Dog Community

Fence Fighting

Posted : 7/3/2006 9:45:26 AM

This may belong in Behavior or Training, but it seems like more people read this forum, and I really need some advice. I posted a reply in a barking thread last week about how Loki barks at dogs that walk past our house. (We have a 6 foot cedar fence--can't see in or out). Lately it has turned from barking at the dogs to something more violent looking. He follows the dog down the fence snapping and attacking the fence. Someone replied to my post and said that this is fence fighting.

Our neighbors sometimes leave their dog chained next door (they don't have a fence on the other side of their yard). Most of the time, Loki and the other dog can be outside together, but every now and then one of them will start barking at the other. Whenever this happens, Loki will start viciously attacking the fence trying to get to her.

We have been working on "quiet" in the yard. We have a citronella collar and use praise and treats when he is quiet with another dog walking by. But the problem just seems to be getting worse. I think we have been doing something wrong to elevate his barking to aggression. A neighbor commented the other day that my dogs sound really scary and I don't want people to think that. They're such good boys! How do I deal with this? What is the proper way to get them to stop barking and now that it has elevated to "fence fighting" how do I stop that?

Brian Berry

Posted : 7/3/2006 10:30:27 AM

To me, it sounds like he is being very, very territorial. Even if he can't see the other dog, he can hear and smell it. Has he been socialized with other dogs much?

mudpuppy

Posted : 7/3/2006 10:32:21 AM

This is a tough behavior to tackle, because fence fighting/barking at passerbys is fun for dogs and is intrinsically rewarding-- bark and carry on, and no chance of danger, and the intruding dog always leaves! wow. When I was a kid our dog and the neighbor's dog had a blast racing up and down their respective sides of the fence pretending to be trying to kill each other. If they met in person, with no barrier between them, they played happily together. So the "aggression" isn't very likely to be real, and no, you're probably not doing anything wrong.
The anti-bark collars are usually very effective in controlling vocalization. You may need to add in a mild correction to your training regimen-- your rewards for not-fence-fighting may be nowhere near as rewarding to the dog as fence-fighting is. Also a tired dog is a good dog. More exercise and training never hurts.

Terri

Posted : 7/3/2006 11:10:36 AM

Yes, he's been very well socialized since he was a puppy. We have been through a couple of training classes (he's going through Advanced class at Petsmart right now), he has play dates and goes to dog park. He loves other dogs, which I thought may be part of the problem. Not only is he being territorial, but he's frustrated because he wants to meet and play with the other dogs.

I take both dogs on a 3-4 mile walk every day and it doesn't seem to matter too much if he's tired or not. If a dog walks by, he'll find the energy to get up and bark.

Mudpuppy, what kind of correction would you recommend? I've been hestitant to really "punish" him for his behavior, because I don't want him to think "dog walks by, I get in trouble, so I should try to get rid of the dog". I feel like he may be thinking that already. I'm just so frustrated! I don't want to have the "mean dogs" of the neighborhood.

spiritdogs

Posted : 7/3/2006 12:24:47 PM

This is a behavior that gets worse if the dog gets to "practice" it, and your fear about making him think the other dog is causing the correction has some validity. Is there any other portion of your yard that you can fence off, or make a double barrier, so that he isn't seeing or smelling other dogs that are going by?

Terri

Posted : 7/3/2006 1:50:35 PM

Our yard is not too big--maybe 12 feet deep and 30 feet wide right behind our house with small section on each side. The way our lot is configured, we have a neighbor who shares a fence on one side and the other two sides are facing the street. We're right on a corner, so dogs are walking by all the time. I don't think there would be anyway to block off our yard so he couldn't see/smell the dogs.

Whenever he starts barking (Odin will bark too if he's outside, but he's just going along with whatever Loki starts), I go outside, tell him "quiet" and praise/treat him if he does it. Usually he will sit and be quiet for a second and then go right back to barking. He runs along the fence chasing the dog walking by, and I can't stop him once he's started that. I just don't know how to stop this without making him more aggressive at the other dogs.

mudpuppy

Posted : 7/3/2006 2:17:19 PM

is his bark collar doing anything? I'm suspicious of those smell-spray collars. I have a friend who got one, had the dog bark right through the sprays. Switched to a static shock anti-bark collar, and bingo, no barking. And much of the dog's frantic out-of-control behavior, always accompanied by barking of course, sort of faded away over the next few days. I would think an effective anti-bark collar would stop the behavior, or at least make it less offensive. To stop fence-biting you can run a hot wire (electric fence, delivers a mild shock when touched) down the fence.

I'm not sure how best to approach the problem. Certainly you cannot obviously be involved in the reward/punishment, or he'll only not-fence-fight when you aren't there. What if you enlist a friend to bring her calm friendly dog over, and she just stands there outside the fence, and as soon as your dog is quiet and still she tosses a treat over the fence and then leaves? and repeat.

Terri

Posted : 7/3/2006 3:02:44 PM

If he's just idly barking at some passing distraction, the bark collar is pretty effective. It breaks his attention and gives me time to say "good quiet" like the manual says to. If there is a dog walking right next to the fence, though, he'll bark right through getting sprayed. I know those shock collars don't hurt the dog, I just don't like the idea of shocking him, so I'm a little hesitant to try that.

I can try to have a friend walk their dog by, but I just don't know if he would ever settle down. Or if he would eventually destroy the fence trying to get through.

I just talked to my dad (who has had dogs his whole life, but has no experience with the positive reward training or any modern dog behavior techniques) and his suggestion is to get a hose and every time Loki barks, spray him. He says that will break his concentration and stop him from barking. I told him I'd try it, but it seems to me that if he is getting more aggressive because of my reprimanding him, that may make it worse. I'm at a loss!

gradyupmybutt

Posted : 7/3/2006 3:16:51 PM

What if you enlist a friend to bring her calm friendly dog over, and she just stands there outside the fence, and as soon as your dog is quiet and still she tosses a treat over the fence and then leaves? and repeat.

I'm wondering if the fact that Loki can not see the other dog yet can smell & hear it has anything to do with his behavior? I'm mostly thinking out loud here but I think that maybe Mudpuppy's idea of desensitization may be a good one since you can't really change your fencing around.

Terri

Posted : 7/3/2006 3:38:38 PM

We have a storm door on the front of our house and he'll watch dogs walk by without barking (for the most part anyway, if he does bark it's not so vicious), so you could be right about him smelling but not seeing the dog. I just wonder how to desensitize him without him going through the fence. And all of my posts here are just thinking out loud. I really appreciate everyone's advice here. This is such a great place to come and work through "doggy issues". [

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spiritdogs

Posted : 7/3/2006 3:53:39 PM

I go outside, tell him "quiet" and praise/treat him if he does it. Usually he will sit and be quiet for a second and then go right back to barking

That's pretty normal. Extending the time he is quiet is a challenge, but I think it's do-able. Have you tried clicker training?

miranadobe

Posted : 7/3/2006 4:12:11 PM

I'm suspicious of those smell-spray collars.

Agreed - they're allegedly more humane, but that citronella lingers on their face for much longer than a momentary static shock. SO the dog barks, it gets sprayed, the spray hangs on their face and in the air long after the dog stops barking.... how is he supposed to associate so long afterward that the spray had to do with the bark?

Terri

Posted : 7/3/2006 5:14:34 PM

That's a good point about the citronella collars. I kinda like how it smells, so I've gotten so I don't mind it--maybe he has too.

We've worked on clicker training in some of his classes. How would we be able to apply it to this?

tiffy

Posted : 7/3/2006 6:07:05 PM

The hose works!!! My 3 dogs would some how know the mailman was comiing, so they would run outside and start to bark like it was the end of the world and they were respnsible for saving it. Very embarrasing. As soon as they were through the dog door, I would go out front and stand against the side of the house with the hose ( they couldn't see me), they would get to the fence, start the barking and I wouild spray them with the hose. It only took two days of this. Now its one or two barks inside and I can tell that they want to go outside, but just turn around and go lay back down. I was so impressed. I remember Glenda saying something about not doing the water in a spray bottle to a puppy, but I have 3 grown dogs, so I stepped up to the hose. My neighbors are really amazed at the no bark.

Terri

Posted : 7/3/2006 8:41:07 PM

Well I went and bought a new hose today and I'm ready to try it. The only problem is, when they start to bark, I have to walk out the back door and grab the hose. So they will know it's me. I hope it works. Any other suggestions??