Breeding for temperament it's a BIGGY!

I think adaptability is of primary importance even among the most driven working breeds. I had a monster headache two days ago - for two days - and my dogs who normally spend half the day working, lay quietly around the bedroom all day. Even the pup (15 weeks old) alternated chewing his bones and sleeping, though of course for his sake we all had to go out about every three hours.

You'd be amazed to see that room full of "hyper" BCs sprawled all over the floor and draped on the bed.

They can also go with me anywhere and behave themselves, without special training. I've mentioned my farm bred rescue who slipped right into the public life with ease, never having seen a vet, pet store, or even a crate or car. And all but my two pups have lived with multiple people for various reasons.

In the Border collie, adaptability comes from breeding for proper working traits, and it's one of the things I look for first in a breeder's dogs.

I think it is one of the most important things!  My mentor who breeds Parson Russells is very big on this.  All of our dogs get along(with the exception of two who hate each other).  Russells are often known for being a bit dog aggressive occassionally.  They can also be a bit nippy, but none of ours have ever bitten.  If they bite or are very dog aggressive, or way too soft...they are not bred.  They will be neutered/spayed and placed in a proper pet home.  Fortunately, through proper breeding, we don't have many problems at all.  Actually, I don't think we have had any who are dog aggressive in the time that I have been working with him.  We haven't had any that bite either...but, if we did they would not be bred at all.  The puppies are also socialized very well when young to learn to adapt to new situations.  We keep them inside, outside, in the garage, in crates separated, they go to public places, they have many people handle them, and once in a while, they go to class with him since he is an animal science professor.  That really helps to make sure they become well adjusted dogs.

I understand what your saying.  It's great that they can adjust to change well.  But, I never really associated this with breeding for "temperment".  I always considered that to be something different. 

I agree completely. Since the chihuahua craze has taken off thanks to certain useless celebrities, I hear all the time about how chihuahuas are imposible to housebreak, slow to learn, spazzy, high strung, etc. It makes me sad because my mom's chihuahua Sophie is so wonderful (she's 13 years old). She was purchased from a very responsible breeder. She picked up all her training so quickly, and adapts to us easily. When my mom was working 2 jobs and had no time whatsoever, you would never know that Sophie was cooped up in the house more than usual. When you want to relax, she's right there on a lap. When you feel like running around, it's zoomies around the yard.

Think about this - what do we think of as "good temperament"? You can't breed for something that esoteric - you have to select FOR a particular characteristic (don't bite isn't a trait - it's a negative) - or combination thereof.

We think of a dog with a "good temperament" as being one that is comfortable living around people in all their forms and environments, right? A dog doesn't have to be slobberingly friendly (a reserved nature is in many breed standards), but it does have to be able to be comfortable in a wide range of situations. This is one element that is true of all breeds, no matter what else their standard or function requires as to other elements - biddability, drive, inhibitions, etc.

A dog that is not adaptable can turn into a fear biter, or can develop aggression from an inability to adjust to a particular lifestyle. Changes in routine or family can shatter them and turn them into withdrawn or shy dogs. Medical problems, even minor ones, become huge if they necessitate new places, handling by new people, travel. A growing family can create serious problems for a dog that doesn't have the ability to adjust to the accidents, routine changes, periods of attention and neglect, and phases of excitement and boredom that are a part of a young family's household.

The ideal dog is not Lassie Come Home, or Greyfriar's Bobby, as romantic as those stories are. The ideal dog to me is the dog that can change hands many times and go through no more than a reasonable adjustment period. A dog like this can fit into the topsy-turvy world that we humans live in. Even if a dog never has to change hands, it's wonderful if he has the ability to take cues from us that things are OK even if they are different.

The ideal dog to me is the dog that can change hands many times and go through no more than a reasonable adjustment period.

 
The key words here are, "...to me...".   I am pretty sure temperament is born in the dog.  Just like humans are born with a temperament.  My female husky is identical in behavior to her mother...sweet and super hyper.  But she is a beautiful pet for this family.  Her brother is like the father, calmer and a much better listener. 
 
 
I see the problem that you are inferring to as when the breeders are just irresponsible and creating dogs without regard to "temperament".  It is going to be a huge problem for those who love a breed and are unlucky enough to gain out of control breeding problems...It becomes about the  $ to a lot of bad breeders due to the public desire for the popular breed. 
 
And basically I believe that a lot of families should not get a dog.  The kind that love the cute puppy, but then completely neglect him when he is older and not so "cutesy" to them....

I couldn't agree more that breeding for temperment is so important.  I have known Dasher's breeder (JRT) for about 9 years, before I ever thought about getting a JRT.  All her dogs have amazing temperments.  When considering a JRT, I knew that if she did not have any puppies at the time I was looking for a dog I would have waited.  (Lucky for me she had Dasher [])

Dasher has the BEST temperment for a JRT, everyone who meets him says something on the lines of "Wow, if all JRT were like this I would get one!"  That is a huge compliment to my breeder considering these are all "dog people" making these comments.  I know when I am in the market for another JRT to add to my zoo, I will most likely go back to Dasher's breeder.  Dasher is also super drivy and ver biddable, he has tons of energy yet he knows "down time" as well. Just a super dog all around. []

I always thought what is being described here as socialization not temperment.  This is interesting to me, please inform me more everyone.[]

ORIGINAL: willowchow

I always thought what is being described here as socialization not temperment.  This is interesting to me, please inform me more everyone.[]

 
When children are born into your family, it never ceases to amaze me how unique each infants personality already is!  Behavioral patterns, everything - how they respond, react, how they get your attention...Neediness, crying out...easily frustrated, or not, urgency or more calm...
 
It is totally unpredictable.  My point is that I think that what is going to be called "ideal" is really up to the owner of the dog.  What is making one person happy in a dog, may not be the same for another.  Unless you are just talking about "show dogs".   Which I am obviously not into!
 
I love my fun and hyper dogs.   May not be "ideal" for another person, but just right for me.
[]

ORIGINAL: willowchow

I always thought what is being described here as socialization not temperment.  This is interesting to me, please inform me more everyone.[]

I see socialization and temperment as 2 different things.  With regard to this thread, temperment is something that is bred into the dog, pre-wired if you will.  Socialization is something we train into our dogs. IMO socialization and training will only take you so far if the "right" temperment is not already bred into the dog.  For example, I have a JRT and someone else in my agility class has a JRT.  Both owners have done equal amounts of socialization and training with their dogs.  However one JRT can be dog aggressive while the other has never met a dog he didn't like.  Both dogs can heel, come, etc and have been exposed to the same types of situations.  So what makes one dog different than the other, IMO, temperment.  There is a good chance that the parents of the dog aggressive dog were somewhat aggressive, shy, etc, and the parents of the other dog were more even tempered.  The same can be said for dogs that are more drivy, more mellow, more biddable, etc.

Hope that makes some sense, anyway, thats how I view temperment as opposed to socialization.

ORIGINAL: brookcove

I think adaptability is of primary importance even among the most driven working breeds. I had a monster headache two days ago - for two days - and my dogs who normally spend half the day working, lay quietly around the bedroom all day. Even the pup (15 weeks old) alternated chewing his bones and sleeping, though of course for his sake we all had to go out about every three hours.

You'd be amazed to see that room full of "hyper" BCs sprawled all over the floor and draped on the bed.

They can also go with me anywhere and behave themselves, without special training. I've mentioned my farm bred rescue who slipped right into the public life with ease, never having seen a vet, pet store, or even a crate or car. And all but my two pups have lived with multiple people for various reasons.

In the Border collie, adaptability comes from breeding for proper working traits, and it's one of the things I look for first in a breeder's dogs.

Couldn't agree with this more.  A good working dog is adaptable.  I tease a lot about my little speckled "monster", but she would be the same as Rebecca described.  Highly driven, but able to curl up on the couch when mom has the sniffles.  In fact, they all have their little places that they take when something like that happens.  I don't hear a peep all day.  They don't even ask to go out - I have to ask them.  Or, they wait for my BF if he's home.  Good dogs - nothing like it. []

Deb, I have a good friend with lupus, and she has days like that, too.  Her GSD is just like our dogs - a real comfort, and not a jerk!

I also have a friend with lupus and she swears that her BC/newf mix knows when she is having a "bad day" and is extra mellow with her.

ORIGINAL: dasher

ORIGINAL: willowchow

I always thought what is being described here as socialization not temperment.  This is interesting to me, please inform me more everyone.[]

I see socialization and temperment as 2 different things.  With regard to this thread, temperment is something that is bred into the dog, pre-wired if you will.  Socialization is something we train into our dogs. IMO socialization and training will only take you so far if the "right" temperment is not already bred into the dog.  For example, I have a JRT and someone else in my agility class has a JRT.  Both owners have done equal amounts of socialization and training with their dogs.  However one JRT can be dog aggressive while the other has never met a dog he didn't like.  Both dogs can heel, come, etc and have been exposed to the same types of situations.  So what makes one dog different than the other, IMO, temperment.  There is a good chance that the parents of the dog aggressive dog were somewhat aggressive, shy, etc, and the parents of the other dog were more even tempered.  The same can be said for dogs that are more drivy, more mellow, more biddable, etc.

Hope that makes some sense, anyway, thats how I view temperment as opposed to socialization.

I completely agree.  Breeding even tempered dogs is what needs to be done first.  There is a breeder a few towns over that breeds JRs and all of hers are aggressive.  They are dog aggressive, and people aggressive...even as puppies.  One even went after a 5 year old.  She just breeds anything together without any regard to matching temperments.  There are some lines in Parsons that have a bit more of a tendency to be dog aggressive.  I won't mention the names because that might be agaist the rules.  Its because they don't focus on temperment, but rather looks.  And, it shows because almost all of their dogs are cookie cutter dogs.  Beautiful dogs though.  I think socialization completes the temperment.  It helps to make them adaptable.  However, you aren't going to change their personality.  Rose is a bum...everyone asks if she is a purebred because she is soooo calm.  She is a lap dog.  Loves my rabbit and sugar gliders, but her hunting instinct kicks in outside sometimes.  Her mother was the same way.  Dominant, but very laid back.  When I would go to feed at my mentor's, she loved to hop in my car and sleep on the seat.  She was a bum also.  That is obviously genetic.  Just as Colton being a mouth, his mother is a mouth.  Rose's puppies are very quiet, just like Rose. 

I largely credit Marlowe's working line background for his solid temperment. The dog is pretty much just bomb-proof to a ridiculous extent, and I had nothing at all to do with that. But afterall, in a working dog, you need an adaptable, friendly, non-aggressive, focused dog. If you're going to a nite hunt every weekend somewhere new, hunting along side other dogs they've never even encountered before, the dog has to be adaptable and have an even temperment along with the  drive to work, or else they'll have performance issues or get in fights with other dogs instead of doing what they're supposed to be doing. These are tough little dogs too. They take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.
 
Ironically, I doubt his breeder was all that concerned with a "pet temperment" but the same things that make him an excellent working dog also make him an excellent pet, as long as I give him an outlet for his drives.