I may be dumb but... (questions you were always curious about)(please answer or ask)

how can you be so sure that it doesn't hurt the puppy?

I just remembered one of the reasons some people dock the tails. May sound like a silly story but some people truly belive this. A friend of my grandpa does this with his dogs and thats where I first hear it from, kinda hard to convince people that their old ways are not true. It was said that if you cut off a dogs tail and burry it in your yard that the dog will never wonder away because it wants to stay close to it's tale.

ORIGINAL: Xeph

Doberman ears were originally cropped to prevent a would be theif from grabbing at it.  A cropped dogs ears, when laid flat against the head, are exceedingly hard to grab and hold onto, as they are slender, and thus, a bit slippery.  The tail was docked to prevent the dog from being grabbed, as was stated.

Rottie tails were docked in order to prevent them from being stepped on by livestock.  Yes, other herding dogs have tails, but it all has to do with carriage and the herding style of the particular breed.

Speaking of dobe's, I don't believe the tail was docked to prevent police dogs from being grabbed by the tail.  If that was true, then they'd have done it to the GSDs too.

This is incorrect.  The GSD was NOT originally a police dog!  In fact, the first dogs used in police work were Tervurens.  The GSD was originally a herding dog, and when machinery and what not made herding easier, the GSD was slowly phased out.  Max von Stephanitz (father of the GSD breed) did not want to see the breed die out, and thus, the breed test of schutzhund was born, and that is how dogs were tested for breed worthiness and soundness.

I personally prefer the look of a cropped and docked dog to natural.  I see many natural eared Boxers these days.  I'm used to it.  Still don't like it.  Not partial to natural eared Dobies and Danes as I feel they look like hounds rather than their respective breeds.  Though I can deal with natural ears...I absolutely CANNOT stand Rotties and Dobes wtih natural tails.  Yuck for me.[align=right]

 
 
 
I know that GSDs were originally used for herding, since then they've become quite popular as police & military dogs, among other things.  The rotts have become popular as police dogs also, but they haven't started to crop their ears.
 
My point was that if dobes ears were cropped, tail docked to prevent thieves from grabbing at them, and the rotties tails' docked to prevent livestock from stepping on them, then WHY was this practice not carry into all the herding/working breeds for these reasons?  Not all (I'll use working as a general term here) working dogs looks are altered.
 
I still think it's vanity.  I do agree, at first, some breeds look odd natural.  That look was created by someone's idealism.  I must admit that I too think a boxer & dobe with docked tail but natural ears looks takes some getting used too.  But, I've seen photos of the dogs all natural, before altering became popular, and they are beautiful, esp. the dobes!  
 
What infuriates me is that some BYBs, esp. in S Florida, don't feel the need to bring the pups to a vet for the procedure.  Where they come from, the ears are done with a pair of scissors and the tail with a machete.  Quote "it's just a pup, it son't feel no pain"  Argh!!
Then these poor pups end up with serious infections, many require further surgery, some end up with "stubs" for ears, some die!  All for vanity!! [sm=banghead002.gif]

I have a pembroke welsh corgi and can't imagine her with a tail.I much prefer the pembrokes to the cardigans. The corgi was originally docked, so the farmers didn't have to pay taxes.At three days old, a rubber band is wrapped around the pups tail and it falls off naturally. I don't think it hurts the pup and its in no way inhumane.

Some of the history of the tail docking goes back to the origins of the lines and taxes on working dogs. "Gentlemen's dogs" tended to have whole tails as they were not hunted/worked as rigorously. Dogs that put food on the table tended to get their tails docked. Long range dogs of every type (hill herders, upland bird dogs, lurchers, coursers) kept whole tails as they are useful for locating the dog. Then it became fashionable to institute taxes on working dogs - but sportsmen (terriers and birders) had an exemption created for docked dogs. Drovers and other people who kept multiple working dogs, reacted by routinely docking tails on their dogs.

All of this happened before most of today's breeds were standardized. So the drover dogs were the smooth coated mastiff-types that were the predecessors of Rotts, etc, would date their tail docking tradition back to when they were driving sheep and cattle to market. They share that tradition with some of the ancestors of the bull breeds, the Old English Sheepdog, the Bouv des Flanders, and the Basque sheepdog.

Whether a herding dog was docked or not was more or less linked to whether it worked in pens and chutes a good bit, or not. Border collies have intact tails and work cattle in and out of pens as much as (or possibly even more than) the traditional cattle herding breeds (and don't seem to have a huge incidence of injured tails, by the way - legs and heads are more of a problem from what I've seen).

But the difference is that the BC worked the hills, sometimes over a mile from the handler, and the tail was useful in helping to spot the dog. Ditto the Bearded and rough collie and the English shepherd, which all share the same origins from the Border hills herding dogs. They'd no more whack off that useful flag than they would take off the dog's nose. They were downright snobbish about it, in fact, judging from some of the contemporary literature.

From my understanding, tail docking is supposed to be done before the pain impulses set in, at about a day old. That's when we dock baby lambs' tails and they certainly don't seem to have a problem with it. I think it really is a simple snip for both tails and dewclaws? Ear cropping is a different matter [shudder]. On our sheep, we have to tatoo and pierce ears with a tag, for government id purposes, and that's bad enough. At least I can sympathize, having had my own ears pierced before! []

ORIGINAL: houndlove

Seriously though, a huge number of hunting breeds have natural tails. There's only a few that are traditionally docked. And similarily, a large number of gaurdian breeds are also always have natural ears and tails, it's only a few breeds that don't. It's just tradition, and I really don't see that as a good enough reason to perform surgery on a puppy.

That's what the Australian RSPCA decided. They also decided the pups could certainly feel the pain of having tails cut off at an early age because they yelped and cried. My corgi has a docked tail, and I kinda like it. But her mum had a natural tail and that was cute, too. Over here, we're just going to have to get used to our corgis with natural tails, and breed the natural bob if we want no tail. I don't see a problem with that at all. Swedish Vallhunds used to have their tails docked, but it became illegal to do it, so now you can get natural bobs, flags and natural tails for all preferences.

then WHY was this practice not carry into all the herding/working breeds for these reasons?

Because not all dogs are in "the thick of things" when they herd.  Dogs like the German Shepherd Dog that are tenders (a living fence) do not move the herd, they trot around it.  The chances of their tail getting stepped on is small, hence why they have a tail.
 

I saw a breeding study where with a single out-breeding (to a corgi) they produced a line of boxers who were born with natural stubby tails. They looked exactly like boxers.

 
But how many puppies were "Throw aways", and how many "throw aways" did the first generation of this outcross create? 

By the way, a small side note. You can't breed for bobbed tails. There is a lethal birth defect associated with bobbed tails which is dangerous to concentrate. This is why it's done after birth if it is needed for utilitarian reasons, rather than fixed in the breeds through selection. Hence, not all Aussies have natural bobs and they will keep it that way. The full bob rate is about 25% if I'm not mistaken, in all "natural" bobbed breeds.

wether for purpose, vantiy, or tradition i dont think tail docking is all that horrible. taping and gluing a dogs ears i find strange, but what can ya do.
 
my mom had my ears peirced when i was 1 years old. it was done soley out of her vanity, and i dont even wear earrings now. but ya know what, i dont think she's a monster and while im sure it hurt at the time i dont htink any less of her for it. im sure anyone can figure out what im getting at.

ORIGINAL: brookcove

By the way, a small side note. You can't breed for bobbed tails. There is a lethal birth defect associated with bobbed tails which is dangerous to concentrate.

I know someone who breeds vallhunds and manx cats. She stopped with the manx cats because some of the kittens were born with a defect related to the tailless condition in which the anus wasn't formed properly, I think. She had the same problem with natural bob vallhunds, but to a lesser degree, I guess because not all vallhunds are bobs. Our vallhund only has about 2 verterbrae in his natural bob tail and he can't move it at all.

When it comes down to it, I just don't think it's fair to do something like that to a dog just because it's tradition or you like the look of it. I wouldn't take to cutting toes off if it came into fashion for some purely cosmetic reason. I don't see that there's a great deal of difference in this day and age when most dogs are pets. It's not like piercing ears, it's more like cutting off ear lobes.

I know it's easy to dismiss it when the prevailing attitude is that it's no big deal, but if it's no big deal, then why has it been outlawed in a bunch of countries?

Whether a herding dog was docked or not was more or less linked to whether it worked in pens and chutes a good bit, or not. Border collies have intact tails and work cattle in and out of pens as much as (or possibly even more than) the traditional cattle herding breeds (and don't seem to have a huge incidence of injured tails, by the way - legs and heads are more of a problem from what I've seen).

 
Yes and there are many fatalities in the hearding group that have nothing to do with weather the tail was docked or not.  I have seen a well trained cattle dog get knocked in the head so many times that one final blow sent it into a comma and that was the end for that dog, it never once had its non-docked tail hurt.  What#%92s even sadder is in the western culture if the dog is hurt while on the job the rancher will just shoot it there on the spot.  They just can#%92t afford to drag a hurt dog around.  Imagine if something happens to the tail and it's bleeding everywhere, then the rancher is going to just have to put it out.  It's best for the rancher to have the tails docked and have one less thing to worry about.  I#%92m sure there are other reasons for cattle dogs to have their tails docked but certainly never for cosmetic reasons. Even their looks are the least of the concern for the rancher, if the dog can do the job well then it's a good dog.  Basically, their tails are docked so that the rancher has a good team of cattle dogs.  Yes, I do think many of their views on how to treat a dog are somewhat cruel and I don#%92t agree with a lot of it but docking a tail is nothing compared to what else could happen out in the Wild West.  This same breed of dog could be used for the same purpose but in anouther place in the world and the rancher there my have different ideas of how  to treat a dog.  I come from a line of rancher/farmers so I hear all the time how things "back then" were done, not the best way but did set the standards to why people do what they do with thier dogs today in my area.
 
I haven#%92t seen docking as much in sheep hearders so just my wild guess that perhaps there is less danger in hearding seep over cattle and the need to dock a tail is much less.  Also could come from what the cultural believes were for the dogs while the breed was developing.
 

What#%92s even sadder is in the western culture if the dog is hurt while on the job the rancher will just shoot it there on the spot.  They just can#%92t afford to drag a hurt dog around. 

Ack. I know a LOT of ranchers and I've never heard of this. May have been true years ago but a good trained dog is worth thousands and thousands today, not to mention most of the folks I know consider their dogs to be as good as human partners. Heck, they like their dogs better than most people, who are useless around cattle and have never saved their lives.

If euthanasia has to be performed on the spot for some reason, it's not "just shooting the dog". It's done with a broken heart, and most of us, thank God, will never know the pain of having to both make that decision AND execute it.

Most of the ranchers I know also feel that if the tail is in a position to be stepped on, 90% of the time, the dog is definitely not working right. A dog will correctly face the stock at all times, never turning tail to allow the stock time to get aggressive, never hesitating in a chute to make the stock nervous, keeping the back to the corner in pens (or on the flank for cattle) to quiet the stock and move them out calmly. I'm talking about a good trained dog, not a yard dog yapping and heel biting.

As I said, the breeds that now are "cut" came from natural bob tailed breeds (which all worked sheep 95% of the time, not cattle - cattle were not kept in great numbers until long after all these breeds were established) and it just became traditional to continue. And the fanciers of these dogs continued the just-so stories that the tail is somehow in danger. I agree with those who say that it's silly to continue to cut tails in this day when a) medicine can save a tail more often than not in case of accident, b) 80% of dogs are not used in their traditional roles anymore and c) the practice has in reality everything to do with vanity and nothing to do with actual practical reasons.

I haven#%92t seen docking as much in sheep hearders so just my wild guess that perhaps there is less danger in hearding seep over cattle and the need to dock a tail is much less. 

PS, docked "sheep herding" breeds (but see my note above that when all the herding breeds were developing, sheep were the number one stock anywhere - cattle weren't generally herded in huge numbers anywhere but Africa):

Basque sheepdog - father of Australian shepherd, McNab, and heelers - but bobbed characteristic only retained in the Aussie and McNab and various working curs of the Americas.

Continental curly coated "water dog" - Spanish water dog direct descendant - all the water dogs, all the rough coated UK sheepdogs - bobbed characteristic retained in dogs that went with Merino stock - two or three English breeds that worked Down breeds, with only remaining modern line being the "Old English". There's also several bobbed continental sheepdogs that aren't seen much here such as the Pyrenean (though Thomas Jefferson tried very hard to make this dog the US national sheepdog) and the Catalonian.

On the other hand, there's an equal number of examples of breeds with entire tails that work cattle.

So the cattle/sheep argument simply doesn't hold water.

I don't knw if the shooting of the dogs is being practiced any more and I hope it's not.  My grandpa tells me these stories about his cattle hearding days and many of them were not prity.  Their view of dogs are no where near what they are today.

Personally I am not a vain person and I believe in the health and wellness first for my dogs....not vaniety[]  I've owned Dobe's with tail and ears done and during the taping process etc it was uncomfortable for them.  I would never put a dog through that again.  Plus, the reactions of people towards undocked/uncropped Rottie's and Dobes is amazing.  Dog's can learn to be offensive/bully...everytime a human steps away from a certain dog in fear the dog learns to be a bit more offensive.  We deal with many Rotties, Boxer's, Dobe's which are au natural and many that have been docked and cropped...the difference in their personalities are amazing.  Anyone will approach the Rottie with the natural tail.   Plus, unnatural cropping and docking may have been OK in the feild..but, in our society today where we do not work our dogs in household lifestyles...dogs with natural ears and tails are better understood by other dogs.  A dog with unnatural docked tail has a harder time expressing itself....same with ears. 
 
Other things to consider is tail docking is an amputation and experts say that dogs with docked tails do not sit in a relaxed fashion which keeps the back muscles and hindquarter chronically tense...this can lead to problems....and has been proven by experts. 
 
The world small animal veterinary association cites the possible formation of painful scar tissue, or neuromas, as one reason that tail docking should be made illegal.  The contraction or shrinking of the scar may effect a pull on the nerves and the dura that surrounds the spinal cord and brain.  Also the tail improves the dogs balance when left natural.
 
There are many resources and experts who have written reasons why both docking and cropping are harmful to the dogs health and well being...as well as trainer Turid Rugaas explains why it's harder for a dog to communicate when they have unnatural docking and cropping.
 
So, in this day and age the only reason people have it done is vaniety. I currently have a backyard bred Dobe (rescue) with au natural tail and ears.  In my eyes he is beautiful and moves much nicer than my docked and cropped Dobes in the past.  He uses his tail for balance, and his ears are very expressive where my cropped Dobes were not.  People approach him and think he is so cute, my cropped/docked dobes were rarely approached as people were intimidated.