Child vaccinations - do you or don't you?

g33

All the research - and this is even off the CDC website - states that for the amount of mercury that's in some of these vaccines, a baby would need to weigh 275 lbs for the mercury dose to be considered "safe". Yet we don't question injecting this stuff into our kids. Mercury is a proven neurotoxin so who knows what issues can crop up if its given to a child at two months of age. Yes, some of the vaccines out there DO still have Thimerisol in them. DTaP is new compared to the old DTP which had some problems, and now we don't give oral polio anymore because some folks actually did contract the disease from the oral version.  

275 pounds???? Could you link to that please?

"Mercury" Sounds like just one thing doesn't it??????   It is really more of a group where some things are more deadly than others. Some mercury can kill you just by breathing it in---like elemental mercury. 

Meanwhile, "Thimerosal contains 49.6% mercury by weight and is metabolized to ethylmercury and thiosalicylate." Neither of those things is the one of the more commonly worried about mercuries. Am I saying "go ahead and eat a pound of the stuff?" No, I am saying that there is more to this than saying the word "mercury".

Do you wear contacts? Use nasal spray? You may have been getting a form of mercury in your eyes or up your nose. Check it out:

http://www.fda.gov/cder/fdama/mercury300.htm  

As for the comments about gardisil and being choosy about sex partners. Sheesh. Okay, you are a virgin until you are married but your husband had sex with his first love at age 17...so you get cancer and die. Hmmmm. Concerned about long term problems because it is new---I see that---other arugments against the vaccine such as "she should be chaste anyways" don't really work for me. I believe in chastity---but a future spouse may NOT have believed in it. I knew a girl at 19 who had cervical cancer. 'nuff on that.

As for formaldyhyde---did you know that all humans have small detectable amounts of it in their systems to begin with? That we use it somehow to metabolize foods? The amount left in the vaccines is pretty tiny and less than what he routinely have in our bodies---even our baby's body.

You are right that vaccines don't last forever---and many are gone by young adulthood. If you can give your kid chickenpox as a child, good luck. If your adult child gets chickenpox as an adult it can be very unpleasant---even deadly.

 plus I get annual paps so I'd know if something was wrong. 

 PAP smears are almost useless, honestly..... They take a small piece of tissue from one single place, and really do not tell you anything unless you have a blatant infection or neoplastic condition - ie if the PAP smear shows something, its is likely well-established. I will try and find the statistic (it was told to me by a fellow I worked with over the summer who studies HPV and cervical cancer at Wake Forest) but it was something around 50-60% of early-grade lesions and infections are missed by PAP smears. So don't rely too much on them. Get them yes, but they aren't the most reliable.

 As a side note, he also had some interesting things to say about the vaccine --- There are many, many HPV strains, and the vaccine targets the top 4 which cause the majority of lesions. 20% of cervical cancers are caused by strains that are not targeted by the vaccine. Thats 1 in 5. wow.

Also HPVs, both in humans and other species, have shown themselves to be EXTREMELY mutable - they can adapt to anything, very quickly, change pathogenicity profiles within a few years. So while this vaccine is nice, it is BY NO MEANS the end of cervical cancer. :(

I'm not suggesting you believe some random website when it tells you giving your kid a DTP shot will kill them or something, but I do like to read as much as I can (and yeah, that means crappy, non-cited websites as well as medical papers, the CDC and FDA sites, etc.) and form my own opinions on things as important as childhood vaccinations. But maybe I'm just better at filtering BS and using common sense than most people? I don't believe anything unless it makes sense to ME. I don't care if it makes sense to you, my doctor, your doctor, a vet, some crackpot on the internet...if it doesn't make sense to me, I ain't buying it. It doesn't make sense to me that we inject babies with almost 30 separate shots before they reach their second birthday, without even questioning it. If it makes sense to you, or feels fine, then sure, do it. But to not even think about it at all? That doesn't compute with me...

Just my opinion...

I've only really skimmed, but sorry, the data to support the idea that autism is caused by vaccines just isn't there. In fact, the data says it isn't

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/11/AR2007101101597.html

 

On September 27, 2007 the New England Journal of Medicine will publish a study entitled, "Early Thimerosal Exposure and Neuropsychological Outcomes at 7 to 10 Years." 

Obviously, this has been published now

 From the abstract

Results Among the 42 neuropsychological outcomes, we detected only a few significant associations with exposure to mercury from thimerosal. The detected associations were small and almost equally divided between positive and negative effects. Higher prenatal mercury exposure was associated with better performance on one measure of language and poorer performance on one measure of attention and executive functioning. Increasing levels of mercury exposure from birth to 7 months were associated with better performance on one measure of fine motor coordination and on one measure of attention and executive functioning. Increasing mercury exposure from birth to 28 days was associated with poorer performance on one measure of speech articulation and better performance on one measure of fine motor coordination.

 

And this will be it for me for now...

In the study that started the vaccines and autism scare, which was done by Andrew Wakefield, Wakefield failed to do the proper controls. The study has since been discredited, but unfortunately for the children who will die  or contract an illness that could have been prevented, the discrediting of the study didn't get the press of the original study. I presume as well that those who were looking for something to blame didn't/don't want to give something up.

 
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2007/06/the_autism_omnibus_the_difference_betwee.php
 

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on whether autism is caused by vaccines, but what do you think the reason for the recent surge in autism diagnoses is? Just more awareness about it? Just curious..

Absolutely. Have you seen now they have a website with VIDEO's linking to "autism linked" behaviors and normal ones so parents can diagnose their kids, oh of course they don't intend it to be diagnosed that way but that's what parents will do.

It's kinda scary...Yahoo! had a story on about it this a.m.

ETA: You mightn't be old like me lol...but not all that long ago kids in Kindergarten-elemntary school, that didn't speak to other kids or the teacher much...didn't make eye contact...were called "shy".....what would they be today? Those that bit or threw tantrums were "spirited"...what are they now? Kids who zoned out, and always had to be "zapped" via fingersnap, back into "now" were called "day-dreamers" or "head in the clouds". This doesn't take any validity away from diagnoses made today...but it does show that people weren't always as concerned as they are now about things like the above...and that's a shame for some kids back then that perhaps did have some issues and need some help.

 Just a few fyi's on the guardasil vax:

- it's been studied in the field w/ high risk women for about 10 years already with few if any adverse reactions longterm - it's not 50 yrs, but enough to make me feel better about getting it.

- it technically only covers 4 strains of the viruses, but there has been some study that shows it may protect against an additional 9 that are closely related

I got the series via my college health center last year.  I'm marrying the 2nd guy I've dated and the first one I was anywhere near "intimate" with.  I got the vaccine because technically I'm still a virgin and I want as much protection as I can from cancer - my fiance had several partners before me, and there are no outward symptoms of HPV in guys, I'm not even sure they can test for it.  I talked to my gynecologist about the vaccine and she says even if you only ever have one partner, its a good idea to get it. 

When I got it, I made sure I didn't need boosters for other vaccines at the same time so I wouldn't have to double up.  I delayed my flu vaccine for a few weeks after one booster of the guardasil vax as well. 

chelsea_b

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on whether autism is caused by vaccines, but what do you think the reason for the recent surge in autism diagnoses is? Just more awareness about it? Just curious..

IMO honestly, yes.  Years ago the only children you heard of having autism were those that were severely challenged and/or disturbed.   Now it seems they have broadened the definition.  This isn't a bad thing, but something you have to think of when you are evaluating the whole concept.

I compare the increase similar to the increase ADD and ADHD children.  When I was young no one even heard of this, now it seems everyone's child has one or the other or both.  Why is that?  Why does it seem that so many children are being drugged so they act acceptable.  I know I am riding both sides of the fence here, but I think America is over medicating everyone especially their children and that is what is causing problems.  IMO some vaccines are necessary, and people should look to other things that are causing medical problems with their children, the environment they live in, the crap food they feed them (not saying anyone here doesn't feed their children healthy food), the other toxins they expose them to, etc. etc. 

stardog85

- it's been studied in the field w/ high risk women for about 10 years already with few if any adverse reactions longterm - it's not 50 yrs, but enough to make me feel better about getting it.

I am not worried about what it will do to me or even Riley.  I am worried about what it will do to Riley's ability or her children's ability to have children.  That's what scares me. 

Wow. I could go on and on about overmedication of kids. Because it honestly makes things much harder for those of us who legitimately have things like learning disorders, etc....I have ADD. Without my medication, I literally cannot function in an academic environment - I sure as hell couldnt have gotten into vet school without it. I don't even think I could have graudated college. But every time I say ADD...people give me this look like oh...."you just don't want to concentrate"...or, "ok, so you have a short attention span"....I think we overmedicated and now people are getting jaded, just like how we have overvaccinated our pets and now people are getting jaded.

 With autism, it is such a foggy field to begin with, I am glad they actually broadened the definition. A friend of mine is high-functioning autistic/hyperlexic, which wouldnt have even fit under the old definitions - she is insanely smart, was reading by one year of age , no "slowness" in developing motor skills -in contrast, she was years ahead of the game - etc...but, simply cannot socially interact (well, could not when she was younger...through years and years of therapy and help shge has gotten better) because she cannot relate to or understand others. She couldn't have been diagnosed under the old standards and might never have gotten help, and her smarts would have gone to waste.

A friend of mine got pertussis and I honestly would NOT want my child to get it. Especially since it took them FOREVER to diagnose it. She didn't feel 100% for over a year. And I think she still has episodes where things set her off and she wheezes and its been over 3 years since she had it.

I most definitely am vaccinating Meri. Though the shots they get around their toddler years I may stretch out instead of having them all at once. Besides, I have a weakened immune system, so I wouldn't want her getting me sick either.

BTW, vaccines can wear off. If you haven't had them in over 10 years you might want to get titered. That's how my friend got pertussis. And then a few year after that she actually got measles. I think she's one of the unluckiest people I know when it comes to things like this...

Unfortunately we can not send a child to school without current vaccines, period. It's the law in both public and private schools in Alabama, the only way around it is home schooling.

BUT, I was part of a group that went to Central and South America, when I was a teen to give vaccines to folks who other wise would never have them the infant and chid mortality rates were frightening for the unvaccinated. I geuss I'd have to ask, If there was not such excellent health care available would I take the chance? I don't think I would ... some illnesses are forever. I don't vaccinate for random things , only the necessary ones.

Bonita of Bwana

Wow you guys! Great discussion.

Here are the links that some folks asked me for with regard to the mercury and thimerosal comments I made:

My bad, the comment about the baby needing to weight 275 lbs to tolerate the mercury dose in vaccinations did NOT come off a CDC site (I read so many dang sites the past few months), but here is the source: http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/vaccines.htm

"Dr. Hugh Fundenburg, one of the most quoted biologist of our time, says that if an individual has 5 consecutive flu shots his/her chance of developing Alzheimer's Disease is 10 times greater than if they had 1, two or no shots. What it will do to babies given year after year is anyone’s guess and that is exactly what it is, a guess, an experiment for no one knows, for there have been no tests. Clearly no longitudinal study has been made with babies on the effect of giving annual flu shots starting from six months of age. With an already heavy childhood immunization schedule already in place, and with children already carrying increasingly heavy burdens of toxins, including mercury administered through other vaccines, it’s a crap shoot gamble on what will happen to the children under the CDC’s rule with the addition of the flu vaccine that contains thimerosal. Most pediatric flu shots contain 12.5 mcg. of mercury. According to EPA guidelines for ingested (vs. injected) methylmercury (vs. ethylmercury) not likely to cause harm in adults, an infant or young child would need to weigh 275 pounds to receive this injection for it to be considered safe."

List of vaccines containing thimerosal and the corresponding mercury content: http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-thim.htm

List of studies that link autism with MMR vaccine: http://www.thinktwice.com/s_autism.htm

How does vaccination cause autism: http://www.deepdownwellness.com/althealth/autism.html

This quote made me chuckle a bit, but it's really kind of sad:

A recent study conducted by the CDC found that children who were vaccinated (but not fully) tend to come from homes run by poor, unmarried, badly educated mothers who trust their doctors, whereas children who were never vaccinated tend to come from homes where they are well-provided for, with married parents who possess a college degree and do not permit doctors to influence their vaccination decisions. [Fox, Maggie. "Reasons Differ for Unvaccination and Undervaccination of Children." Reuters. July 6, 2004.]

With regard to the Gardasil/HPV comments...have any of you ever had warts? If so then you have HPV. It's just a matter of where you get warts, but if you have had any, you can spread HPV to your sex partner and then they may or may not develop genital warts which may or may not lead to cervical cancer. Yep, the same warts you can pick up on the floor of a public shower are a form of HPV. I asked my OB GYN about this while I was pregnant and this info came from him, he's been practicing since 1969.

Chelsea B - I'm with you, I think it is important to question everything. The only reason the on-call pediatrician at the hospital could give me for vaccinating Shannon against Hep B was, "Well everyone just does it." Uh sorry, not good enough for me.

chelsea_b

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on whether autism is caused by vaccines, but what do you think the reason for the recent surge in autism diagnoses is? Just more awareness about it? Just curious..

Older parent.  I think many individuals are having kids later in life now, which appears to increase in incidence of autism.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-04-02-older-parents-autism_N.htm

The only reason the on-call pediatrician at the hospital could give me for vaccinating Shannon against Hep B was, "Well everyone just does it." Uh sorry, not good enough for me.

 Rather than a rushed on call pedi, why not have a real discussion with your primary care physician?  And in your first post you mentioned your chiropracter, immunization data is not his specialty.

Info you have collected would be best run past your primary. If you do not have one(a primary care physician), get one.  Baseline data for you babies is important, even if you still opt out on immunizations.