Facet Joints - Injected, Updated Update, Page 5

personal champ

Long term relief is REQUIRED, because I've yet to find a painkiller (Percoset, Vicodin, Tramadol) that I can take without vomiting. Bleh. 

Kelly, have you tried taking these meds after coating your stomach with slippery elm?
 
Are you using Knox Nutra Joint regularly? 

Original: tashakota

I have a high tolerance for anethesia so I think that's why it hurt the first time.

OT, but a semi-related funny.  My ex-MIL scared her doctors to death during abdominal surgery.  There were no problems with the surgery itself and my ex-MIL was feeling no pain, but she was awake and started talking to her doctors.  That really startled them and they wanted to know if she was in pain!!  Talk about a weird response to the surgery meds.

tashakota, I had a second and third set of injections. Overall, I would have to say that they provided some, but not complete, relief, but it wasn't lasting. The first and second sets of injections were 2 weeks apart, and let's say that I was ready to go back in 10 days. The second and third set was 3 weeks apart, and the Saturday before I hurt myself filling my dog's water bowl. I lived on Vicodin until Monday, when the injecting Doctor had the gall to say that I was doing well - HELLO, I SURVIVED THE LAST 48 HOURS ON VICODIN! Idiots...
 
Anyway, the third set didn't do much - I suspect because my back was so sore. I have a follow-up appointment on the 30th with the injecting doctor. I am still taking painkillers as necessary, and since Vicodin doesn't make me vomit now, I have been riding a bit more. One difference is that my MRI didn't show arthritis in my facet joints, so you may have more luck than I did.

I also saw a neurosurgeon, who told me that I'll be back in 10-15 years for surgery, but that he doesn't think it's awful enough to do it now, nor does he want to. He told me to inject or take painkillers, anything I can do to deal with it, for as long as I can, because he is afraid of the scar tissue I would get. He would rather operate at 35 than 25, basically. [:'(]
 
Janet, I never tried slippery elm. I have been on the Nutra Joint since I started this thread, whenever that was - June? May? Along the lines of the anesthesia thing, my dad did the same as your ex-MIL when they were reconstructing his thumb, LOL.

He would rather operate at 35 than 25, basically.

I'm 32... []  and been this way since I was 24....  A neurosurgeon also said I could do surgery but that centralling herniated discs don't cause problems.  Doesn't the spinal canal run down centrally to the spine?  Doesn't it seem like that might be a problem then?

I'm going to get the MRI's next week, so I'll let you know what mine find...

ORIGINAL: tashakota
A neurosurgeon also said I could do surgery but that centralling herniated discs don't cause problems.  Doesn't the spinal canal run down centrally to the spine?  Doesn't it seem like that might be a problem then?

 
THEY SAID THE SAME THING TO ME! That, and that mine (L5-S1) is lower than the spinal cord, "so it shouldn't be a problem". Bite Me. [:@]

The spinal cord actually ends at the level of L1, there are nerves still in the canal lower called the cauda equina or "horses tail" (thought you might like that Kelly .  It frequently does not cause a problem to have a herniated disc there, but if you have symptoms then clearly you do have a problem.  Hope you feel better soon!

The new avatar looks like it should be framed, how cute!
 
Edit: have you tried darvocet or norco?  Sometimes people have better luck on these for pain.

Bite Me. [:@]

Ditto.  It's so, so frustrating to not have a definitive diagnosis.  And living on pain meds is not a solution, IMO.  I'm currently doing naproxen and muscle relaxers.... I don't think it's  helping much.

The spinal cord actually ends at the level of L1, there are nerves still in the canal lower called the cauda equina or "horses tail" (thought you might like that Kelly .  It frequently does not cause a problem to have a herniated disc there, but if you have symptoms then clearly you do have a problem.  Hope you feel better soon!

So my herniated disc at L5 -L4 is also not impinging on the spinal cord?  Interesting.....  Most of the time, my pain is on one side or the other, but a "bad episode" is pain right in the middle....

[font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][size="2"]Found this on that page I sent you with the 3-D diagram of the anatomy.

Non-operative treatment for low backache from degenerative facet joints is empirical. It is unusual for a precise diagnosis to be made, confirmed by specialist investigations. Typically the patient will consult a practitioner such as a chiropractor and osteopath, or a physiotherapist, who will make an assessment, based more on clinical grounds than investigations. The therapy initiated may or may not be helpful, but evidence for efficacy is singularly lacking. The studies that have been performed have made no attempt at a precise diagnosis beyond the term �mechanical low back pain�, and have therefore lumped all possible clinical conditions together. The lack of scientific data supporting the use of mechanical therapy has to be balanced against the benign nature of such treatment. Many patients with recurrent low back pain will receive regular effective treatment from the �mechanical� practitioner, which enables a more rapid return to normal than the natural history of such symptoms. [/size][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][size="2"] [/size][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][size="2"] The use of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) is logical and can be effective, but this is unlikely to influence the natural history of the condition. If the clinical problem is dealing with a flare-up of symptoms against a background of low backache, then a short course of NSAIDs may be sufficient to control the situation until the status quo has resumed. [/size][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][size="2"] [/size][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][size="2"] For patients who have more intrusive and persistent symptoms, it is possible to more precisely localize the source of symptoms by using a SPECT scan corroborated with facet joint injections using local anesthetic and cortisone. The facet joint capsule will usually allow 1.5-2.0mls to be injected, and either CT or image-intensifier guidance is required once the SPECT scan has identified the inflamed level(s). The cortisone will work for between 8-12 weeks, and can be repeated at this stage if the symptoms recur significantly. Some clinicians advocate a course of three injections over a six-week period. Whichever strategy is used, a proportion of patients will be helped and, in some, the symptoms will recur and persist. In these patients radio-frequency denervation of the facet joints has a role. This procedure is performed under sedation and local anesthetic, and requires the precise localization of the sensory branch to the facet joint. A controlled thermo-coagulation is then performed which prevents conduction in the nerve. There is a tendency for the nerve to regenerate over a period of up to 18 months and further treatments may be required in the future. [/size][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][size="2"] [/size][/font][font="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"][size="2"] If minimally invasive treatments have localized the pain source but failed to achieve sustained pain relief and the symptoms are sufficiently severe, a localized facet joint fusion may be undertaken to remove the articular surfaces and prevent movement of the affected joints. This may work well if it is the lowest facet joints that are affected (L5/S1), but the decision is more difficult if proximal joints are involved. [/size][/font]

Kelly, thanks for that info. I'm not saying that my facet joints aren't irritated, just that, even when they do feel better from the injections, I still have this burning, nagging pain that shoots sideways and down my butt cheek.

The avatar pic is actually a mini photo shoot we did with him for work today - we shot him with that toy and a no-bark collar. He was so good!
 
I haven't tried darvocet or norco, the doctor said darvocet would make me sick since I can't take percoset?
 
Tashakota, pain meds aren't a solution for me, either - they're a band aid. Naproxen and muscle relaxers didn't do you know what for me. Funny too, how you describe your pain. Initially, mine was all in the left side. Then I did something that made me bed ridden for a day or so, and that pain was in the right. Now, it's usually in the right, but if it's being god-awful, it's like an elephant is standing on my lower back, doing a pioruette (sp?).
 
That radio frequency crap is what they want to do to me next, since the injections were relatively successful but not lasting. I still say that something is going on other than the joints though - the joints ached, like a toothache, but the real pain is a combo of being on fire and punched, repeatedly.

That radio frequency crap is what they want to do to me next, since the injections were relatively successful but not lasting. I still say that something is going on other than the joints though - the joints ached, like a toothache, but the real pain is a combo of being on fire and punched, repeatedly.

Yes.  There is always an ache, even if there's no intense pain.  My pain, it's like someone stabbed a really long needle through my back.  It never goes down my leg, but my butt is numb.  If my BF touches my gluteus maximus, I can't feel it....  I wonder if that is something I should have mentioned to the doc....

Definitely mention the numbness to the doctor the next time you go. My left foot, outside, was going numb, and they sent me for an EMG.

Goodness gracious. I wonder sometimes if I have something similar. I have a funny spot in my back that might be injured from a wreck I had in 1994. A guy t-boned me at over 50 mph. I didn't go to the doctor. Plus a couple of decades of working in the electrical trade, wearing my back out a few times. My problem is that I have a high tolerance for pain. I've had injuries where I should have gone to the doctor but didn't. Just toughed it out, getting by with Percogesic or Motrin.

Ron, when I have a spasm or whatever it is that happens, pinch, twist, something, it literally sends me to the floor.

We were in the FL Keys and I got up from my chair, turned to the fridge and crashed as the pain shot through my back.  And all this with an hour boat ride to the Dry Tortugas after driving 45 minutes to Key West on the agenda.  I laid on my back in the bench seat in the cabin of the boat (what kind of boat has the two pontoons on the bottom?) the whole way there.  I was able to walk slowly by the time we got there.  Snorkeling was ok too.

The most recent one, I was practicing Go On's with my dog in the living room using a jump.  I stepped forward, swept my arm forward and down I went.    Crawled to the couch for a little while and laid there.

Another time, we'd been drinking in Portland, OR at a beer fest and I was pretty drunk.  I was skipping back to the hotel.  Once in the room though, I took off a shoe and down I went.  BF had to help me get to the toilet so I could pee.  [8|][>:]  Not fun.  Especially with the plane ride home the next day.

I have nothing worthwhile to offer, other than to say I feel terrible for you guys and I hope your docs can reach a manageable solution.  I pinched a nerve in my back several years ago, and at the time I thought my world was collapsing b/c it meant I was at best a two-event gymnast (no more tumbling, no more vault).  Coming to terms with that and sticking to bars and beam was a lifesaver though, b/c I was really careful about the injury and even though it hurt just to sit still and breathe for a year, after a year and a half it healed itself completely and I have very little back pain even though I do some heavy lifting and work in front of a computer all day.  Having to inject painkillers and constantly take Vicodin before 30 years old...gosh, I don't even want to think about it! []

Ron, being stubborn seems to only buy you trouble in the long run, or so hubby says... [8|]
 
Leslie, that's how mine is, too - will bring you to your knees. Happened to me Saturday when I was cutting my FIL's hair - I rotated my torso to see the side of his head, and it took my breath away. I laid down on the kitchen floor for 15 minutes, took a pill, and was fine, but boy.
 
Liesje, I'm really glad that your pinched nerve healed, although that really stinks about the gymnastics. That's my fear - that they'll tell me that I can't, or I won't be able to ride the horses like I used to be able to. [:'(]