Breeding for standards, work, temperament, health or all.

Statistics need not be involved in this issue.  If you have ever worked or had any experience with shelter dogs you would know that emotions are a higher drive then number to encourage adopting over breeding new breeds.  Not all shelthers dog where not a good match, some where strays that never found their way home, other the owner moved and left their dog behind or some just puppies not even given the chance to experience a life with an owner.  Many shelter dogs make wonderful pets and many wonderful pets die everyday because some breeders like to experiment with creating new breeds that are no different then the ones that already exist.

ORIGINAL: faramir

i am all for coming up with new breeds or variations of a breed, IF the result will be dogs that fit better into people's lifestyles...

 
Are you saying you are for the breeding of mutts?  Can you give me an example of a "lifestyle" for which we might be able to breed an acceptable mutt yet for which no acceptable breed exists currently?

Thank you Billy.  That's what I was implying with the "doodle" comments earlier.

I'm sick of seeing ads in the paper for Mixed dogs priced well over $500. I'm sick of people being stupid enough to pay it.  I strongly believe that dogs are overpriced. I also believe vet charges are too much. If the vets didn't charge so much to have dogs/cats fixed the over population would not be as bad.More so when you are bringing in a stray, I think they should cut you some slack.

I do not care for breeders breeding for show. I am not going to want a "show" dog. I don't care if the dog has the perfect this or that. I want a pet. I want a dog that is going to let my kids lay on them if they want. I want a dog that is going to play fetch and and run and play with me and my kids. I want the dog to be loving and trusting and protective of my children. I don't care that her great-grandmother was a winner in the ring or that her father was a champ. I think it's all nonsense and nothing more than snobery.

"My dog is a champion so-and -so? What has your dog won?"

"Ahhh, best farter?" [&:]

I'm not saying all people are like this. BUT I have met many that are. They think their dogs $h!t don't stink.  

Example: 3 years ago I see a sign that said "so-and-so Golden labrador"  I stoped to see if they had pups. Just my luck they did, so while I played with 8 little pups, the owner brought me out a brochure on the pups and went on to tell me that the mother was a champion this and the father was a champion that. I then was handed a BOOK on the family tree of the dog and different awards. The pups were $900 with a contract and papers. I just wanted a dog. I didn't want a fricken trophy dog.

I also believe vet charges are too much. If the vets didn't charge so much to have dogs/cats fixed the over population would not be as bad.More so when you are bringing in a stray, I think they should cut you some slack.

 
Ok I don't mean to hijack this thread but I just can't let this one go.  Vets are well underpaid for their service and years of schooling they had to go through.  If you were to compare any surgery a dog goes through compare to something similar to a human it's worth more then just a few hundred dollars where a similar surgery on a human cost in the thousands.  Vets have a business to run also and if they give too many breaks here and their, they can't afford to stay open.  I almost feel like I'm getting a discount paying so little for such a major surgery.  When I was a vet tech I only made $5.15/hr because that was what the vets could afford and if they paid their techs anymore they could not afford to have techs or would have to raise their prices.  Vets do not get the respect they deserve and if they were in it for the money they could have gone into human medicine instead.  If you want a discount on a spay contact you local ASPCA, they have the funds to help those in need, don't blame the vet for charging too much.

I'm not saying thet are in it for the money. My neighbor had 3 cats dropped off at her house that continued to breed and breed. She soon had a barn full of cats. She went to the HS and they said they were full. So she brought the female cat to get fixed since she was stuck with her she didn't want more kittens. $275 later she has a fixed barn cat that will probably run away.  I think that is unfair.
 
Another lady down the road found a lab in her back yard. She called HS and they said she would have to pay a fee to drop this dog off. The HS also asked if she could hold on tot he dog for a while longer because they didn't have much room. That is unfair that she should ahve to pay for an animal she wants out of her yard because of some useless owner. By the time she got the HS to take the dog in she had spent over $500 getting the dog all fixed at the vet. I think the HS should have given this women the money they collected in the sale of the dog.
 
So, I believe when it is in the circumstances like these that vets should give a discount.

3 years ago I see a sign that said "so-and-so Golden labrador" I stoped to see if they had pups. Just my luck they did, so while I played with 8 little pups, the owner brought me out a brochure on the pups and went on to tell me that the mother was a champion this and the father was a champion that. I then was handed a BOOK on the family tree of the dog and different awards. The pups were $900 with a contract and papers. I just wanted a dog. I didn't want a fricken trophy dog.

 
IMO, it sounds like this breeder was doing a lot of things right. They clearly knew a lot of the family history of each parent and had both of them proven in the show ring. Even if I was just looking for a pet, I would much rather have a dog whose parents have obedience titles, then someone who just says they both seem really smart (to them). I understand that it might sound cocky for her to brag about her dogs, but she's doing it because her dogs have been proven to be better then average. $900 is not that much to pay (assuming the dogs are health tested) when you consider the costs of dealing with problems like hip dysplacia, allergies or any of the numerous things that Labs are prone to when not properly screened.
 
Would you rather take a stranger#%92s word for it that their dogs are friendly, easy to train and stay calm in busy environments, rather than a breeder whose dogs who have proven to be all of the above?

It's not the vets responsibility to loose money because there are so many irresponsible owner.  The ASPCA has organization out there to help pay for spays/neuters in many cases.  Around here anyone can qualify for a $50 off coupon for a spay, they just have to call the shelter and ask for one.  The receptionist here will even tell a person when they make the appointment about the coupon if they complain about cost.  The vet doesn't loose a thing and the owner/foster parent gets a discount. 
 
The reason why that lady had to pay so much for that dog is because there are too many breeders out there that don#%92t care about what will happen to the litter and that is how they end up in shelters.  A good breeder will follow up on a puppy and if for any reason it does not fit in with the family the breeder will take the pup back and raise it themselves.  The show aspect of it all just guarantees that the breeder is breeding for all the correct reasons.
 
A friend of mine I once worked with is from Poland and he told me that they don#%92t have a pet overpopulation over there because every pet owner must pay a yearly fee.  The fee covers any vet cost so the owner doesn#%92t have to take it out of their pocket.  In a way I do agree that the cost of a spay here in America may be a big issue in the overpopulation of pets but don#%92t put the blame on the vet who is only doing their job, most vets I know stongly encorage all dogs to be fixed, not for money but because that is what they truly belive in.

Are you saying you are for the breeding of mutts?  Can you give me an example of a "lifestyle" for which we might be able to breed an acceptable mutt yet for which no acceptable breed exists currently?
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billy, i'm not sure where you got that thought from my words...a very large number of purebred dogs today are the result of crossbreeding done withon the past two hundred years, to make dogs fit a new role better...the example i gave of retreivers was one example...when i have more time, i will give many more examples...

a new role dogs have is being a family companion...i think there is nothing wrong with tampering with the current set of purebreeds to  make some of them more family friendly...i'm sure there are skilled breeders out there that can, and are in the middle of doing it...i am not against it in principle...i support it...i do not support irresponsible breeders, of any sort.

Angeltrudelle, I have to say your post about show breeders is incredibly insulting.  For the good breeders, and people like me who are going to breed for show/performance/work, your post is a slap in the face.
 
It costs me MORE to title my dog than you pay for a puppy.  Strauss's titles alone have put me out more than $300 so far.  We'll be well into the thousands by the time we're done with titles.  Tracking, Agility, Obedience, Rally, Schutzhund, it all costs money! 
 
I'm going to enter Strauss in everything but schutzhund and conformation at next year's National in colorado.  Guess how much his total entry fees will be costing me?  And mind you, this is just the ENTRY fees.   $250-300.  Yup, that's right.  That much.  I'm pouring THOUSANDS into this dog to show him and get him health tested...and he might not even be bred!
 
The good breeders aren't about the money.  The money is to cover expenses.  Yeah, maybe you "didn't want a frickin trophy dog", but we that show and title dogs...I can't express my disgust at the way you worded your post, and the light you put exhibitors like me in!  We're for breeding the best of the best, for healthy happy show AND pet AND working quality pets.
 
The breeder you ran into?  Sounds half decent.  Brought you out a big pedigree, showed you the titles of both parents, explained things to you....but the BREEDER is the snob?  I'd think again on that one.

Dogs that fit better into people's lifestyles?  Like, better than what?  There are breeders of wonderful purebreds on this very board that breed dogs that I bet make great companions.  Heck, my friend who I mentioned just bred her top working/competition bitch placed one of those pups with someone who lives downtown in a small urban area. 

It's not the dogs who have to change to fit.  It's up to the people choosing them to choose dogs (and there are SO many) that will fit in their home environment.

artbytara - your description of the home you got your pup from should be moved to    the "working" category.  All of my dogs, and those of many of my friends, live in the house with me (usually), poot around the farm when we are not moving sheep around, and are great companions in the car and visiting stores and whatnot.  Curly came directly from a farm, as I mentioned, and he's the most laidback, silly, sweet thing you can imagine, with a bomb-proof temperament (except for that fear of clanging metal).  He was definitely not raised in the house, but he fit in immediately.

I'm not arguing that BCs are great pets for Joe Suburbanite.  But for someone ready for everything the breed has to offer, a situation such as you descibe is exactly what I'm saying produces the best dogs.  There's a huge variety available in the working breed, because there's as many types of dogs as there are operations that use them.  But what they all have in common is that they DO perform the work that makes them all Border collies.  And they swap genetics as I mentioned - those crazy high performance dogs win trials and are used at stud by the farmers with huge operations.  They breed those pups and sell them to farmers who need a little less finesse and octane in a dog.  Then those might start breeding and either buy from the second tier guy or go straight to the guy with the top dogs. 

That just happened with my neighbor.  He didn't even know what breed of dog he had - he just knew how good the dog was. When it came time to retire him, he asked me whether I knew where to find another.  I recognized the breeding of the dog and sent him to the breeder who probably bred his dog.  He'll probably  buy a bitch pup and when she's older and trained, I bet he'll breed her to his good old retired dog. I know the tough work that goes on over there and what a young dog is exposed to.  He has young grandkids over there, and constant visitors and temporary farm workers.  He may also see about getting a better stud for her through her breeder.  I'd recommend any of those theoretical pups to anyone serious about owning a BC, even though they wouldn't even be registered (though they could be registered on merit).

All of this is how the Border collie breed has been maintained down the generations - maintained as a breed that is adaptable to anything.  I repeat, why change this approach to create something that exists in a zillion other breeds?

My post by no means meant to be a slap in the face. I was saying my opinion on why, I don't care if my dog's parents have been proven or not. Just because a dog has been proven to be well tempered does not mean that will always be the case.  Any dog can be the perfect dog and then one day bite someone.  You can not ever guarantee that you are selling someone the perfect dog. It's not possible.
My parents dog was proven, health tested and so on. He came from a long line of Champions. They paid $1000 for their dog and got a novel on the history of the dog and it's family. What good is it?  Are we going to sit around looking at the book of his ancestors?   "Hey, what a good looking dog you have there?"
 
"Well thank you, his parents have shown in the ring"
I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but it's the way I feel. I know there are alot of people who show and breed here. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it. IF that is what you want is a titled dog than fine, it's not for me. I could care less. Like I said I just want a plain old dog.
 
My parents bought their dog from a breeder who shows. She is highly known and ha won many times. My parents dog has had nothing but problems. Health, behaviour, temperment, and yet they were guaranteed these things would not happen.
 
I would give you the link to the breeders site, but people are too happy to take you to court these days. So I will not say the name of the people.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree that the vets aren't to blame.  I've b****** and moaned about several vet bills in my day, but ultimately I know that it's all fair.  I've known many vets that have cut a deal to people only because they're being nice and care about the cause.  We can't hold them responsible for undoing a problem that the world started a long time ago.  Everyone should do their share to help, but ultimately, it's not the Therapists job to work for free because parents screw their kids up.  It's not the grocery stores responsibility to feed the homeless.  I could go on forever.  But if it was my barn, and it had two cats in it that I was guessing weren't spayed, then I would trap them immediately and either have them fixed, or euthanized.  That right there would be a prime example of the population negligence.  People should plan ahead...fix or euthanize two cats...or fix or euthanize a "barnful of cats."  If they choose the first option, they should be happy that they were smart enought to help solve a major problem before it got worse.  If one were to choose the latter, then they shouldn't complain that the vets cost too much money because they now have a HUGE problem on their hands.  Granted she wasn't the one to start it by letting the first two cats run free, but that's the whole point in all of it.  She was in an unfortunate position since those cats chose her property.  If she didn't have the money for spay, then they should have been euthanized at a fraction of the cost.  She could have tried to find homes for them, but they shouldn't be passed on without being fixed.  Someone else's decision cost her some money.  But now, her lack of re-acting quickly has either cost her a lot of money, or cost someone else a lot of money.  I'm not trying to bash someone's decision making, cause we've all made bad decisions, but that's a prime example of what this thread's all about...bad breeding and lack of population control, resulting in a devastatingly overly populated world.  Back to the point, the vet have nothing to do with it.  If the vets offered a discount for every animal that needed help, it would become a volunteer organization and not a business.  I'm pretty confident that most vets do what they can to help out with the problem.  Just MO.

[quoteI can't express my disgust at the way you worded your post, and the light you put exhibitors like me in! ]
 
I said my opinion. The post was about breeding for standards, work or temperment and I expressed my opinion.  You have a dog that you are very proud of. You enjoy what you are doing and thats fine. I simply am saying it's not for me.
I do not ever intend on showing my dog. I do not care on the history on my dog. Just because his parents were well trained and obedient does not mean my dog will follow suit.  I'm sorry that you are so offended by what I said.

No, it doesn't mean your dog will follow suit...especially if the same training isn't put into it, but it DOES make it more likely.  I mean, if you go for rescues, yeah, history doesn't really matter, because you usually dont' KNOW the history....but for purebreds?

IT's foolish not to study and research if you're going to a breeder...a REAL breeder that knows what they're doing.  My next GSD will put me out $3000.  I'd rather pay $250 like I did with Strauss, but I won't get a show quality dog for that.  I'm not overall one for rescues unless I'm fostering.  But I just don't get how people breeding for the best are snobs.

They paid $1000 for their dog and got a novel on the history of the dog and it's family. What good is it?  Are we going to sit around looking at the book of his ancestors?   "Hey, what a good looking dog you have there?"

If you have to ask what good it is to have a history of the dog and family, you obviously don't understand breeding and the research that goes into that breeding.  A good breeder can tell you who died of what when, how old they were, who the owners were, and what health troubles run in the line.

Bloat and Torsion run in Strauss' line...I found that out on my own, no history of DM to my knowledge however.  A little bit of megaesophagus is in there as well.  If I didn't have my dog's lineage history, I wouldn't know that!
 

My parents dog has had nothing but problems.

Crap happens.  A common misconception is that people think that if a good breeder sells them a dog, the dog comes perfect and will have no health issues.  This is not true. 
 
By health testing and showing, and tracking lines, the dog's they produce are less likely to have health issues.  It does not completely dissolve the problems within the lines and breed(s) involved.  There have been top show dog's that fell over dead due to toxic gut, and others who bloated and then torsioned.  They came from good lines.  It happens.  You have to stack the odds in your favor, but you can't expect no problems at all.