here's a question...

I don't even have to tell them not to.

You made me consider a funny picture in my mind...that of tiny Ellie (maybe 11" at the shoulder? maybe...)trying to get ONTO our bed in the first place. [sm=lol.gif]
 
We got this BIG OLE bed, and even the 5/yo daughter has issues with climbing up on it when I give the okay. I was thinking it was a "regal" looking piece of furniture worthy of a master bedroom...but now I wonder if I just got it subconciously thinking NO ONE CAN GET UP HERE BUT ME AND DH...hehehehe!

I wouldn't consider tie up.  I am fortunate to have a schedule that required Sampson to only be crated for 4hrs a day.  Now, he has run of the house.  He has never been one to chew on anything other than his toys and he is usually sleeping most of that time anyway.   I wouldnt be comfortable crating for 9hrs a day either.  You do what you gotta do.  Maybe block off an area or I would even consider doggie day care a couple days a week if you could afford that.  Thats just me.  I don't like leaving him along for long periods of time.

ORIGINAL: DPU

If the dog is going to chew while you are asleep then the dog is going to chew while you are awake. 

I hope I said in my post that I have no problem with the dog going into his crate during the evening if the dog chooses.  The crate can be a secure and safe place to bed down.  For those dogs that don't want to be crated and want be at their people's side... I say why not and whats the harm...they're suppose to be family members.  Again, if you can't trust them, then they need more training.

 
he sure as heck does NOT chew when i am awake. and of course he needs more training.. in fact i believe a dog can never have enough training.

Thanks for the input. My does not have enough space for an outdoor kennel, and the dog is not reliable when left alone, although she is housebroken. (The dog is a Lab.) When I learned that she ties up her dog, I suggested the crating, but I wasn't sure if it was okay to crate dogs for about 9-hours, so here I am. I brought up the x-pen (she will need one with a cover), but she prefers to crate. I guess she will do what she has to do. I myself am not comfortable with crating a dog for that long, but at least she's not tying her up anymore.

then to you what is the difference between crating when away and crating during the night?

 
Crating during the day for that long, and then at night is too long for a dog.
 
 

Again, if you can't trust them, then they need more training.

Or, you just have a dog that can nevereverevereverever be trusted loose without hawkeye supervision. I have Border collies and have two that fall into this description - both are around six years old. Border collies from some lines lack the ability to say, "OK, nothing's going on, I'll just chill here," even at night! I think these lines are incorrect, but I do have the dogs because they came here as adults, dogs that no one else wanted.

I am training the one dog, Cord, and I think he's getting better, but he's pretty hooked on chewing stuff. He can stay loose sometimes but if he hasn't been worked pretty hard he'll pace all night, ticky, ticky, ticky, ticky, scrape, scrape, ticky, ticky, ticky, all night long. He's a worrier and he's afraid that if he's out of his crate, that something needs to be done. You can't tell me that's better than putting him where he's comfortable and will actually relax.

Doug the Dog will never be trustworthy - he's much too used to amusing himself at this point and it's almost an OCD thing. He got into a LOT of trouble this summer when we tried to give him more freedom. Both these dogs have roomy crates in or near the bedroom, go to bed around midnight, and are up again most mornings before dawn.

Since I am a stay at home mom..Harley is out of his crate other then at night.  He very rarely is in there during the day unless the entire family goes out.  So I do not see where it is too long. 
I am not going to say what you  or what anyone else does  is wrong...you have to do what works best for you and your dog.

I also have an extremely anxious dog who can only really relax when we're not there if he's in his hidey-hole, er, crate. It's the only place he feels safe. He's got pretty specific needs as far as the crate being sufficiently dark and put in a spot where he feels hidden. His problems if left outside the crate far exceed the normal "chewing stuff up destructo-dog" and veer into the realm of full-scale psychotic break. If he wanted to bust out of his crate, he could. He's a huge, powerful dog. If he decided he'd rather be outside the crate than in, we'd know. He demolished a crate he didn't like (wire, too open and exposed) in a day.

While for many dogs a crate is simply a handy management tool which can be used or misused, for some it is the only thing that keeps them sane. In a perfect world, dogs with these kinds of problems wouldn't exist, but they do and we have them and we do the best we can for them.

Crating's not a solution to everything and it can be overused or misused, but I think for any dog owner to just immediately take that option off the table no matter what their dog's problems are is equally as foolish as just saying "Crate it" to every single dog with a problem.

ORIGINAL: brookcove

Or, you just have a dog that can nevereverevereverever be trusted loose without hawkeye supervision.

It is hard for me to believe that with all the dogs that have been in my home I have just lucked out.  Marvin, the hound took some work but he eventually got his freedom during the night.  Maybe its a pack thing.  I am very interested in fostering a BC because of all that I have read on this forum.  BC go pretty fast for us and I usually get the hard cases.  Plus there are other foster families in the organization that only want BC.  I am hoping to get a BC during the holiday break.  I have had a kennel open since November.

ORIGINAL: houndlove

I also have an extremely anxious dog who can only really relax when we're not there if he's in his hidey-hole, er, crate. It's the only place he feels safe. He's got pretty specific needs as far as the crate being sufficiently dark and put in a spot where he feels hidden. His problems if left outside the crate far exceed the normal "chewing stuff up destructo-dog" and veer into the realm of full-scale psychotic break. If he wanted to bust out of his crate, he could. He's a huge, powerful dog. If he decided he'd rather be outside the crate than in, we'd know. He demolished a crate he didn't like (wire, too open and exposed) in a day.

 
I have Marvin a SA dog who is doing pretty well with me.  When the SA explosion took place everyone said he has too much space in his kennel and too many things available to get into trouble.  I was advised to crate him.  I was also advised not to crate him because he could harm himself.  I kept him in his kennel and dog proofed the kennel.  Marvin redefined dog proofing every week.  Its been 3 months now and his kennel is kept in near perfect order.  I will have to starting crate training him because when he is adopted he will probably be crated, hopefully for a short time.  But, it took some work and not that long of a time for him to gain his freedom during the night.

ORIGINAL: DPU

ORIGINAL: gdgarth

I've got two labs.  One is crated during the day and at night, the other is never crated or confined.

Cassie, the younger dog, is fine in her crate all day - I usually go home at noon and let her out, but not always.  Her crate is in the room I use as an office.  At bedtime, I go in to check my mail, and she goes in and goes to her crate to sleep.  She's in the exact same position in the morning when I go down to get her up!  I don't think she's uncomfortable at all being crated all night.

Our older girl, Charlie, has not been crate trained, and gets really spooked if she's locked up.  She has the run of the house.

It's not an option to leave Cassie out while we're gone, because she likes to chase cats.  Our two cats stay in their room until she goes to bed, then they come out (Charlie doesn't bother them at all). 

I should point out that both of the dogs get a 1 mile walk in the morning, and another one in the evening, no matter what the weather.  We've also got a big yard that they can go out in when we're home.  In Cassie's case, it was be crated in our home or die in the shelter.  She (and we) are happy with the decision.

Cassie is use to her lot in life and dogs are very accomodating and resilient.  I can not bring myself to crate a dog for that long a period of time.  One of the dogs I fostered had one deformed leg and other leg was weak.  The vet told us Andrienne was mostly like crated for long periods of time and the crate was probably small so she could not even stretch.  Rehab on this dog took a long time.  Once I saw what can happen, then I did the accomodating.

I'll try to give you the benefit of the doubt, but your post seems condesending, and a bit rude.  Perhaps you're only trying to help, and don't see how you are perceived by others (or perhaps I'm off base, and have misinterpreted your post).  If so, I apologize.

Cassie is absolutely "used to her lot in life", as you put it.  As a matter of fact, she's thrilled with it.  When we adopted her (at about 9 months of age), she was the same height as our older lab, but weighed 40 pounds less.  She had such health issues that she lost weight for a couple of months before we got her stabilized.  After two years, she's now about 2 inches taller than Charlie, and weighs the same (80 pounds).  She's healthy, happy, and, for the most part, well adjusted.  She still has issues with meeting strange dogs, but she's made progress.  She also tends to be terrified of anything new or different - the vacum cleaner, a baby buggy across the street, a lawn mower two houses down, etc.  Sometimes she'll see her reflection in a mirror or the window and bark, growl, have hair standing up - the whole bit. 

She gets a minimum of two, 1-mile walks per day, as well as tons of playtime before and after.  She's passed her CGC test, and does well in obedience (although I haven't taken her to any competition).

She's ready for a nap when she goes to her crate.  She even goes into it before bedtime on a number of occasions.  She has some issues that make it inadviseable to give her the run of the house while we're gone.  At some point that may change, (in fact, it already has - I used to crate her when I had to use the restroom), but for now, that's just the way it has to be.

Cassie has no health issues relating to crating, nor is she neglected, abused, or otherwise mistreated.  Her crate is roomy, and she gets excercise and attention before and after going to bed. 

In my opinion, it's way too simplistic to say "if your dog has to be crated, she needs more training".  I think it's too simplistic to say "crating solves all dog problems", too.  Life is more complex than that.  If you choose not to crate your dogs, that's fine with me - I used to say I'd never crate a dog.  I feel differently now.  Please understand that others have opinions on the subject, and yours aren't necessarily the only valid points of view.

Cassie has no health issues relating to crating, nor is she neglected, abused, or otherwise mistreated.  Her crate is roomy, and she gets excercise and attention before and after going to bed. 

In my opinion, it's way too simplistic to say "if your dog has to be crated, she needs more training".  I think it's too simplistic to say "crating solves all dog problems", too.  Life is more complex than that.  If you choose not to crate your dogs, that's fine with me - I used to say I'd never crate a dog.  I feel differently now.  Please understand that others have opinions on the subject, and yours aren't necessarily the only valid points of view.

 
It sounds like Cassie is very well taken care of.  It also sounds like she is in a work in process and you are attentive in making her comfortable.  Sometimes, and this is a critique of me, I don't notice changes and I get complacent with the status quo.  For example, most of the foster dogs I get are way underweight and one of the first things I do is give them proper nourishment to put on weight.  When they kind of exceed their normal weight I don't notice them getting chubby because I see them every day.  It is not until the dog showings that someone will point this out.  I don't resent it, I react by reducing their food intake and more exercise.  The same can happen for a growing dog that is crated for a long period of time.  I am sure that is what happened to Andrienne.  The owners did not notice she was growing and the crate was becoming too small for her.  When the medical condition was pronounce, well it was off to the shelter with her.  To be perfectly honest, I am being judgemental because I know I would not be able to function at work knowing that my dogs were crated for 11 hours.  Although I am sure the dogs would get use to it over time, I would not be able to handle the time it takes.  I still also say that unless a dog chooses to go into its crate in evening, I see no reason why the dog can't be with its people and I think that should be the families goal.

DPU, many good wishes with fostering the BC this holiday - I'm here for ya if you need me, lol. BCs are like the Girl With the Curl in the Middle of Her Forehead. When they're good, they're very, very, good. But when they're bad they're awful.

You see, BCs are bred to push the limits all the time. It's what makes them so much fun to train, that "Let's see what happens if I . . .", attitude. You can have a dog you think knows the rules, and one day walk into a room and find the dog has quietly opened all the bins of baking supplies on the counter and eaten two pounds of rice, three pounds of sugar, and five pounds of flour in one sitting. That was one of Cord's adventures. As I say, he's now learning the lesson that he needs to stay with ME and not go amuse himself. Maybe in two or three years he'll get the picture. [8|]

Last summer Rocky opened the fridge and took out a mayo jar (food service size - I had made large salads for a couple parties we had right close to each other). He ate the whole thing then proceeded to eat the plastic jar. Time it took? I was in the shower and I take very fast showers, about ten minutes tops from clothes off to clothes on. []

Doug tends to sneak out when the kids go outside, and then ransack the "dog cabinet" in the garage. This is a locked cabinet, but he has been known to chew the knobs off the doors to get to the goodies inside, and even chew through the woodwork itself when we installed metal knobs (one of the doors now has a lovely ventilation system thanks to Doug). He can do this and have something out, disected (he can chew through plastic bottles and metal food bins with ease), in the time it takes me to look up and say, "Have you seen Doug lately?"

Doug has hip dysplasia on one hip, and old injury on the other hip, but can leap eight feet straight up and over with ease, flat footed. Putting stuff up high, and blocking doors with baby gates, are all just making the game more fun. He once got into a metal trash can with a motorcycle strap holding the lid on, and ate 10 pounds of bird seed. He's not hungry, it's just fun to him to overcome these challenges. Patrick did all kinds of stuff other than the sheep with him this summer to try to keep him amused but it just seemed to jack him up more. As soon as our attention wavered from him, it was back to chewing stuff and cabinet raiding.

Border collies shouldn't be like this, as I've said before, but some of them are, for sure. And it's difficult to believe it's only a BC thing. Lest you think it's a training thing, I have four dogs here who are out all the time, almost, one of which is a five month old BC puppy. I don't even crate train until a pup is about four months old, unless I've got to travel with the pup.

You know Brookcove, after coming off a SA dog like Marvin the hound, one thing about the situations you describe is that it would not be a sad situation.  As a matter of fact I would find humor in it.  I see in my organization that they are getting 10 dogs this week and two dogs, a golden mix and bc mix do not have a foster family assigned.  I don't choose the dogs that come to my home but I am hoping for the BC mix.  Image my home, a Pittie, a Hound, and a BC, lus the masters of the house and the real fosterers-3 Great Danes.

Actually it IS very funny. [] The only not-funny times are when the dogs get into something dangerous. I was really scared for Doug when he had the pancreatitis this summer, and then Ben did the same darn thing - he didn't get into anything, I just left the EVO out on the counter for a few minutes to move the sheep. When I came back about ten minutes later, I found my eleven year old 47 pound dog, who HATED the contact obstacles in agility, was standing on the counter finishing off the bag. He'd never even swiped a cookie off the table and in fact has to be given permission to eat when I put his bowl down (long story, NILIF gone wild).

Then there was the time Doug raided the dog cabinet and ate 500 Yeast and Vitamin B tablets - and washed it down with the bottle it came in. After my vet stopped laughing so hard she couldn't talk, she reassured me that at most it might upset his tummy (it didnt) and that he might be bouncing off the walls for a while from the B12 (he was, but it was hardly noticeable from his normal personality).

That was pretty funny in retrospect but I shudder to think what would have happened if it had happened to be the Antioxidant tabs with Vitamin A, or the FeDex (not FedEx, Iron Dextrose) I keep in there for the sheep. One time Doug hopped up on the sink, opened the locked medicine cabinet, and ate about ten of my Depacote tablets. After we determined that the drug was probably OK for dogs (it took a supervisor to figure that out at the Animal Poison Control Center), he laughingly said that it would either put him to sleep if he was a normal dog, or make him really happy if he had bipolar affective disorder. Doug did not go to sleep. [sm=eek.gif]

Good luck! A mix shouldn't be too bad, though as you know they all come with uniquie challenges.