Avoiding Submission

    • Gold Top Dog

    Avoiding Submission

    Hi, I know in canine body language, if you roll over you're submitting to the dog. Not a good thing. What else should I not do to make sure I keep my place in the pecking order?
    • Gold Top Dog
    I would suggest trying the NILIF to make sure you stay at the top of the pecking order. ('nothing in life is free'; google it) My dog knows I am in control and I lay on my back all the time, even sometimes with her on my stomach. I'm all for knowing dog body language, but it shouldn't effect whether you are the leader or not.
    I'm sure someone with a lot more knowledge than me can come around and explain it better.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Don't worry about being dominant with your dog. Be a good leader and help your dog trust and depend on you. Spend time teaching him/her tricks and obedience. That naturally teaches your dog that you are the leader.

    I lie down on the floor to do exercises and it in NO WAY makes my dog think I'm submitting to her. In fact, she lays down and imitates my exercises. It's hilarious!

    You are the one who feeds your dog. You control the food. That's far more important than whether you lay on the floor or not.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Not only do you control the food, you have the car keys, take the dog out on walks and to play, and are at the business end of the leash.

    Your dog knows that you are not a dog, and for that matter pack hierarchy in dogs is very fluid and situational(as it is in humans). IMO thinking about things in terms of pack hierarchy is a good way to send mixed signals to your dog about your ability to lead because it's full of arbitrary rules that tend to make humans anxious.

    Better to train your dog, control the dog's access to everything it wants and needs, and stop wondering or worrying about concepts that have nothing to do with day-to-day leadership. Just lead, be a good human leader to your dog. They have evolved an amazing ability to work with humans, read human body language, etc.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: fisher6000

    Not only do you control the food, you have the car keys, take the dog out on walks and to play, and are at the business end of the leash.

    Your dog knows that you are not a dog, and for that matter pack hierarchy in dogs is very fluid and situational(as it is in humans). IMO thinking about things in terms of pack hierarchy is a good way to send mixed signals to your dog about your ability to lead because it's full of arbitrary rules that tend to make humans anxious.

    Better to train your dog, control the dog's access to everything it wants and needs, and stop wondering or worrying about concepts that have nothing to do with day-to-day leadership. Just lead, be a good human leader to your dog. They have evolved an amazing ability to work with humans, read human body language, etc.


    Ditto.  And, enroll in a dog-friendly training class.  Go observe first - are the methods producing happy dogs and happy handlers?  Are the humans able to understand the instructor's words and demonstrations?  Do the dogs get it, or are they just being dragged along for the ride?
    Sites with trainer search:
    www.clickertraining.com
    www.apdt.com
    • Gold Top Dog
    Spiritdogs linked a good site in another thread ("I don't have to type anymore") and the site will point out that while dogs can see you as a leader, they will sort out a pecking order amongst themselves. So, read that sentence backwards; while dogs may have a pecking order amongst themselves, they can still see you as leader, regardless of your physical position.

    NILIF is the easiest, in that you don't have to manhandle the dogs. If you control the resources, they have no choice but to listen to you. That's being a stronger alpha than a wolf.
    • Gold Top Dog
    I mean, he knows his place in the pack, at the bottom. So i can pretty much do anything I want and keep my place?
    • Gold Top Dog
    Two really great books that have wonderful sections on dominance and social hierarchies are The Other End of the Leash by Patricia McConnell and Bones Would Rain From the Sky by Suzanne Clothier. Some of Clothier's articles are on her website and this one in particular might help you:

    http://www.flyingdogpress.com/leadership.html
    • Gold Top Dog
    Dogs roll over all the time in play with each other! I believe it was in the famous Golden Retriever tug study that scientists decided there is evidence to suggest that dogs recognize not only that play is different from real competition, but also that play with humans has even less to do with "pack positions." It's my personal belief that dogs inherently recognize that humans are not two-legged dogs, and they try to speak our language just as we would do well to speak a little of theirs. ...Anyway, even if you just look at dog behavior, you'll notice in any pack of dogs the one who is most worried about his pack position is never the one at the top - so don't be that dog, whatever you do! [:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Leader, among other things, is mainly an attitude. I can place my head over my dog's head. He will, at other times, nuzzle up under my chin. He sleeps on the bed, sits on the couch, and moves out of my way when I require it. Why? Because I have moved him before without hesitation. There's no negotiation, it will be my way. This does not mean that I hurt him or have to lord it over him every single minute. He simply knows from habit that I am the leader and that he can trust me because I will not harm him and, if possible, lead him away from bad things. So, leadership does involve trust. I can lay on the ground with him. I can play tug with the ball or a chew. I can stick my hand  between his teeth and tap at the ball, etc. I can do this because he trusts and there is no struggle for leadership. I am the leader, no question. It's only when the dog does not know who the leader is that a confusion can occur, creating instability. The dog will seek to stabilize, even if that means taking over the leadership role. But there's nothing wrong with playing. One of the most touching scenes I have ever seen was in the 2004 Iditarod. A musher was rolling in the snow and playing with his lead dog before he even allowed himself a bathroom break, let alone a meal. It was a reward for a good, hard run and served as a distraction while the handlers set up the area. And it did not damage the relationship. The musher still leads.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: WolfDog

    Hi, I know in canine body language, if you roll over you're submitting to the dog. Not a good thing. What else should I not do to make sure I keep my place in the pecking order?


    This entirely depends upon the situation.  If you're playing with the dog and you roll over, it's not in submission, unless the dogs stands over you.  If it's within the context of play, it's ok to be on your back for a few moments..

    One thing I would caution against is any kind of "rough play" or "slap boxing" with your dog.  I'm not accusing you of doing so, but IMO people that do this teach their dogs that it's okay to mouth a human.  In reality it's not ok to do so-especially when they develop strong jaws.

    NILIF is a great idea.  It's a great reinforcer.

    Teaching good habits now will prevent bad habits later.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: WolfDog

    Hi, I know in canine body language, if you roll over you're submitting to the dog. Not a good thing. What else should I not do to make sure I keep my place in the pecking order?


    What? If you roll over with my dogs you're inviting play.  The best way to keep your place in the pecking order is by being the provider of all things. 

    Paula
    • Gold Top Dog
    If you roll over near Willow she will look at you like "if you're not going to use the couch, can I"???  [sm=happy.gif]
    • Gold Top Dog
    If you roll over near Willow she will look at you like "if you're not going to use the couch, can I

     
    Willow, she's a dog with a clear sense of priorities.[:D]
    • Gold Top Dog
    Zhi taught me a HUGE amount about the dynamics of leadership in the doggie world. One interesting thing she will do is "befriend" a new dog, expecially a new one - often by acting very submissive. Then she will offer play, and other accepting behaviors. After that she will assert her authority, mostly by withdrawing attention - it's like a switch she turns off. She will growl at puppies or silly dogs with socialization problems (Cord was kind a dork when he first came, for instance), but she never does it until she's "won over" that dog.

    I think some of these dynamics come from her being a little dog - she doesn't have the weight to throw around to boss around dogs from the start! But if you think about it, throwing OUR weight around is kind of meaningless too, in the context of trying to establish a relationship. I don't mean avoiding corrections, but I think it's useful to think, "Are we offering something about ourselves that will make this dog want to be around me? Have I sent a clear enough message that he can trust me? Does he know what I expect from him?"