Coyote Attack

FourIsCompany

Were these possums (and cats and the pet parrot) predators threatening the safety of you or your dogs???? Of course a person doesn't feel pride simply because their dog kills another animal! But if there's a threat to you or your loved ones and a dog comes in and neutralizes that threat, then I think it's possible you may just feel a little pride along with the sorrow for the death of an animal. This is a perfectly natural feeling.

Could be but that doesn't matter.  I know for sure I am neutral, having no pride but that does not mean ashamed as you would charactize it.  I don't know and for sure you don't know what is really driving the animals or what they are thinking. You can only state what your own feelings are and I see no reason to shoot down how others feel.   Anything is possible but for sure after a bad experience that got out of control, the lesson learned is to prepare for it to happen again, and it may very well will happen again.  There are many things one can do but I sure would work on that 1% deficiency in recall and I would question is it truly 1%.

mudpuppy

I am not proud of him leaping twenty feet up a tree to grab a terrified raccon and kill it.

Wait a minute, its not that simple to kill a racoon.  Racoons are fierce fighters.  I hope your dog has not learned that all racoons are placid.

I see DPU's point about being neutral. There is not a thing wrong with feeling that way. Or feeling pride that your dog will protect you, even if you are saddened by what happened.

- - - 

I guess it all depends on the dogs, but my dogs wouldn't see a coyote as prey. A coyote on our property = threat. Which it is. We have cats, a small child, and when Ivan was a little puppy I had a coyote try and eat him in my yard. I learned to never let a puppy out to potty after dusk without an escort.

If Sasha sees a coyote out on a walk (and we do sometimes) she doesn't react. Neither do the coyotes. They just watch, calmly. But if a wild animal enters our yard, Sasha protects. She feels like the possum nesting in the neighbor's yard is a threat, too. It growls at her through the fence, she growls back. Sasha was only a pup herself, but she held off the coyote that was after Ivan. That gave me time to get out and see what the ferocious barking was about. 

Possums and raccoons are a funny grey area, in the prey vs. threat area. They aren't going to eat your cats, but they are serious business and won't always back down from a dog. I won't be surprised if Eko grows up to think of them as challenging prey, while for Sasha they will always be big bad meanies. Her prey drive is weak.
 

mudpuppy

but they weren't protecting.

What makes you think they weren't protecting? IMO, if a dog sees an animal as a threat, they go into protection mode. Especially breeds such as pit bulls and German Shepherds. I would HOPE my dogs would protect themselves and me from such a threat.

Coyote Attacks Dog 

Coyotes on the Prowl for Cats and Dogs 

Dog Recovers After Coyote Attack 

Coyote Attacks Dog Near Roselle 

Google it. There are plenty of stories out there of how coyotes are changing, becoming more aggressive, entering people's yards and threatening their pets and children.

mudpuppy

They were hunting a prey animal and caught it.

The coyote is a predator. This isn't a bunny we're talking about here. And they didn't hunt the thing, it entered their yard. If a thief came into my house looking for something to steal and my dogs went for him, are you going to say they "hunted him down"? I just don't get that.

The Truth about Predators 

Predators are wild animals that hunt, or prey on, other animals for their own food. Wolves, mountain lions, hawks and ferrets are all predators. Because these animals are meat eaters, they are also called carnivores ("carne" means "meat" in Latin). Some predators, such as coyotes and bears, are also scavengers, meaning they will eat the carcasses of animals that they didn't hunt themselves.

I live in the Southwest and have for nearly 30 years. I know coyotes. I hear them all the time. I fear them. They aren't some nice little furry doggy-like animal. They are wild, opportunistic, aggressive, dangerous, carnivorous predators whose population is steadily increasing and who will eat whatever they can get their teeth on. I don't dislike them, but if one comes into my yard, I'm going to be proud of my dogs for taking it out instead of letting it kill them. Because it would if given the opportunity.

Omg, what a scary thing to happen. I've been near coyotes, and they have taken small dogs from pet owners in a dog park. Even once lured a dog into the bush only to kill it.

I wish them a quick recovery! And give some them kisses for me.

Years ago, when I let my dog out to pee, she was grabbed by a coyote and carried off. I can't explain it, but I had a feeling there was something wrong, had gone outside and called her name. I heard her strangled cries, grabbed a flashlight and ran towards the sound. I found her laying in the road as if dead. There was siliva slime and four punctures in her neck. I thought she was dead, but when I brought her home she snapped out of it and came back fighting. It took awhile for her to figure out where she was.

She recovered completely, we were lucky.

Am I angry with the coyote? No. But I would have killed it myself to protect my dog.

A few years back, a raccoon got my ducks. They were still alive when I got to them, but a real mess and suffering. I didn't hesitate to put them out of their misery and save my tears for later. After I took the duck's bodies away and went into the house, the wet tracks on my deck showed that the raccoon followed me right up onto the porch.

Am I angry with the raccoon? No. I had a pet one as a kid and the raccoon was only doing what raccoons do. My fault for not making sure my ducks were in a more secure area.

I don't like to see any animal suffer. Nature is what it is, and two dogs did what they did in the moment.

Fingers crossed that the coyote did not have rabies.

Aurora, I think you should be proud of yourself and your dogs.

malnmutt

mudpuppy

I doubt it was sick. The coyotes around here are totally unfraid of people OR dogs. They are huge, size of a big GSD. We had one really scarey incident at the barn- one coyote strutted around in broad daylight attracting all of the people and dogs to chase it while another one snuck around back and made off with one of the barn cats. The coyote had its own agenda, thought it could handle the dogs, and mis-calculated. I've never heard of a coyote attacking a person, though.

 

 Yes yes yes!

I'm in coyote country too. Coyotes are very bold. They hunt in packs, too. Did you know that? I thought they were loners, but they aren't. My dog who is about 16" at the withers was chased by not one, not two, but about SEVEN coyotes. She got to me first but we had a stand off over my dog. They weren't leaving just because I was there. They waited until I had my dogs leashed and then they left.

 They absolutely positively will go into a back yard and kill and eat a dog. It happened to a dear friend of mine. My other friend had her sixty pound dog surrounded by coyotes in the day time and had to beat them off and had to chase them them off of a big fat lab whose owner wasn't paying attention.

 I have also heard of coyotes luring dogs out of yard through chase only to have a pack waiting to tear them apart.  Dogs make great prey. They're generally kind of stupid about that sort of thing and think "hey! friends!" and get eaten.

 It's sad that the coyote died and it's sad that the dogs were injured but I can promise you, the coyotes intentions were not to go in the backyard to scavenge garbage or make friends--he thought it would be an easy meal and made a huge mistake. If you think he couldn't smell the two dogs well, you don't understand how canines work very well.


 

Native people call the coyote "trickster" for a reason.  These are extremely efficient killers, and very intelligent and adaptable animals, opportunistic in their hunting habits.  While it isn't so usual here for them to hunt in large groups of 6-7, it does happen in some areas, and mostly in fall when the adults are teaching juveniles to hunt.  They do not have to be sick to be seen during the day.  Nor do they have to be sick to think that a dog will make a tasty meal.  They don't know a Pit Bull from a Papillon just from the smell, so they could easily have made the mistake that malnmutt suggests.  And, in our area they have gone after goats, dogs, cats, and other prey - the next block over from me they attacked an old horse once. In one town in Massachusetts, a coyote did go after a small child (thankfully was driven off).  I have been "tracked" by coyotes when walking with my hound, and I carry a walking stick and Spray Shield.  One forum member had her 3 month old Australian Shepherd pup killed while at the end of a leash that she was holding!  Coyotes are a wonderful animal, but not one that we should encourage into our yards.  If you put up fencing in coyote country, to keep them from getting at your dogs, it needs to be 6 feet high, 3 feet deep, and have a coyote roller at the top.  Barring that, you need to supervise your dogs at all times when they are outdoors, and have a "weapon" handy just in case.  We can live peacefully with predators around us, but it pays to know accurate information about their habits.  It's clear to me that some people on this board believe hype, or the neighbors, but have not visited their state's official wildlife pages on the web or spoken to anyone at the natural history museum;-))

One thing to consider, AuroraLove, should be whether the innate desire for Pits to fight other canines has now been permanently triggered in both the dogs.  Often, we see that they are fine until a "dog" starts something - then the Pit finishes it, which can have implications for future behavior. That remains to be seen, but it would be prudent to proceed cautiously with any contact between these dogs and other dogs now - if anything does happen, they are liable to be labeled dangerous, with all the legal ramifications thereof.   Do be careful, even to the point of muzzles.  And, best wishes to both dogs for healing.  They were just acting naturally, nothing to be ashamed of, just unfortunate.  And, I, for one, am not sorry you posted about the ordeal.  It provides a forum for learning more about coyotes, dogs, and how to prevent, react to, or learn from these kinds of situations.  For that you certainly have nothing to be ashamed of.  To have bitten so that the animal's "entrails were hanging out" means that your dogs intended to kill the animal, so they probably felt extremely threatened, as in fearing death themselves.  When predatory drift takes over, you have about 3 seconds in which to call the dog off - after that, it's pretty much impossible except in a very highly trained dog, and even then if often fails.  Kellope may not have a high prey drive breed, or may not have experienced this behavior first hand.  It's one thing to call your dog off a boring biscuit, it's another to call him off a predator that has lunged for his throat or is approaching a member of his social group.  Personally, I did not see anything in the OP that suggested AuroraLove did anything any differently than most reasonable average adults would have done in that circumstance.  Consider the adrenalin, and the fear at having your dogs in that situation - and think that maybe her calls to them might have worked if she were not so upset.  Your voice can sound different to your dog when that happens, and they will not respond to the "unfamiliar" words.  I've seen a Border Collie not recognize his commands when delivered via microphone, but when the handler took the mic away, and said "That'll Do", that's all it took.  So, if you aren't very sure how your own dogs would react in this circumstance, best to keep the slings and arrows in your quiver.

Here is an interesting read, I know the source is not the greatest, but I was surprised by a few things and learned a couple of things as well. Pay special attention to Attack on Humans and Pet predation. I learned that coyotes were/are and can be daytime hunters, but adapted more to evening due to humans. They can clear an 8 foot fence, some have been known to get over 14 feet of fencing, and they can run 40 mph.

http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Coyote

I have no doubt in my mind that if this had been in my yard Kord would have done the same thing, while his recall is good, his prey drive is so high and he is still bold and brash enough to think it great fun. He is a family pet first and foremost, but it also eases my mind to know that people tend to avoid my yard and home because of him. JPQ does not need to know that once your in the house and deemed safe, he turns into a puddle of mush.

The OP and her dogs did what was best at the time, there is no one here that could convince me that they could have handled it another way.

Carla, I loved your post.

And, I liked Carla's post, too, but this line from dyan really struck me:

I'm afraid this will turn into a pitbull conversation. It should not, I know there are other breeds and other dogs that might do the same as these did.

I think that there are a lot of dogs that would do the same.  I'd like to think that if, for some reason, I was out of the picture, my dogs would fight for their lives, or to protect one another. (Fergie, you are excused.  Nineteen year old Yorkies can sit back and supervise from inside the house.)

spiritdogs

And, I liked Carla's post, too.....

I don't because it seems to have a 'Que, Sera Sera" tone to it and there is no mention of precautions or safety initatives, plus it is judgemental at a very personal level.  If you have coyotes where you live, then be prepared to have encounters. 

Thank you all for your support and consideration. Spiritdogs-FourisCompany, thanks so much for trying to help people understand the threat of coyotes and how shocked my dogs and I were. I swear for one moment Rory thought it was play time, she was the last to enter the yard and was caught very off guard. But like i said, she was much happier last night when I got home, still was shy of hard food and both were sensitive to outside noises. They both checked the backyard perimiter like scotland yard guards but I'm sure thats normal. Primo has been extremely clingy which is very out of charachter for him. We cuddeled up tight on the couch all night and I couldnt help but cry listening to Rory's ragged breathing and by the shear shock of the whole incident. It made me sad to think some people want to portray my babies as monsters but I know that if they cant understand the bond and love between us then they are just wrong and know nothing of the love between my dogs and I. I keep seeing Rory's head snap in my direction when I called her name, leaving her vulnerable to the huge bite the coyote inflicted on her face. I love my pups and thats all that matters.

If I can just interrupt the people who think they know what happened and are making assumptions I would like to clarify some things......

I DID check the yard (which is scary itself) before letting the dogs out. I did not however creep behind the shed where the coyote came out from when I let the dogs out. The shed is infront of the fence the coyote entered and exited from and DH had ALREADY chased the coyote away around midnight which was 8 hours before..

After checking the yard I let Primo out and saw him freeze when he peaked around the shed. The coyote had ample time to jump back over the fence but in his fear and haste he ran around the other side of the shed, Primo and Rory were only barking at this point but his route was headed towards me. I highly doubt he was coming at me with intent but more out of panic. HOWEVER that is when Primo advanced, he used a small amount of judgement and that is what I am proud of.

  I feel extreme sadness for the coyote but if I was hurt or my dogs were killed then I'm not so sure how concerned for the coyote I would be. I hope some of you can understand the difference between a attack and protection and am eager to hear what any of you would have done differntely in the situation

I know that several members here on the forum have had bad experiences with this breed and I cant thank you enough for refraining from making it about Pit Bulls. I wont go into the training, socialization and obediance of my dogs because most of you on here already know I strive to set a grade-A example of the breed with my dogs. I cant help but think that the negative feedback would be considerably fewer if I owned a differet breed of dog but I cant change the bias, breedist views of strangers and thankfully my heart is full and knowledgable of ALL gods creatures.

spiritdogs

I think that there are a lot of dogs that would do the same.  I'd like to think that if, for some reason, I was out of the picture, my dogs would fight for their lives, or to protect one another.

That is my thinking.....if a Coyote decided to jump our fence.....it would not be a favorable situation for the Coyote......

spiritdogs

I think that there are a lot of dogs that would do the same.  I'd like to think that if, for some reason, I was out of the picture, my dogs would fight for their lives, or to protect one another.

That was the jist of my post, that I was able to successfully call off 3 Great Danes, a Hound, a retriever mix, and a Pittie mix.  When I was not there, the dogs were in safety mode or in prey mode. 

And thank you for pointing out in your post some of the precautions, safety measures, and sources of education that people who live with coyotes should be aware of.  You can't change what has happened but you sure can influence what is going to happen next time, and there will be a next time.