Docking, ear cropping?

I was never around dobies in my life and can't even recall having seen "up close and personal", just ones on TV and believe it or not, I thought that was natural ears because it was all I ever saw.  Of course I knew the tail was whacked off.
 
When KayCee was spayed I got to be with her thru the entire procedure and also stay with her in recovery.  there was a young dobie (he looked fully grown , but  my vet did call him a puppy) in one of the other cages there and he was crying and it was so pitiful.  I couldn't image what had happened to that poor dog's ears.  My vet said the dog belonged to one of the police officers here in our little town, and he had gotten the dogs ears cropped over in Corpus, but it was a botched jo and the cop had brought the dog to him to repair the ears.
 
Now I was told on another forum that the dog was not really crying from pain, but was crying as it came out of the gas and dogs usually do that.  I don't know.  I only know i was with KayCee after spay and after both her knee surgereis and after dental and I never heard her, nor any of my other dogs making that pitiful crying.  Could be the breed I don't know.  But i decided that day that was not something i would do except for medical reasons.

Ear cropping & docking is a purely cosmetic selective surgery, which has no benefit to the animal whatsoever. A lot of show breeders will crop ears because they have the perfect show dog, but the ears don't quite sit right, so cropping makes them show better (ie: a legal way to cheat.), tails get cropped because it has always been done that way and places like the AKC require it as standard for certain breeds.

I just wish breeders and the Kennel clubs would wake up and understand that each animals is perfect in it's own special way, and they do not need to be mutilated because WE, as humans think we can improve on creation.

It's a bit like cropping your kids ears cos you are a Start trek fan and like Mr Spock.
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Sorry, but that's your opinion.  If I had a Dobe, I'd want it docked and cropped.  I do schutzhund and would like to try other ringsports, some of which require actively grabbing at the dog.
 
Ears are cropped to prevent tearing and grabbing.  This look important not only for the work, but for the dog's appearance in general.
 
And these days, I really don't buy that people are "more afraid" of cropped Dobes than uncropped.  I've got a friend that shows Dobermans, both cropped of course, and we all (Her, her dobes, and my GSD and I) attended a children's function called Sweet Street.
 
There were at least 300 kids there, and none of em or there parents, were afraid to approach the Dobermans.  Heck, more of them ran  up to say hello to the Dobermans than people that came to see Strauss!  People were more wary of my GSD than the "Scary cropped Dobes".

ORIGINAL: Xeph

....And these days, I really don't buy that people are "more afraid" of cropped Dobes than uncropped.....

 
I think with a cropped Dobe, people know it's a Doberman so the pre-conceived notion that it will be an attack/guard dog is there. Which of course, makes people afraid if they have never known this wonderful breed. But with a natural eared Dobe, some people don't even recognize it as a Doberman so don't have that same view point.
 
Alot of people seem to think a Dobe with floppy ears is a "lab mix". I don't know how many "mixes" I have seen on Petfinder that are actually indeed, pure bred Dobes.

I dont think getting a dog undocked from a reputable breeder is possible, unless you get one that is imported. A breeder is not going to risk leaving a pup uncropped that may or may not suit your lifestyle or turn out a good show prospect.

I am a big fan of cropping, I will not deny that anywhere. But I do think that an uncropped dog stands out incredibly in the show ring amongst cropped dogs because its something different.

But to leave a potential show dog uncropped is a big risk, because at such a young age you cant properly see the potential a dog may have as an adult, and like it or not a cropped dog can cover up a few faults that an uncropped dog cant.

I've owned Dobes in the past and they were cropped and docked. They were docked at 3 days of age and they were cropped before 16 weeks of age. If I were to get a Dobe now, would I crop the ears? Probably not unless it was a show quality dog. I am not against cropping or docking as long as it's done by a knowledgeable vet who understands there are variations of a crop and understands that "one size does not fit all". If a vet doesn't have a clue as to what they are doing, you can ruin a dogs look with a bad crop job(or even worse, ruin a potential show career). It's also important to be educated about the after care of a crop. You have to know how to maintain the ears so they don't get infected and you have to maintain the taping so that they'll stand erect or else you just wasted your money. With that said, if you are interested in a pet quality dog there isn't a reason to dock or crop but if you do buy from a responsible breeder, the chances that the dog will be docked is extremely high and the chances it will already be cropped is high too. If the dog isn't cropped, I doubt a responsible breeder would have a problem with you not cropping especially if the dog is a pet quality dog.

flip 195, you are correct in that both surgeries are unnecessary, but they are not valueless to the dog:
 
Cropped ears are less likely to develope yeast infections, as an open ear allows sunlight to enter and air to circulate.
 
Cropped ears are actually more natural.  As cute as they are, if you think about it, no wild canine has floppy ears.
 
Long-haired working dogs are likely to collect burrs, seeds, and dung in their tails if they are not docked, allowing parasites a place to live.  Obviously, this does not ertain to smooth-coated breeds.
 
Most terriers have their tails docked because (originally) hunters would safely be able grab them by their tails to pull them out of a vermin's burrow.
 
Since most dogs are now exclusively pets, I agree that both the surgeries are un-necessary for most dogs.  I do admire a quality cropping job, though.  I think it gives the dog a dignified look.

Just wanted to say both cropping and docking are illegal in my country. I'll bring it up every time a thread like this comes up, because I like to remind people that think it's okay that other people think it's so barbaric that it needs to be outlawed. I think it's worth considering that before you get involved in cropping and docking and try to see why some people think it's cruel. If authorities in the US or some other country decided routine spays/neuters were cruel and should be outlawed, you bet I'd be looking very hard at what people in my country accepted and thinking very hard about whether I should put my dog through something that some people thought was cruel.

The docking law has only recently been introduced. I saw my first undocked dobe puppy a few months ago and she was utterly adorable. Beautiful happy tail, cute natural ears. []

I would never get my dogs ears cropped!  I was 30 before i got up enough courage to get my ears pierced!   LOL

So barbaric it needs to be outlawed?  Well I wholeheartedly disagree.  I certainly don't see any undocked/uncropped Dobes or Rotts on police forces.

Sorry I have to agree that it is a personal thing, I will someday own a Bouvier, they are also cropped and docked as she will be, because I like it.  I do live in canada and the CanKC does not have anything against it.  No one here or anywhere else can tell me it is wrong, as long as I am having a qualified vet do the operations.  If I were to hack them off with scissors in my backyard then yes everyone can yell at me, but when a vet is doing it you all can suck rocks, IMO.  We all do things everyday to our dogs that others feel is wronge, but we do it anyhow.  Some people dont agree with putting foolish clothing on dogs is neccisary, but people do it anyhow because they like it, I have no right to tell them to stop so I dont.  I feel the same way about abortions if you want to know just because I couldnt do it doesnt mean you cant.  In all truth spaying is a much more invasive surgery than cropping or docking, but everone tells everyone else to get that done, for the good of the dog, well guess what a smart owner knows how to prevent an unwanted pregnancy.

ORIGINAL: ruffian

We all do things everyday to our dogs that others feel is wronge, but we do it anyhow.  Some people dont agree with putting foolish clothing on dogs is neccisary, but people do it anyhow because they like it, I have no right to tell them to stop so I dont.

Ruffian, that's just the distinction I was trying to make. Lots of people do things to their dogs that other people think is wrong, but very few of them are things that have been made ILLEGAL in other countries on the basis of unnecessary cruelty.

I'm not trying to change your mind because I've had this argument with you before and I know you won't change your mind, I'm just clarifying my point. Unnecessary cruelty to animals is an offense in your own country, as well. Over here, cropping and docking are now treated as cruelty to animals cases. On top of that, Australia is not the only country where it's illegal. We're part of a long list of countries that have outlawed cropping and a shorter list that has outlawed docking. When a good portion of developed countries have banned these practices on the basis of cruelty, you've got to wonder if there's something to it after all.

Oh, that's right, you studied the cases for and against and made up your mind already.

A good portion of those developed countries have also banned pitbulls, doesnt mean that they can or should tell me that I cant own one.  I personally am glad to live in a free society.
 
 
Oh and ya I did research the procedure, cropping that is, you have a problem with people that actually look into these things before going ahead with them now???  As for docking I have helped the vet back home do this to rottie pups, they never even squeaked. 

I do not have a strong opinion on cropped or uncropped dogs.  I have Great Danes that are both.  I think using the terms barbaric and cruel are way too strong and those that use those terms probably don't have these breeds as their family pets.  I think it's a personal preference and if I choose to have the procedure done and spend my money to do so then I should be allowed.  I don't like when the government intrudes on my personal choices.  In this country at the federal or state level a ban would be the result of *Special Interest Groups*.  On a campaign trail, the policitian depicts these people as evil.  The few dictating the choices of the mass.  Also there is normally a compromise or an appeasement that may be totally unrelated to the ban itself.  For example, in order to pass the transportation bill, the Alaskan delegation amended the bill so their state would be funded to build a bridge *that goes nowhere* from the mainland to an island.  This is where the regional airport was and you had to take a ferry to get there.  Very few people in the region use that airport.   Fortunate for the taxpayer, public awareness stopped this from happening.  But then again maybe the public awareness was the result of *Special Interest*.  With no intention to insult the Australian people or the aboriginals there, and from the US taxpayer view,  I wonder what the taxpayer was socked with or if Australia is towing the line with other developed countries.

I think instead of taking away personal choices, resources and voicing objections should be directed at the creators of the dog image.  When watching dogs shows like Westminster or Eucanuba the dogs are presented with cropped ears.  On food packages the images of the dogs are with cropped ears.  Look at Pedigree kibble for the large dog.  Front and center is the Great Dane with cropped ears.  Look at the avatars provided by IDOG…all cropped.  The public perception is a cropped or docked image and they do not recognize the breed when the ears are natural.

Flip195, I like the Startrek Spock analogy.

I personally would never want to dock/crop a dog.
 
I have a pit foster who has cropped ears. Although they are done well, people still comment "he looks mean", just because of his cropped ears. IMO, although it is sad it might help people get over the notion that pits, and dobies are mean if they have the nice floppy ears. I personally think Jet would look SO much better with floopy ears.
 
I understand if you are getting a Dobie to show (I assume that is in the standard), but I still would definantly vote to leave him/her the way he/she is if possible.