" that post here I think that you are harming your own cause.   Most people that own and care for dogs do not need nor desire "show quality" dogs!  We want PETS!!! 

Good! Then the shelters and rescues will be happy to see you when you come in...and the reputable breeder will have a nice puppy for you to purchase should you decide you want a purebred puppy.

 

Yes! Yes!  And I just wanted to add that if someone is in love with a particular breed (like I am now with BCs) and wants a "pet" the breed rescues would LOVE to talk to you and place a wonderful pet "whatever" (BC, GSD, etc.) in your home.  Going to a breeder or breeding  yourself is not the only (or best) way to get a pet for your family or to provide pets for others.  I'd rather save a life already in the world than create a new one.

 I have not seen anyone claim that rescues or shelters should not be options for those seeking a pet!  But those should not be the only options nor should those options be shoved down the throats of those that chose to get their pets elswhere!

Mark

oranges81

chelsea_b

oranges81

but I will say that I am an Elitist.  

I think we should all put "I am an Elitist" in our signatures. LOL!

 

LOL! Agreed! Maybe I can find a banner online with some fancy pictures and writing that says that! 

 

I guess this isn't exactly what you had in mind, huh?    

 

 

I'll just link to this one, 'cuz it'll get me in trouble.  LOL! 

I made a little quick one on an earlier page... feel free to steal it. :P