Dog Community

Bugsy goes goose hunting - help! (long)

Posted : 1/31/2007 9:27:45 PM

I took Bugsy to the lake today (650 acre lake with some surrounding land - its a mile from our house) and had a blast, but am worried about how to deal with a dog with such a strong prey drive.
First I took him out to some fields and had him fetching on a drag line. Despite loving fetch and loving treats he was constantly distracted by his need to sniff so it took a while before I felt brave enough to take off the drag line and let him run. We did that for a while but he was obviously getting more and more into sniffing so the line went back on.
We walked a while, the whole time he was sniffing and his energy was elevating. I'm sure he had no idea I was there any more as he was completely focused on sniffing, despite my getting him to touch my hand or heel - he just breaks off for a millisecond and he right back to where he was.
I then took him down to the lake and there were about 25 geese on the beach and just in the water. He went into full point, super still, and then he went - hard and fast. I grabbed the line which blistered my hand [sm=angry.gif] and then dropped it to save some skin. He went flying into the water ( it was about 25* out and the water was very cold and he has a very thin single coat!) and was *crazed* for some goose.
I did get him to come (when he was ready) but what do you do with a dog with such an intense hunting drive?
I'm sure that for about 85% of the time we were there he was not aware that his human was there.
How do you get in to their world?
I mean he loves his food but when you try to get his attention with a treat when he's 'on' he actually pushes your hand away and gives you a look like leave me alone I'm concentrating!
I have no experience with a dog with such a strong need to work and certainly not with a dog that thinks so much ( he seemingly prioritizes). You can actually watch him make the decision not to come, that whatever has his attention is more important than getting the treat/praise from his humans.
I want to be clear that this isn't his normal behavior - only when he is 'on'
How do you break the trance or refocus his attention?
I have this fantasy that I may some day be able to walk with him off lead but today just reinforces that its a fantasy.
Bugsy is 95lbs of muscle, nearly 18 mos old mutt (dane &?)
my good friend who is very experienced with dogs has said from the get go that he thinks too much and she has never seen a dog that was so 'on'. She has had goldens all her life though [

]

thanks in advance for any help
Karen

houndlove

Posted : 1/31/2007 10:56:42 PM

What do I do? I don't take him off-leash anywhere where there isn't a fence, and definately not anywhere where there's abundant wildlife paired with no fence. When he's on the 30 foot line I don't really let him drag it, I hold onto it the whole time. I may let him drag it a couple feet if he's chasing a ball, but as soon as I catch up I pick it up.

Coonhunters put radio collars on their hounds so they can find them again after the hunt because they don't stop working. Most people with working bird dogs use an e-collar at some point. It just kind of comes with the territory. There's a reason Tri-Tronics sponsers nite hunt trials and field trials.

One thing that I'm working on right now though is training an emergency whistle recall (with an actual physical whistle). It's a loud noise that can hopefully break through that zone they get in when they are in hard prey drive. But my goal is to never really have to use it becasue I don't ever plan on having Marlowe off-leash anywhere where there isn't a secure fence.

Raja19

Posted : 1/31/2007 11:21:26 PM

I Can't offer much help, but I know EXACTLY what you are going through. Raja is a Pointer/Great Dane and she does the exact same thing, currently we have a family of stray bunnies living in our front yard. She will not even move from the front door and will scratch and she won't even eat. Maybe I will also get some helpful answers out of this thread!

Valerie Wilson

Posted : 2/1/2007 12:33:20 AM

Hum well I own a hunting dog so I know that having a huge prey drive is part of the package. He too blocks out everything but the prey. I would say that recall is most important thing. Since you said your dog pointed then I would teach him to whoa. That is basically the stay command but it also means stop what ever your doing and stand still. I use the e-collar to reinforce the command but you don't have to. In fact it your dog is sensetive to your moods most of the time I would say it isn't needed. It is just a tool that must be used properly to be effective and not harmful to the dog. There are many different ways to teach the whoa command. You start off with just walking at a heel and making him stop on whoa or any word you want to use. Take a step away and to the side, then back and praise. Once he learns it you can stop him in his tracks. It takes time like everything but it is effective. I usually always run Hawk off lead in the fields for exercise so he comes across many things he would like to chase but when I say whoa he stops dead in his tracks.....most of the time. I admit sometimes he gives chase a bit longer than I would like but thats when I use the collar to remind him that he has to listen to me. Nothing is 100%, however I have successfully stopped him from running a muck. Hope this helps.

kpwlee

Posted : 2/1/2007 8:17:46 AM

Bugsy was supposed to be lab/great dane but we are more and more convinced that he has gs pointer in him and or hound in him. How big is Raja?

kpwlee

Posted : 2/1/2007 8:28:22 AM

thanks for your input - after yesterday I guess I am closer to accepting that off-lead is not in our future. I really wanted to get to that point with him because he loves to run all out and its easy to see him really enjoying wide open spaces. Let me know how the whistle works out

kpwlee

Posted : 2/1/2007 8:31:20 AM

thanks - I will try and work on a 'whoa' command
he loves to open it up (running) and I would love to let him really go
I have been thinking about a remote ecollar as he is already using one in the yard and it is now very effective
Are there any books for training hunting dogs you might recommend?
thanks

brookcove

Posted : 2/1/2007 8:34:20 AM

Did he chase the geese until they left? If so, maybe he has a possible career in goose control! You just have to teach him to come back when you say so. We use the sheep to do that. I forget where you live - can you come up here and give him a try on the sheep? Who knows, maybe he is part BC?[

]

What you do on the come is start with that come when they are ready - if he even LOOKS at you in the water that's good enough - then praise and shhoooosh him back (that's his reward!), then call him again if he seems to hesitate again, then praise and let him back when he makes any move to you, etc.

Obviously you want to practice this when you can let him stay out - or get him a safety flotation vest. Actually a flotation vest is a good idea anyway.

kpwlee

Posted : 2/1/2007 8:52:52 AM

Thanks for the advice Becca - and we're in Raleigh and I would love to bring him up to meet your gang some time (BTW I was so glad to hear that Ben made it back safe & sound). It might prove entertaining [

] I'm not sure what he would make of them but I guarantee we'd be laughing.

And yes the geese went way out into the lake, 2 attempted to come back but were quickly sent packing! He also is very effective at crow removal.

The flotation device is a great idea and one I had been thinking about as he is not a great swimmer. He has only swam a few times and it is ungainly - generally he goes into the water up to his chin. Its another one of those things where you see him processing - hmmm where did the bottom go? The earth no longer exists must stop here

And lastly getting into his brain at all when he's 'on' is very difficult. This is when you can see the prioritizing. But I will certainly keep working on it.

Let me know a few times that it might be good to visit and we'll see if we can work something out

seashell

Posted : 2/1/2007 9:52:08 AM

I have a gsp so I understand the prey drive. I can not let my dog offleash at all, although I am hoping that as we continue to work on her recall that it may change. When she get into her zone it is almost impossible to get her focus to me.
Of course there is now a family of rabbits in my neighbor's yard so going outside for potty takes forever as pointing is more important than pooping. Its hilarious when she tries to pee and point at the same time.

We start obedience class next week so I am hoping that will help, but if I need to I may start using an e-collar next summer if I can find someone around here to teach me how to use it.

probe1957

Posted : 2/1/2007 10:21:16 AM

E-collar, along with someone who knows what they are doing, to show you how to properly use it.

jeano

Posted : 2/1/2007 1:02:38 PM

I'm reading this thread avidly, also hoping for some strategy, though I have a different kind of dog with a different kind of prey drive. I don't know if an e-collar would work for her.

I doubt I'll ever be able to have Sofia off-lead because her hunting style involves running through the woods. And when I say running, I mean LIGHTSPEED. Her coyote heritage probably precludes ever being reliably recalled. I think a dragline is the best we'll ever do....a 100 foot one.

By the way, tie some knots in your dragline. That way you can grab it with little skin burning. Wearing a leather glove can help, too. I think the flotation vest is a very good idea, especially after what rowdyval just went through! (read the "almost lost him" thread.)

Mandy Thompson

Posted : 2/1/2007 5:48:36 PM

I ended up having to get an e-collar for my catahoula/blue heeler, being she has a very high prey and herding drive.
She will not hesitate to chase anything if you ask her too and even when you don't. I got the collar basically to get thru her crazy haze and to listen to me. It has worked wonderfully.
I started on the lowest setting which is just a beep and then if you keep your finger on the button it gives a jolt. So now just using the beep works about 90% of the time.
If you can work Bugsy with sheep and geese and expecially someone thats professional in training. He would have fun and you would learn how to work him in that situation. So it would be a win win situation.
I would love to find a trainer out here that trains dogs to herd, mines a bit difficult being she part header and part heeler, lol, makes for alot of confusion.
And i do feel for you having an 95 pd dog, I had a boxer that was also 95 pds and he could drag me like nothing. I dont consider myself weak or anything either, I have owned alot of big horses and they never have dragged me around like my boxer did when he was after something.
GL to you tho. =)

Raja19

Posted : 2/1/2007 6:05:32 PM

Sorry it took so long to reply...Raja is 85 pounds. Her mom was purebred GSP and her dad was a black and tan coonhound/Great dane. She is very tall and also very strong. I see a resemblance in Bugsy and Raja!

kpwlee

Posted : 2/1/2007 8:02:25 PM

thanks its looking like the e-collar will be our best bet. He uses one for our invisible fence so I will have to carefully research how to train him with the collar outside the yard without confusing him re inside his perimeter.
Bugsy is pure muscle and so fast its insane and I too am not weak but I am no match for him [8D]
It will be great if I can work out a least a trip up to Becca's farm to see what he thinks of sheep