More for breeding or Rescuing? Both?

Misty May (?) 1988 to Feb 17, 2005, given to us by a relative of my first wife who found her on the street.
 
Shadow, re-homed to us from a dysfunctional home to avoid euthanasia.
 
Jade, literally, picked out of a tree at a friend's house, when the kitty wasn't sleeping under the car. She had bits of grease on her ears and tail. Nothing but bones.
 
I've never had to buy a pet. People often offer me pets they've found and can't keep.
 
Even though, after a few months of overtime, I could afford a pure pup, I've seen too many purebreds at the shelter. In the dogs I have seen, it's not even a case of bad temperment but a case of original owner ignorance. Example, Sibes wind up there because they don't act like Goldens or Labs. Would I like a pure Sibe pup? Sure. And 10 years from now, I will find one at the shelter. Why? Because I can depend on humans to do the wrong thing.
 
True, breeding should only be done after a waiting list is developed. What if someone backs out. Moving, loss of income, whatever? Where does that pup go?
 
My standard phrase is, your dog is waiting for you at the shelter. You just didn't know that, yet.
 
Do some shelter dogs have problems? Yes. So do some from a breeder dogs. I don't know yet if accentuating the negative at a shelter is helping anything. We could just euth them all and avoid any unknowns. But, the shelter would be full again in a few days.

I have had many wonderful shelter dogs in my lifetime...never had a purebred until the cockers and that was sort of accidental.  I've been called a breed bigot and a dog nazi for owning purebreds and I've had my mixed breeds insulted as mutts or mongrels.  Guess it takes all kinds.
 
I consider the three "failed" fosters to be rescues despite the fact that they never spent a minute in the shelter....

Obviously the purebred dog fancy is a huge group, and not without some merit.  I would like to see a shift toward function over form, and more concern over genetic defects in some breeds.  That said, while I have had several purebreds over my lifetime, all but one were rehomes or rescues.  I am totally in favor of rescue (so long as the dogs are behaviorally sound), and I think that anyone who is a responsible breeder should participate in rescue in some way, and should make the commitment to accept back any pups they have bred, regardless of the reason.  I also think that breeders should be honest about any genetic problems that crop up in their lines, and promptly stop breeding any affected dogs.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Obviously the purebred dog fancy is a huge group, and not without some merit.  I would like to see a shift toward function over form, and more concern over genetic defects in some breeds.  That said, while I have had several purebreds over my lifetime, all but one were rehomes or rescues.  I am totally in favor of rescue (so long as the dogs are behaviorally sound), and I think that anyone who is a responsible breeder should participate in rescue in some way, and should make the commitment to accept back any pups they have bred, regardless of the reason.  I also think that breeders should be honest about any genetic problems that crop up in their lines, and promptly stop breeding any affected dogs.

Well said. That I completely agree with. Sometimes people lie about their "mistakes," or whatever you want to call them and that is definitely not the way to go. If there is something wrong be honest about it and learn from the mistake instead of getting tied up in ego and lying (so many breeders do this if something happens to a litter, etc).

I've been asked to take a pregnant doxie, but I know NOTHING about them so I'm not real sure I want to go there.

Doxies tend to have a rough time whelping, and often require c sections. It's the horrible shape of their bodies. I'd love to see a litter of Dachshund pups snuggled up against Thor, though[]

I believe that responsible breeders are necessary, if we want dogs bred for a purpose. If we want dogs with predictable sizes, appearances, and temperaments, we need good breeders.

That said, I dunno if I'll ever buy from a breeder. I'm looking into it, but I'm not sure I'll be able to do it.

I am curious about what is so "harsh" about not wanting to deal with other people's mistakes.

I feel that the context was clear: when I say mistakes, I mean behavior problems, sometimes serious, that come from not understanding that a dog is a living creature that needs to be socialized and trained.

I don't mean that the dogs are mistakes. The dogs are just dogs--the humans are the ones with both the agency and the responsibility.

I am not a dog owner because I want to save dogs. I am a dog owner because I enjoy the company of dogs. What's so harsh about that?

I am perfectly capable of dealing with a behavioral issue or two as you all know, but trainers don't often own problem dogs - they are too tired of fixing everyone else's LOL!
But, my dogs are:
Dancer - rehomed when her first mom needed to get out of a bad relationship (the woman was disabled and escaping domestic violence and had to go to a human shelter - no dogs allowed).
Fergie - adopted when BF's mom died and left her an orphan
Sioux - shelter puppy
Maska - shelter dog
Sequoyah - from a breeder
One reason I chose to get the last one from a breeder, is that I wanted a stockdog type Aussie.  I am well aware that epilepsy runs in Aussies, although less in the working lines, and wanted to reduce the possibility that it would affect my dog.  This dog may live until I am 70, so I wanted to make sure that she was a purebred and could be rehomed by the breeder if my designated caregiver couldn't take her at the time of my demise.  (I hope I still have one more dog in me after this one...not aiming to go before my time or anything)  I didn't want her to end up a middle aged or elderly dog with nowhere to go but the kill shelter if I kick off.  She isn't a dog that can go to just any good home, like the others could.  She would need someone that understands the working Aussie.

ORIGINAL: fisher6000

I am curious about what is so "harsh" about not wanting to deal with other people's mistakes.

I feel that the context was clear: when I say mistakes, I mean behavior problems, sometimes serious, that come from not understanding that a dog is a living creature that needs to be socialized and trained.

I don't mean that the dogs are mistakes. The dogs are just dogs--the humans are the ones with both the agency and the responsibility.

I am not a dog owner because I want to save dogs. I am a dog owner because I enjoy the company of dogs. What's so harsh about that?

To me, it just seems harsh because you can quite often, rescue a dog that has no history of problems. It seems that you are putting all into the category that they would all have some sort of issue. That is not true. You can find many puppies in shelters ready for adoption as well as older dogs who don't have baggage behind them. IMO, I find it very rewarding to help a dog and show them that there are "nice" and "good" people, too. I love the outcome of changing the life of a dog (for example, an abused dog that learns to trust again). This is just my opinion but I think what I found harsh about your sentence was that it seemed like you were putting all shelter dogs into one category: Issue-related.

ORIGINAL: spiritdogs

Obviously the purebred dog fancy is a huge group, and not without some merit.  I would like to see a shift toward function over form, and more concern over genetic defects in some breeds.  That said, while I have had several purebreds over my lifetime, all but one were rehomes or rescues.  I am totally in favor of rescue (so long as the dogs are behaviorally sound), and I think that anyone who is a responsible breeder should participate in rescue in some way, and should make the commitment to accept back any pups they have bred, regardless of the reason.  I also think that breeders should be honest about any genetic problems that crop up in their lines, and promptly stop breeding any affected dogs.

Very well put.

I am actually on both sides of the proverbial fence here.  I think that responsible breeding is very important to the soundness and natural abilities of purebred dogs.  I also agree that function is just as important as form.  Most of the breed standards were written with this is mind, yet the breeders so often get away from those standards and we end up with retrievers that don't retrieve, pointers that don't point and herders that won't herd.  This is unacceptable in my opinion.

I also agree with rescue.  Rescue should be done by breeders, parent clubs and ultimately humane societies for non-purebred dogs.  I advocate the adoption of dogs more than the adoption of puppies.  One of my favorite dogs is a 9 year old lab that a friend of mine adopted.  I don't know the story, I don't want to know how anyone could turn in a 9yr old dog.  Especially such a sweetie.

So Wednesday I will have a purebreed that I purchased and then another which is in rescue right now.  So I say that I am on both sides, I believe in both equally.

 think what I found harsh about your sentence was that it seemed like you were putting all shelter dogs into one category: Issue-related.

Most shelter/rescue dogs do have issues, even the puppies because they either haven't been raised with the mother the length of time needed or they haven't had the socialization, early training the breeder generally starts.
 
I am a breeder and I also rescue and foster. I always had mixed breed dogs until I got my first Pit Bull rescue(1992) who I bought to save. She was a fighting dog. She led me to pure bred Am Staffs and showing.
Baggage comes even with the best intentions or hopes. It is a special person IMO who can give their heart to dogs who's past is unknown as well as behavior and health. I'm working with a woman right now who has an ILP Am Staff(Pit Bull) Last weekend she achieved her rally novice and today she got her first leg on her Advanced Novice OFF LEAD!
 
It all depends on the person, life style, patience levels and dog/training knowledge. I don't think one way or the other is rigfht OR wrong

That makes sense. I was speaking to the original question, which was polemical, so I was arguing a side like you asked. I am more for working with a responsible breeder. I think it makes more sense in terms of the whole problem as a big-picture thing.

I have gotten !!!great!!! amazing dogs from shelters. And dogs that I have loved but who have made me prematurely grey. And I had a bad experience. And I guess what I take from that is that it's a crap shoot. Just like getting a pup from a breeder.

But the thing is that responsible breeders don't want to give their dogs to you at first--they will be painfully honest with you about all the reasons you don't want this dog. And finding and working with responsible breeders puts you in a research frame of mind that makes it harder to be swayed by emotion. It becomes a decision that you can really take your time to make. Smartly. And *that* makes for less of a crap shoot. That change in time frame and perspective and emotional distance.

To contrast, every shelter dog I have gotten was somewhat of an impulse adoption. And pair that with the fact that there are honest shelter folks and less honest shelter folks (ie, there are shelter people who will swear up and down that a dog is unaggressive. And then when you say two weeks later that the dog bites, they will nod their heads and say "yup, he bit me too."), and the fact that the whole thing is emotional--going to the shelter is emotional! Who doesn't want to take them all home??????

And I think that makes it harder to make a good choice. Impossible? No. But harder. Because it's all about need---dogs needing homes. Just like pet stores, where dogs sell themselves because they look miserable in little glass boxes. You want to buy them to save them.

My argument is that I am going to be happier removing myself from that equation. I don't want to save a dog, because too often saving a dog comes with baggage (both my own and the dog's). I want to live with a dog.

And people are going to argue with me, but I am going to go ahead and be an idealist. If nobody thought about dogs in terms of need (that puppy needs me, or I need a dog right now, or this dog is going to die if I don't save him), then the market for pet store pups would dry up. And fewer adolescent pups would flood the shelters (secondary puppy mill outlets). And responsible breeders could keep taking their dogs back and participating in rescue. And fewer dogs would die.

And there would still be dogs floating around in need of homes if folks wanted to pay less, get an adult, or any of the other non-need based reasons to get a dog from a shelter.

ORIGINAL: ShepherdLuvR



I'm curious, what exactly are those reasons? This is just for my own knowledge and by no means is this question meant sarcastically.

ORIGINAL: orangedog

I think both responsible breeders and rescues are wonderful, I can't say as I'm for or against either. However, that being said, I prefer to get my dogs from breeders for numerous reasons and 99% of my future dogs will come from breeders.

 
My reasons are simply because I'd like to show my dogs in conformation aswell as obedience...both of which you can't do unless you have a registered purebred over here. That, and I also enjoy having a good relationship with a breeder and I'll also know my pup's parents (or atleast one of them) and will get a rough idea of what my dog is going to be like as an adult. It is also very hard to find the breeds that I like in a shelter or rescue. I've also had horrible experiences with the shelter and am very uncomfortable with ever getting a dog from there again.

ORIGINAL: ShepherdLuvR

To me, it just seems harsh because you can quite often, rescue a dog that has no history of problems. It seems that you are putting all into the category that they would all have some sort of issue. That is not true. You can find many puppies in shelters ready for adoption as well as older dogs who don't have baggage behind them. IMO, I find it very rewarding to help a dog and show them that there are "nice" and "good" people, too.

In my limited experience, I haven't met a single rescued dog that didn't have some kind of issue that popped up unexpectedly several weeks after they came home. Or months, even. I'm sure there are wonderful dogs in shelters that are completely unchanged by their experiences, but I also know there are dogs that yo-yo in and out of shelters a number of times before they either find the right home or are euthanised. I can totally understand your enjoyment in showing rescue dogs how great life with people can be, but I think sometimes people rescue a dog and aren't prepared for the problems they might have to overcome. Certainly not saying anything against shelters or rescue dogs in general, I just worry that people blindly rush into rescueing and can't visualise the work they might have to do because they're so distracted by the poor puppy that needs them.

Personally, I watch the dogs that come into my local shelters, but I'm looking forward to buying a puppy from a breeder I've established a good raport with and know I can always give a buzz if I need help or advice. I would still snatch up a rescue dog if he was just exactly what I was looking for, though, even knowing that I might be in for a lot of work to undo whatever rubbish his last owner did to him.

I personally prefer to buy a pup from a breeder that I have researched and talked to many times.  I like to know what my dog will look like as an adult.  I have a 7 year old, and I dont know that i could trust a rescue adult dog to not bite him.  I dont leave him alone with the dogs I do have, or anyone elses dog either.  I am glad there are people out there that can and do adopt dog from shelters I just cant do it now, maybe after my son is older, then we will see.  I also like to show and want to do obediance, both require a regestered dog here as well.

You raise good points, Fisher. And I certainly find nothing wrong with preferring to get a dog from a breeder. You've sought the breed, jumped through hoops for the breeder, spent a considerable sum on deposit money, etc. Saved up money towards initial vetting, eventual s/n, health certs, maybe want to show, which can require specialized training, travel, whatever. All that speaks to massive desire to have this dog and be motivated for its care.
 
In a perfect world, the only time you would have dogs in a shelter is when, say, if Anne were to pass away, as she writes in her post. Then, you would have her dogs there, with specific instructions and the dogs would be well cared for until proper homes could be found, such as a sheep ranch for the working Aussie. And a couple of oops litters a year. A tornado hit and tore down the fence and an intact animal got out and met another intact animal. Then, the shelter could either hold the pups until adoptable or euth at the outset, as a litter with no "specific purpose" in mind.
 
Alas, not a perfect world, but one in which we can all do the best we can, including owning both shelter dogs and purebreds, which are sometimes, one and the same, sans pedigree.
 
I don't think you are uncaring for preferring a purposefully bred purebreed that you obviously put research, hard-earned money, and time into having in your life. As I have said before, go for the dog you want and it can motivate you to great things.
 
I suppose I identify with shelter dogs. In some ways, I've been there, done that.