Our dogs eat other animals

Probably why I'm not a cat person.

I do agree that dogs with a prey drive need to be contained. I just wanted to point out that most cannot be trained not to kill. Only managed.[]

Also, I'm NOT a cat person, but I really don't think its fair to a cat to have to live all of its life inside the same 4 walls.

Cats can be taken on walks just like dogs.
 
I have a friend that adopted a cat after the owner became too disabled with MS to care for the animal.  After this declawed cat got used to his new home, he was allowed to roam.  I expressed disapproval, but it was ignored.
 
One day this very sweet, young cat didn't come home.  I can only hope that someone kept him, but a declawed cat is so defenseless, so ...

I refused to have cat litter, or keep cats inside. My childhood cat died at 7 (crushed by neighbor's electric garage door), but I always thought a short free life was better than a long captive one.

As a young adult I had outdoor cats who were sadly declawed as kitties (due to a stupid BF with a waterbed []). They could climb trees very well and the boy was the neighborhood bully cat, he was just a bad*ss. They lived to 13 and 14 years old.

I plan to keep Hester indoors all her life, except I do want to build her a nice outdoor cat run. Growing up we had a new cat almost every year because something would happen to the old one.

Everyone behaved politely. The op was wondering whether or not to euthanize because the dogs were doing what comes naturally. Even the cheapest book you can find will point out that Sibes do not do well with cats, unless (my own two cents) they are socialized earlier and trained often. And keep the cat indoors. Perhaps they received the answer they were looking for.
 

Yes Ron, everyone has behaved.  I think that the OP didn't expect to find such resistence to keeping his dogs outside.
 
Now, as for the cats....thats a whole 'nuther topic.  And way off this topic.

CoCo's 12 whole pound is very prey-driven as well...especially to things like chipmunks and squirrels, and birds.   Luckily she's never killed any...but it doesnt mean she hasnt tried.
 
I have parrots at home, and while she's fine with them inside, if they're outside, that's a different story.... she thinks they're animated toys.  I will not trust her while they are not in their cage.

ORIGINAL: sallya

The statistics on cats that are outdoors are sad. They live long lives inside. Of course they can walk outside, but then back inside. Cats are killed by dogs, cars, people, other animals etc.when they are not kept inside. It need not happen and they eat and hunt birds that many of us feed and go to the bathroom in other people's yards. There are many reasons to keep kitties inside.

Dogs that kill animals and pets need to be kept secure in a good fence and inside. It is not fair to other animals. I have been attacked twice on walks with my dog and it is horrible.

I'm sorry you've been attacked by other dogs on your walks. Clearly it's unfair to you because all you want to do is walk your beautiful shih tzu on her leash. I hate owners who allow their dogs off leash. Because people like me work so hard to make sure that my dog DOES NOT get off leash because I know her prey drive and dog aggression issues.
It's weird. You walk your dog responsibly on a leash and get attacked by bigger, off leash dogs. I walk my bigger dog on leash, and get rushed by my neighbors off leash shih tzu.
Now, imagine, if you were my neighbor and your off leash shih tzu rushed up to my on leash, dog aggressive dog and my dog attacked your off leash shih tzu, what would you think of my dog for attacking your off leash shih tzu? This is just a made up situation, but I want to know what you'd think.

You cannot train prey-drive out of a dog. That's like trying to train a child with autism, not to act like they have autism.
Like others say, dogs with prey drive CAN BE managed. But they require responsible owners.

This may be just my reading into things, but when they said they moved to the country and got dogs that aren't bad with people but brokedown their livestock fence, its sounded to me like the dogs themselves were not contained- not in a fence.

So allow me this tirade; people move to the boonies and let their dogs run wild because they think somehow what is unacceptable behavior in town is okay in the boonies. Why? People take walks in the woods, children play outside, people have livestock - why think that these people are more likely to accept your dog running wild? And then you have the added bonus of the boonie code SSS -shoot, shovel and shut up. Where, in urban areas your loose dog might be reported to animal control, in many rural areas if he got into trouble with people or livestock he'd just disappear.

Just saying , just in case the OP is lurking.
Paula - boonie living.

Some dogs are fine loose in the country. Some aren't. An example: My friend has 4 dogs, two huskies, a huskylabwolf cross, and a GSD. The huskies have to be tied, seperately so they can't get tangled and the lines have to be inspected often for any signs of destruction. The huskylabwolf could be left outside off leash for a week and never leave the yard AND she would police the other dogs. The GSD (who was abused as a puppy, poorly bred, and thus not all there so to speak) would probably go for a run, hit a tree and forget from which direction she came. She also has severe male dog agression alotting for the two huskies. One of the huskies is Crusher's brother and killed a fox at 6 months old. In any event the boys stay outside and the girls inside when she is not home.

My sister lives in the country where there are no neighbors for miles. If someone is walking by her house, they are trespassing. My Pint(who is really my sister's dog) has never been tied up aside from when she went into heat as a young dog. She does not leave the yard and has trained all of the other dogs that have resided there not to do so either. Mind you she is a labhusky with the lab very dominant in her. I would not leave either of my dogs outside uncontained.

The OP's dogs obviously weren't, but maybe any dogs they had previous to this were and they just assumed all dogs in the country would be. My sister thinks that if I brought my dogs out to her house we could just leave them loose outside all the time. If I was out there fine, but not if I went inside. As soon as they were comfortable in the area they'd be gone.

I lived out in the country when we first got Conrad, and everyone let their dogs run (it was a residential and agricultural area, no livestock farming to speak of). I'm not saying that in the "and that's why it is okay" way, just a fact, they did. And they did in circumstances that even back then, before I really knew all that much about responsible dog ownership, struck me as really inexcusable. Intact dogs running around? Not excusable as far as I'm concerned. And dogs with no ID tags whatsoever or even collars running around? Also not excusable. We were like the anal retentive dog owners of the peninsula we lived on because Conrad had about 300 forms of ID, was neutered, and we only let him run around when we were home and we tended to call him back to the house at pretty regular intervals. Would I do the same thing now? No, never. But even when I was behaving in a way that I now find unacceptable, even then we were definately the exception to the rule.


Anyway, as has been established, dogs are predators. They kill things. Marlowe has managed to kill two squirrels and a bird while on a 4 foot leash being walked through an urban area. Conrad preferred to scavange for already killed gross things when we lived in the country but that didn't keep him from also racking up a fairly long list of death: groundhogs, rabbits, etc... Dogs have absolutely no idea that there's a distinction between a squirrel and a cat, between a deer and a goat. Our old dog Ananda was once camping with us on a friend's property when their neighbors came over with their pet goat not on a leash and the chase was on and these people acted like our dog was demonspawn because he chased and tackled their goat (no goats were actually harmed--after the take-down we grabbed Ananda and the goat people took their goat back home, traumatized but none the worse for wear). WHO BRINGS A GOAT TO A PARTY!?!? Dog=predator, goat=prey, so how about making sure there are no dogs around before you saunter over with your goat, huh?

Basically what I'm saying here is get a fence because that is the only thing that will keep a prey-driven dog from hunting. Your disapproval does not matter one whit to a dog's prey drive.

whoops double post sorry!

Moderator here,
This thread needs to stay OT...
And also looks like the OP is gone at this point. Perhaps a new thread discussing country dogs vs city dog husbandry and common practices, might be more useful?
Just an idea.

ORIGINAL: janet_rose

Also, I'm NOT a cat person, but I really don't think its fair to a cat to have to live all of its life inside the same 4 walls.

Cats can be taken on walks just like dogs.
 

I've got a neighbor that has two cats.  One goes out on regular walks with him-on lead.  She's almost got heel down pat as well.  The guy has amazing patience though, but his other cat is a bit too uppity to have a lead and collar, so she doesn't go out. 

It can be done.

Basically what I'm saying here is get a fence because that is the only thing that will keep a prey-driven dog from hunting.

 
in most places if a wandering dog bothers someone else's livestock the dog is shot on the spot. People who live in the country and care about their dogs build good sturdy fences.