Is it really the unconditional love they show us?

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

DPU- The reason the dogs follow you around adoringly is that your aloof, calm behavior is very alpha. Dogs love a leader. In fact, one of the techniques that I've read about for acclimating an adult dog to your house is to be very distant from them at first, while taking care of their needs of course like feeding them and taking them out to potty. Not fawning all over them and being aloof sends them the message that you're in charge, which they respect. I've done it many times when I worked at animal shelters and when you act like that they flock to you like the salmon of capistrano. [] And of course your fosters will be sad when they go to their new home. You and your other dogs have become their pack and given them some security; it's only natural to not want to lose that.

 
Maybe I need clarification of the definition of unconditional love and if the bond is based on emotions or satisfying needs.  I totally understand that one#%92s behavior will cause a reactive behavior in another.  I was looking at it from a want and need prospective. Sort of like Maslow#%92s hierarchy of 5 needs and what the dog gives in return for satisfying the need is unconditional love.   Now there is another figure in the household that is more calming, aloof, displays leadership qualities, and is of the same species.  In my experience no foster has chosen Blizzard over me. 

I think some people are talking about how they feel...which might not be how the dog interprets things. I love my dogs unconditionally for the unique characteristics each brings to the family. I believe that they have unique relationships with each member of my family as well. Just based on observation and gut.

ORIGINAL: DPU


Now there is another figure in the household that is more calming, aloof, displays leadership qualities, and is of the same species.  In my experience no foster has chosen Blizzard over me. 

Blizzard doesn't provide food, take them for walks, etc. [] If there were no human in the picture they would probably all flock to Blizzard.

So what I guess I'm saying is that I don't think it's unconditional love that dogs show us. I think it's very conditional. If you stopped providing things that met their needs (affection, leadership, food, etc.) I don't think they would give us "love". I DO know that dogs form strong bonds and attachments to their owners, but I'm not sure if it could be classified as love. Not to be a Bill Clinton here, but I guess it depends on the definition of love.

Although dogs are a completely different creature, you made me think of Steve Irwin.  He loved his crocs just as much if not more that we love our dogs.  Can the crocs love him back?  They are certainly not furry and lovey like our dogs or cats or whatever.  I think we love animals because we enjoy them.  They may or may not love us but it doesn't matter.  We love them for us. 

ORIGINAL: DPU


Now there is another figure in the household that is more calming, aloof, displays leadership qualities, and is of the same species.  In my experience no foster has chosen Blizzard over me. 

Blizzard doesn't provide food, take them for walks, etc. [] If there were no human in the picture they would probably all flock to Blizzard.

So what I guess I'm saying is that I don't think it's unconditional love that dogs show us. I think it's very conditional. If you stopped providing things that met their needs (affection, leadership, food, etc.) I don't think they would give us "love". I DO know that dogs form strong bonds and attachments to their owners, but I'm not sure if it could be classified as love. Not to be a Bill Clinton here, but I guess it depends on the definition of love.

 
 
There was a very interesting article in my sept/oct issue of BARK magazine here is a quote from it: "But dogs' desire and ability to communicate, and their formation of attachments,transcend species boundaries.Research found that in novel enviroments,kenneled dogs were calmer in the presence of a human caretaker than with a dog they'd been kenneled with for over two months.It's remarkable that an animal would choose an individual of an entirely different species for comfort and companionship." It also said "  In one study, dogs living in shelters formed attachments to people after only minimal contact. It took only three ten-minute sessions of petting for dogs to become attached, and for the dogs to stand at the door, waiting, if the person left the room."
(It was a chapter from one of patrcia mcconnells books)To me that shows even without food dogs still can have a bond with people.Because I know some scientists believe that they are in just for the food, I believe when wolves were first domesticated that was their motivation to  be with humans but over the thousands of years I think it has alot more to do with than food.Does that make sense I'm reading it and it kinda sounds weird.

ORIGINAL: corvus

Do you love your dog unconditionally? Why? Is it sweeter than being loved unconditionally by your dog, who doesn't necessarily appreciate that it even has an option?

 
After some thought, yes I love my dogs unconditionly because they satisfy or substitute certain human needs.  I've developed a dependency.  And the dogs are a constant in my life.  No it is not sweeter because I can not match what is received.  In addition to unconditional love received, the dog adds the element of innocence.  

ORIGINAL: jones

Corvus... I'm pickin up what your puttin down. [] My dog would go home with any friendly stranger that might cross his path. I don't fool myself that he loves me better than anyone else
 
See - that's Max too. [] I know he loves me, but if the pool guy, the Terminix guy, the Schwans guy or even the guy that mows my neighbors lawn offered him a treat and opened his car door, he'd have his butt in there in a heartbeat. However, I like to think that before the day was over, he'd want to come home.
 
Joyce
 
 

ORIGINAL: Cassiewith2dogs

ORIGINAL: DPU

Now there is another figure in the household that is more calming, aloof, displays leadership qualities, and is of the same species.  In my experience no foster has chosen Blizzard over me. 

Blizzard doesn't provide food, take them for walks, etc. [] If there were no human in the picture they would probably all flock to Blizzard.

So what I guess I'm saying is that I don't think it's unconditional love that dogs show us. I think it's very conditional. If you stopped providing things that met their needs (affection, leadership, food, etc.) I don't think they would give us "love". I DO know that dogs form strong bonds and attachments to their owners, but I'm not sure if it could be classified as love. Not to be a Bill Clinton here, but I guess it depends on the definition of love.

There was a very interesting article in my sept/oct issue of BARK magazine here is a quote from it: "But dogs' desire and ability to communicate, and their formation of attachments,transcend species boundaries.Research found that in novel enviroments,kenneled dogs were calmer in the presence of a human caretaker than with a dog they'd been kenneled with for over two months.It's remarkable that an animal would choose an individual of an entirely different species for comfort and companionship." It also said "  In one study, dogs living in shelters formed attachments to people after only minimal contact. It took only three ten-minute sessions of petting for dogs to become attached, and for the dogs to stand at the door, waiting, if the person left the room."
(It was a chapter from one of patrcia mcconnells books)To me that shows even without food dogs still can have a bond with people.Because I know some scientists believe that they are in just for the food, I believe when wolves were first domesticated that was their motivation to  be with humans but over the thousands of years I think it has alot more to do with than food.Does that make sense I'm reading it and it kinda sounds weird.

I do not do walks.  I open the back door for the pack.  All the dogs have a choice for food provider.  I have 2 40lbs open dog food bags in the kitchen corner.  Any of my dogs can choose to feed themselves at any time.  They will only feed  after they see me scoop the food out of the bag, place the food in bowls, and then present the bowls to them.   So my home situation is similar to what Cassiewith2dogs describes that the dog will choose humans over dogs.  Why and why doesn't the fosters choose Blizzard?

yes, i love my dog and i will all future dogs no matter what. no matter what. i honestly dont really know why i love him. i suppose it is partially due to the fact that it is mutual. this is a very good question...that i dont know the answer to.
 
i do know though, that if it came down to it, of all the humans in his life, if he had to choose just one, it would not be me. but i still love him just the same.

This is a topic very open to interpretation, and that's partially why I'm so interested in hearing how other people feel. Unconditional love is whatever you believe it to be. To me, it's love without reason or bounds.

On an intellectual level, I know my dog adores me because I've been kind to her forever. Like mudpuppy says, she has a long history and memory of me giving her everything she needs. However, I expect she would love any other person who did the same thing for her just as much as she loves me. It doesn't bother me in the slightest, because like Cressida and others said, I love how simple and non-human she is, and I also love how she lives in the present, trusting in her history of kindness with me. And I love her innocence. All of these things I love about dogs.

What I'm interested in is not so much why people love their dogs, as the nature of that love, I suppose. Is it a self-serving love? Is it a love that protects us from our fear of sharing that love with another human? Or is it simply delight in sharing a part of another being's life, a being that we don't wholly understand as much as we try to?

In the end, I know it doesn't matter because knowing the reasons or methods of it all won't change the feelings themselves. I'm just curious about how common it is for humans to love other animals and find such love and companionship in something so alien. It really fascinates me.

Very interesting thread! I am not sure that I believe dogs (and cats for that matter) "love" in the same way we define love.  I think of it more as a combination of trust, companionship and dependancy.  (but that may be considered the definition of love anyway []).  In that sense I would have to say my guys have unconditional love towards me.  In their eyes I am their provider, I lead them in activites and they happily follow me whever I go, this includes the vet, where Lille is not fond of in the first place.[]  She hesitates so I know she knows where she is but she will continue to follow, not sure if this is trust or leadership, maybe a bit of both. 

I used to think Dasher would go with the first friendly stranger that offered him a cookie or tennis ball but now I am not so sure.  When attending an agility seminar the instructor asked if Dasher would work for her in order for her to show me a point she was trying to make.  I gave her some cookies and stepped to the side (not out of site) Well Dasher did eventually work for her but he kept "checking in" with me, running back, etc.  So that makes me think he may not be as eager as I think to jump into a stranger's car. 

I also agree with the posters who said that dogs don't just live in the now, they have a memory.  I think about the stories about dogs reunited with owners after years of separation and the dogs "remembering" their old owners.  Makes be believe that the bond you form with your dogs lasts a lifetime. 

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: Luvntzus

DPU- The reason the dogs follow you around adoringly is that your aloof, calm behavior is very alpha. Dogs love a leader. In fact, one of the techniques that I've read about for acclimating an adult dog to your house is to be very distant from them at first, while taking care of their needs of course like feeding them and taking them out to potty. Not fawning all over them and being aloof sends them the message that you're in charge, which they respect. I've done it many times when I worked at animal shelters and when you act like that they flock to you like the salmon of capistrano. [] And of course your fosters will be sad when they go to their new home. You and your other dogs have become their pack and given them some security; it's only natural to not want to lose that.

Maybe I need clarification of the definition of unconditional love and if the bond is based on emotions or satisfying needs.  I totally understand that one's behavior will cause a reactive behavior in another.  I was looking at it from a want and need prospective. Sort of like Maslow's hierarchy of 5 needs and what the dog gives in return for satisfying the need is unconditional love.   Now there is another figure in the household that is more calming, aloof, displays leadership qualities, and is of the same species.  In my experience no foster has chosen Blizzard over me. 

I guess that means Blizzard doesn't have any control over who gets the roast beef. []
Dogs do have feelings for us and one another, but I don't really think it's unconditional love, although I have no problem with that aspect of anthropomorphizing. []  I think that the fawning they do over us speaks to the fact that they completely get who's in charge of the good stuff.  But, I also think that they derive pleasure from the security of belonging to a pack (to them, being in a pack = survival), and I think they pick their friends and are more reserved (or even hostile) to dogs they don't like, given complete freedom to choose. 
There are humans that my dogs absolutely will not voluntarily approach. (Usually the ones who don't like dogs.)  And, there are people to whom they show instant affinity. (Thank goodness, I was one of those []).  So, IMO, they are sentient beings, albeit with a different set of parameters for what constitutes "love".  But, if you are asking if I love them unconditionally, the answer is a big fat wet-kiss, who-cares-if-they-slobber-on-me YES.  We humans spend a lot of time thinking about how dogs love us - but how do we love our dogs?
Perhaps enough to make the jump to thinking that it must be mutual.
Fine with me. [8D][]

ORIGINAL: Cassiewith2dogs

There was a very interesting article in my sept/oct issue of BARK magazine here is a quote from it: "But dogs' desire and ability to communicate, and their formation of attachments,transcend species boundaries.Research found that in novel enviroments,kenneled dogs were calmer in the presence of a human caretaker than with a dog they'd been kenneled with for over two months.It's remarkable that an animal would choose an individual of an entirely different species for comfort and companionship." It also said "  In one study, dogs living in shelters formed attachments to people after only minimal contact. It took only three ten-minute sessions of petting for dogs to become attached, and for the dogs to stand at the door, waiting, if the person left the room."
(It was a chapter from one of patrcia mcconnells books)To me that shows even without food dogs still can have a bond with people.Because I know some scientists believe that they are in just for the food, I believe when wolves were first domesticated that was their motivation to  be with humans but over the thousands of years I think it has alot more to do with than food.Does that make sense I'm reading it and it kinda sounds weird.

I think you missed that I didn't say it was just food, but affection, walks, etc. And I also said that IF a human wasn't present, then all the dogs would flock to the most alpha dog. []

ORIGINAL: Cassiewith2dogs

There was a very interesting article in my sept/oct issue of BARK magazine here is a quote from it: "But dogs' desire and ability to communicate, and their formation of attachments,transcend species boundaries.Research found that in novel enviroments,kenneled dogs were calmer in the presence of a human caretaker than with a dog they'd been kenneled with for over two months.It's remarkable that an animal would choose an individual of an entirely different species for comfort and companionship." It also said "  In one study, dogs living in shelters formed attachments to people after only minimal contact. It took only three ten-minute sessions of petting for dogs to become attached, and for the dogs to stand at the door, waiting, if the person left the room."
(It was a chapter from one of patrcia mcconnells books)To me that shows even without food dogs still can have a bond with people.Because I know some scientists believe that they are in just for the food, I believe when wolves were first domesticated that was their motivation to  be with humans but over the thousands of years I think it has alot more to do with than food.Does that make sense I'm reading it and it kinda sounds weird.

I think you missed that I didn't say it was just food, but affection, walks, etc. And I also said that IF a human wasn't present, then all the dogs would flock to the most alpha dog. []

 
 
I probably did[]Sometimes I just "skim" the posts and then reply, but I find it very interesting that dogs choose humans over other dogs. A lot of owners aren't really Alpha like, but the dog still chooses the human.

Another article in which confirms dogs have a deeper understanding of love than we do. Written by Dr.Jon, at petplace.com
 
"Sometimes is seems certain that dogs have a deeper understanding of love and life than we do. Is it possible we can learn some great spiritual lessons from our dogs if we pay attention? They certainly seem to know how to help us heal. I just read a wonderful touching story by a woman who lost the person that meant the most to her in the world, but found strength to keep living through her shar-pei.

Heidi Kingsbury in Santa Fe, New Mexico tells a heartbreaking story about losing her best friend of ten years despite an intense battle to help him survive. Her best friend Jack was diagnosed with advanced esophageal cancer. Since Heidi and Jack both work in the medical field, they understood the implications of discovering the disease so far along, but both were determined to beat it. Heidi took him to chemo treatments four days a weeks for months, keeping her spirits up in front of him and being as supportive as possible. However, watching the strong 190 pound man slowly shrink to 78 pounds was simply heartbreaking.

Heidi went home every night and alone she cried and prayed, angry and sad that such a young man was losing such an important fight. He wasn't going to beat the cancer and it wasn't just Heidi he would be forced to leave behind. His two sons would be fatherless. The only thing that got Heidi through this tragic time was her wonderful shar-pei, Astro.

Heidi found the solace and strength that she needed in her loving dog. Astro's love and loyalty knew no limits as he sat with her for hours, kissing her tears away and giving her a warm body to hold on to in the storm. He was so incredibly bold and brave that Heidi found herself following his lead and trying be just as bold and brave herself. She says that, "Astro was loyal, loving, and accepting of my profound sadness and grief". Although Heidi lost Jack, Astro helped her learn that everything happens for a reason; that unconditional love can be found in a world that isn't always fair."