Freaking out - Finn (UPDATE)

    • Gold Top Dog

    I agree Tina.  Yes those meds are not without their own side effects and risks but being married to someone with epilepsy I know how traumatizing those seizures are and we're talking about a grown man who is able to communicate when things are not right and how it makes him feel.  The seizures are so terrifying for him (and are basically like a full body "reboot", he is exhausted and will sleep for a full day after) his choice is to take the meds and accept any other consequences rather than suffer another seizure.  Not trying to anthropomorphizing just saying that we have to also consider the perspective of the animal or person suffering.  Some times the side effects ARE worth it (I am the same way w/ my migraine meds, quite frankly I don't care what it is or why/how it works, it works and I have my life back are all that matter to me).

    Anyway, I hope the vet can provide some insight and that it's nothing serious!

    • Gold Top Dog

    sharismom

    calliecritturs
    Seriously -- you don't want the vet to diagnoses "seizures" and rush to put him on any sort of seizure meds -- the sides effects of those are serious, and immediately habit-forming.  There are other things you can do.

    If the dog is, in fact, having seizures, you need to know.  That doesn't mean you have to put him on any meds right away.  Any vet worth his/her DVM degree will tell you to keep a log of when it happens and what happens exactly before the dog is put on anything.  You can certainly get a second and third medical opinion before you make any decisions.  I think it is a good thing you caught Finn on video - that will help.

    Agree.  I had a seizure dog who started off on pheno and then was transitioned successfully to potassium bromide.  I wouldn't hesitate to start a dog on seizure meds IF that is the diagnosis.  My vet had me keep a log and it was actually several months before we determined that she was having seizures since they were petit mal and the symptoms were quite subtle. 

    • Gold Top Dog

     It looked very much like a small seizure to me as some others have said. Thinking about you and wishing for the best.

    • Gold Top Dog

    My thoughts and prayers are with you as you find out what the vet has to say.  I hope it is a good resolution. K

    • Gold Top Dog

    sharismom
    Any vet worth his/her DVM degree will tell you to keep a log of when it happens and what happens exactly before the dog is put on anything. 

    Tina - I wish that were the case, but I've seen SO many vets just plop them on meds particularly if they *think* the owner is extremely worried.  And your point about the 2d and 3rd opinion is EXTREMELY good.

    Given that he doesn't go to the vets "easily" I'm just urging caution that you not let the vet not rush to put him on the big drugs as an easier answer than multiple vet visits.  You *do* need to know - it definitely needs to be diagnosed, just urging caution here.  Once begun those drugs can't be stopped easily and even a transition to another drug takes time.

    sharismom
      I think it is a good thing you caught Finn on video - that will help.

    I have danged near turned myself inside out trying to get a video of what Tink's doing and I can't catch it.  The fact that you got a video of it is HUGELY helpful.

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs
    I wish that were the case, but I've seen SO many vets just plop them on meds particularly if they *think* the owner is extremely worried.

    Callie, I would venture your "evidence" is mostly anecdotal.  Surely you can't be with every seizure dog to know what the vet has or has not done.

    It is like any other issue that can crop up with dogs, or even cats, kids, etc.  The owners need to educate themselves, be proactive, and speak up for those under their care who cannot speak for themselves.  We all don't have a DVM degree, but we can become knowledgeable when dealing with any issue.  That being said, all the working knowledge we have and can share does in no way substitute for qualified medical advice and care.

    Georgie, I apologize for hijacking.  I really hope you can find out what is going on with Finn and then be able to go from there.  (((Hugs)))

    • Gold Top Dog

     The fact you got it on video is impressive and no doubt going to be a huge help at the vets! I really hope you can get this all sorted. It's so painful when something is NOT right with our furry ones. They don't have words after all to help us out.

    • Gold Top Dog

    sharismom

    Callie, I would venture your "evidence" is mostly anecdotal.  Surely you can't be with every seizure dog to know what the vet has or has not done.

    If by anecdotal you mean personal experience -- I emailed you with specifics and I don't want to go into greater detail here.  And obviously I haven't been with "every dog" (altho frankly with the example I emailed you about I was involved with several of the vets in that particular case) nor do I clam that.  And maybe when I say "I've seen it happen" that may be a colloquialism for "I've known it to happen".  Hopefully that's more clear.

    But I saw it myself with Kee Shu who was MY dog, and with another close friend.  And I've talked to others with the same story.  And now once again I'm doing the same careful process with Tinkerbell.  I've also been in numerous seminars up to the University of Florida and have repeatedly heard numerous vets up there speak on seizure activity and again urge that seizure pharmaceutical drugs be considered only as a last resort after other options were considered.

    I'm simply urging caution -- I'm not saying not to take them to a vet for heaven's sake.  I'm saying just don't let the vet make a fast decision to prescribe drugs without going thru the cautionary investigation that both you **and** Jackie are talking about.  And I didn't use the word "evidence" at all -- I'm simply urging caution against snap judgment. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs

    I'm simply urging caution -- I'm not saying not to take them to a vet for heaven's sake.  I'm saying just don't let the vet make a fast decision to prescribe drugs without going thru the cautionary investigation that both you **and** Jackie are talking about.  And I didn't use the word "evidence" at all -- I'm simply urging caution against snap judgment. 

    I am willing to give Georgie credit to not rush to a snap judgement and to ask questions. I think she has shown herself to actually be quite on the ball, this post is evidence of that.

    We all tend to see things from the viewpoint we are most comfortable with...and that's fine. But just as one should not rush to snap judgments, one should not always allow our viewpoints to become tunnel like.

    GeorgeAnne best of luck with Finn.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I'll hand out 2X4s to anyone who would like to continue beating me about the head and shoulders.  I'm done.

    • Gold Top Dog

      My boss's Boxer has "Idiopathic Head Tremor Syndrome" and has occasional episodes of head tremors. That's exactly what Finn's twitching looks like to me. Head tremors are most common in Bulldogs, Boxers and Dobes but can affect other breeds and mixes too (search on Google or Youtube and you will see lots and lots of different breeds with head tremors). Some people seem to feel that it is related to a sudden drop in blood sugar and/or calcium. Others feel it is environmental or stress related. While it does seem seizure-like, anti-seizure drugs haven't proven effective in reducing the number or severity of the tremors.

     Like all things idiopathic, the real cause is unknown. Dogs who have this tend to check out totally normal health wise - xrays, bloodwork, etc. The good news is that who have these head tremors live perfectly normal lives and the tremors don't lead to or predict further neurological problems.

     A blurb in a vet manual: http://books.google.com/books?id=VT_Tnpt2hJAC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=idiopathic+head+tremor+in+dogs&source=bl&ots=OJ0d-pDfkw&sig=VnK5JYYng7p31YNYer0RhXICfSc&hl=en&ei=yczWTYeBLYG_gQeOkKmrBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFQQ6AEwCDgU#v=onepage&q=idiopathic%20head%20tremor%20in%20dogs&f=false

      Here is a page with lots of info from Bulldog people: http://www.bulldogsworld.com/health-and-medical/head-tremors-bulldog-partial-focal-seizures-paroxysmal-dyskinesia

      And from an Ask the Vet...

     http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=59968

     Video of a Dane with head tremors: http://savagedane.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html

     Video of Boxer with head tremors: http://www.hitowerboxers.com/apps/videos/videos/show/7311345-boxer-head-tremors

      This was posted to a Dobe board about it:

    "Anyone experiencing head tremors in Dobermanns and who have not been able to find out anything about it, please rest easy.
    Unfortunatly this condition seems to be on the increase and breeders are less than forthcoming in making it know, apparently Bulldogs are prone to it.
    Below is a copy of an email to from Dr WB Thomas to me permission to reproduce is granted, I hope this give some relief to those who have found themselves with a dog with this condition.

    A syndrome called “idiopathic head tremor”, for lack
    of a better name, has been recognized in dogs.
    Dobermans are most commonly affected, with English
    bulldogs being also common. Other breeds can also be
    affected.

    Signs consist of an intermittent tremor of the head. This
    can be an up-and-down movement or a side-to-side
    movement. The tremor starts and stops spontaneously.
    The dogs are alert and responsive during the tremor
    and are able to walk normally. In some cases,
    distracting the dog, for example with food, can stop the
    tremor.

    Diagnostic testing, including CT/MRI, spinal fluid
    analysis, and EEG are typically normal. Affected dogs
    do not develop other neurologic signs. There is no
    treatment but the episodes sometimes eventually stop.

    This has been discussed among neurologists and
    nobody really agrees on the nature of these episodes.
    They may be focal seizures, but they rarely respond to
    anti-seizure drugs. Another theory is that this is a
    movement disorder. A behavior disorder, such as
    stereotypy has also been postulated. I have seen
    related Dobermans affected, suggesting there may be a
    genetic component.

    WB Thomas DVM,MS
    Dipl.ACVIM(Neurology)
    University of Tennessee
    Knoxville, TN"  http://www.gentledoberman.com/forums/head-tremors

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    MysteryTheMorab

    My thoughts and prayers are with you as you find out what the vet has to say.  I hope it is a good resolution. K

     

      Sending my thoughts and prayers too. I hope it's easily treatable.(((hugs)))

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    calliecritturs

    I'll hand out 2X4s to anyone who would like to continue beating me about the head and shoulders.  I'm done.

     

     (((HUGS)))  I hope you can figure out what's wrong with Tink. Sending healing vibes.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Thanks for everything everyone.  And Agile, that really does look like what happened with Finn.  He wasn't bothered by it, it was just happening.

    DH took Finn to the vet today.  They were able to get blood from him and he actually did fairly well.  He did lose control of his bowels and bladder when they removed him from the room to take blood and then he pooped on the exam table again after he was brought back in.  So he was clearly scared, but he wasn't overly barky. 

    We will hear the results of the bloodwork tomorrow and the fecal came back negative.  The vet appreciated the video and isn't sure what it could be.  She doesn't want to jump to any conclusions, but if his blood comes back clean I am going to mention the head tremors thing and see what she thinks.

    Now I am just left to wait for some results.  Embarrassed 

    • Gold Top Dog

     Callie, I for one would never hit you with a 2x4 or anything else. Your advice and experience on all subjects is invaluable to me.