Is being 'part of a pack' not enough?

i would say inclusion in a pack is more about bonding with your dog(s) than training you dog(s). [sm=2cents.gif]

I don't think being "part of a pack" has been any type of motivator for at least two of my three dogs.
 
Tasha really, really doesn't care if she's praised, petted or pleases any living being except herself. She cares if she's allowed off-leash time, if someone plays tug of war with her, chases her, and to a lesser extent, gives her delicious treats.
 
Wolfgang is pretty sure that all of his behavior is irrestible (perhaps he's a wee bit spoiled) and if you want a response from him, you'd better start with a long period of treats every single time, with a gradual fading.
 
Floyd has a different background. I think he usually does things to please or earn a reward such as having his ball thrown, but there's times when he operates out of fear of punishment. It is very sad when that happens.
 
 

Not all dogs are particularily concerned about being in a pack, espeically if that pack includes humans. Marlowe really could care less about any kind of verbal praise I want to give him. He's a "show me the money" kind of dog. He's independent, he doesn't need me. I'd be fighting a losing battle if I tried to train him with the "alpha pack leader" thing because he doesn't feel the need for a pack leader. He doesn't want to be one himself. He can take care of himself.

Him joining our family was the motivation for me to change up how I trained. With Conrad, my praise or scorn was usually sufficient to change his behavior. Just one nasty look from me is enough to send him into paroxysms of appeasement. I tried that stuff with Marlowe and Marlowe just looked at me quizzically and walked away. He's much more cat-like in that regard, as are a lot of sight and scent hounds. These are some of the oldest breeds of domestic dogs on earth and many retain an aloofness to humans that their wild predessors displayed.

how exactly is "being part of a pack" a motivator? I have yet to meet a dog who will work only to please their owner, which I suppose is what you are talking about. Most people I've met who claim their dog works "to please them" have used corrections as their primary mode of training, and their dog is actually working to avoid being punished.
Dogs really have no innate understanding of praise- they don't go around praising each other. You can teach a dog that praise may lead to good stuff (called building a secondary reinforcer), or that praise means they avoided getting punished.
Also, most of the things we ask dogs to do are completely foreign to them and have nothing to do with being dogs or part of a pack. For example, you'll never see a dog try to get another dog to not-pull on leash.  

I'm not trying to be a wiseguy but I don't understand the question. Are you asking why classical conditioning fails when social inclusion is the only positive reinforcement or reward?

Most people I've met who claim their dog works "to please them" have used corrections as their primary mode of training, and their dog is actually working to avoid being punished.

I am not, not, not disputing your actual point, but I do want to say (because if I don't someone else will!), that I've got a dog that honest to goodness will work exclusively to please me. In fact it's a serious problem because most BCs, their primary motivation is working the sheep. Not Ben - he really could care less overall about the sheep - he has almost zero prey instinct. PLUS, corrections do absolutely nothing to him except make him stop thinking.

So, training Ben has been a big game of "catch you when you are right" and praise, praise, praise. Unfortunately this has severely limited his training. On the other hand, for stuff like tricks and other little companion dog type of things, I never had to do any formal luring or clicker training - no treats were ever needed (though they are appreciated when offered). Just a word of praise INSTANTLY fixes whatever behavior and he will never forget it again.

I had another dog that was like this (run free Rick) - it's really fun when you are not trying to work sheep! Though Rick had that part that Ben was missing where sheep was a sufficient motivator that he COULD take corrections. However, Rick was really TOO tuned in to what his handler was doing and it often made him nervous when he should have had his mind on the sheep.

I've never, however, felt this had anything to do with pack behavior. These dogs just got a big kick out of getting that positive feedback from the handler and were very good at isolating desireable behavior and offering it again and again. I'd say it's a Border Collie thing but that would be both snobbish and not quite true, right? []

My dog doesn't work exclusively for praise/to please me, and that is not his primary motivator -- but he absolutely will work for that, and I have trained him with only positive methods. 
 
Now, is that because he actually has some innate desire to please me, or because he has learned that a "good boy" often will be followed by a game of fetch or a treat or something else he likes?  Almost certainly the latter.  I think that's what Mudpuppy means by it being a secondary reinforcer.   But the fact remains that at this point, he will work just for praise, and he is very responsive to it. 
 
I'd characterize that more as a leadership issue than a pack issue.  A lot of it's just conditioning -- he's learned that it's in his best interest to make me happy with him, and that I often express that through praise.  His personality (dogality?) certainly also plays a role.  But also I believe that he does want to please me because of our bond.  And I think a big reason we've been able to develop that bond is that he's learned he can trust me -- that I am a caring, fair leader whose expectations he can (mostly) understand and from whom he has nothing to fear. 

Is giving praise the same as showing our pleasure? I've never thought praise as a positive reinforcement was about gratifying dogs' sense of altruism... I thought verbal praise was more about "fun" and excitement. That's why you say it in an excited voice... the dog doesn't actually know what "good boy" means.

Ok, although I sort of mashed a couple of questions into one, I did get some interesting comments.

how exactly is "being part of a pack" a motivator?

I have one preceding question... this might be a stupid one, but:
Does a dog ever care that he and you/rest of family separate? All dogs? Some dogs?
Do we need dogs more than they need us?

Do we need dogs more than they need us?

i dont think so. i think most dogs crave human companionship. some dogs more than others maybe, but i think it is something they all want/need.

Dogs do care if the family divides, but they also get over it. Some dogs care more than others and there may be a period of moping around or looking for the other person/dog, but dogs seek pleasure where they can find it and adjust pretty well.
 
They are more concerned with having their needs met than by any one person--even if they are totally devoted to that person.

there is no one solution that will work for every dog ( Regardless of what Cesar Milan claims LOL)! I think we can all agree that dogs have their own personalities...that personality effects their training.
Pack behavior is just a baseline to build from. It is the social influence on which education ( training) is built. Think of it like this...If you had an inner city kid and a kid from a upper middle class home...Would you have to tailor their education a bit to make that education effective? You bet you would.
Dogs are no different...just having a pack is not enough. Whether there is a pack dynamic or not, whether the dynamic is an "inner city" dynamic or a "middle class" dynamic...some dogs training needs to be tailored a bit for the dog to learn. It could be you have a middle class dynamic and an inner city dog...LOL! Does that make sense?
 
even in the wild there are sometimes Wolves that do not fit in or learn in a particular pack.
 
Everytime we take a Coonhound in for obedience training our trainer has to have the dog to himself for a few hours. Why? because we have trained enough Coonies that he knows that not all are successful with his training methods. Not that he could not train the dog eventually, but we both know that there are certian dogs that will simply respond better and more effectively to slightly different methods....in these cases he changes things up a bit in regard to that particular dog. As an example...SOME of the Coonies that are ex hunting dogs could care less for positive reinforcement training. Treats and rewards are so foreign to them that they could just care less...
 
 

Now, is that because he actually has some innate desire to please me, or because he has learned that a "good boy" often will be followed by a game of fetch or a treat or something else he likes? Almost certainly the latter. I think that's what Mudpuppy means by it being a secondary reinforcer. But the fact remains that at this point, he will work just for praise, and he is very responsive to it.

 
exactly. Praise can be come a powerful motivator for some dogs if you carefully create value in praise.
Also many dogs really enjoy their work, and the entire idea of working, and these dogs get reinforcement just from being allowed to work. Like huskies pulling or BCs herding or GSDs doing obedience.

there is no one solution that will work for every dog ( Regardless of what Cesar Milan claims LOL)! I think we can all agree that dogs have their own personalities...that personality effects their training.

Personality first?! Interesting... (I am not a blind fanatic of any trainer/behaviourist, whether it's CM or J.Donaldson - it's just interesting to hear other people's opinions.)

As an example...SOME of the Coonies that are ex hunting dogs could care less for positive reinforcement training. Treats and rewards are so foreign to them that they could just care less...

exactly. Praise can be come a powerful motivator for some dogs if you carefully create value in praise.
Also many dogs really enjoy their work, and the entire idea of working, and these dogs get reinforcement just from being allowed to work. Like huskies pulling or BCs herding or GSDs doing obedience.

What would you use to reward or reinforce behavior of that Coonhound? Would letting him track be a reward? And I am just being devil's advocate: what if tracking is not an option? What would reinforce him to cooperate?