Pro breed bashers.. wow.

Thanks guys. Jessies mom, I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you. That website link has no basis in reality, and as Miranadobe pointed out has blatantly false information listed.

 

The only dog who has ever tried to bite me was a border collie who lunged for my face. Yes I've had a Rottweiler lunge for my face, but not baring teeth, he only had his tongue out to give kisses, lol, and boy did he nail me! Do I think all border collies are nuts and aggressive now? Nope, I still love them of course. Would I choose to own one? No, but it has NOTHING to do with the one who attempted to take my nose off.

 

Gina, """My patients need me, no matter what breed or species they are, and I will do my best for them. Just like I would if I was helping people. I would even help the dumb, predjudiced ones, because that is what my field is about." and leave it at that."" ROFL!! That's harsh but so true.

 

 

 Any breed will bite.  Bully dogs are usually strong and can look scary,  but watch out for labs.(Of course, there are more labs than pittys, but a lab can bite pretty well also.

We all work with dogs on a daily basis and know that the human has as much to do with biting as the dog.  Training, socializing, understanding your breed of choice are usually the important factor.

 

 http://www.dogsbite.org/bite-statistics.htm

Breeds of Dogs Involved in Fatal Human Attacks in the United States Between 1979 and 1998 A 2000 report issued by the Center for Disease and Control (CDC) reviewed a 20-year period to determine the types of dog breeds most responsible for U.S. dog bite fatalities. During 1997 and 1998, at least 27 people died of dog bite attacks (18 in 1997 and 9 in 1998). At least 25 breeds of dogs were involved in 238 human dog bite related fatalities during the past 20 years. Pit bulls and rottweilers were involved in over half of these fatalities and from 1997 to 1998 were involved in 67%.

Read study highlights »

Which Dogs Bite? A Case-Control Study of Risk Factors (1991) In 1994, researchers released a study of "which dogs bite" based on 1991 Denver County dog bite data. Pit bulls are not included in the study. In 1989, Denver banned pit bulls. Biters are 6.2 times as likely to be male than female Biters are 2.6 times as likely to be intact than neutered Biters are 2.8 times as likely to be chained as unchained

Read study highlights »

1Emergency Department Visits and Inpatient Stays Involving Dog Bites, 2008, by Laurel Holmquist, M.A. and Anne Elixhauser, Ph.D., Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, Rockville, MD., November 2010.

http://www.dog-obedience-training-online.com/dog-bite-statistics-by-breed.html

 

Dog Bite Statistics by Breed YES! I want to claim my free instant access to the Secrets to Dog Training 6 Day Dog Behavior and Training course ($27 value). Your Name: Your email Address: (This is a private and fully protected mailing list. You can unsubscribe at any time). Dog Bite Statistics by Breed A Complete Guide to Dog Bite Statistics by Breed... Dog Breed Attacks that caused bodily harm Child Victims Adult Victims Deaths Maimings Akita  Akita mix (inspecific)  Akita/Chow mix  Akita/Lab mix  Akita/terrier mix  Airedale/boxer   Airedale  Australian blue heeler  Australian cattle dog Australian shepherd  Basset/GSD mix  Beagle Belgian shepherd  Blue heeler  Border collie  Briard  Brittany spaniel   Bulldog (American  Bulldog (English)  Bull mastiff (Presa Canario)  Bull mastiff/German shepherd  Buff mastiff/Rottweiler  Boxer  Boxer mix  Cane Corso  Catahoula  Chow  Chow/husky mix   Chow/Labrador mix  Chox mix (other)  Cocker spaniel  Collie  Collie/retriever mix  Coonhound  Dalmatian  Dalmatian/Akita mix  Dauschund  Doberman  Doge de Bordeaux  East Highland terrier  Fila Brasiero  German shepherd  German shepherd mix  German shepherd/husky mix  Golden retriever Great Dane  Great Pyranees  Greyhound  Husky  Husky/Malamute mix  Husky/Labrador mix  Jack Russell terrier Labrador  Labrador mix  Labrador/boxer mix Lab-Doberman  Lab-St. Bernard  Malamute  Mastiff  Norwegian elkhound Pit bull terrier  Pit bull boxer mix  Pit bull/chow mix  Pit bull/Doberman/GSD/Lab  Pit bull/GSD mix  Pit bull/Lab mix  Pit bull/Rott. mix  Pit bull/Sheltie mix  Pit bull/Weimaraner mix  Pit mix unknown  Pointer mix  Pomeranian  Poodle  Pug  Pug/Rottweiler mix  Queensland heeler  Rottweiler Rottweiler/chow mix  Rottweiler/GSD mix  Rottweiler/Labrador Russian terrier  Saint Bernard  Sharpei  Sharpei/Rottweiler Sharpei/unknown mix  Sharpei/Labrador  Springer spaniel Tosa  Weimaeaner Wheaten terrier Wolf hybrid  Total:  48 1 3 1 2 1 1 3 1 6 1 2 4 2 1 2 4 4 16 30 2 1 31 1 4 3 49 2 4 2 1 3 1 1 3 1 2 11 2 1 1 63 31 4 6 24 1 1 39 2 1 2 26 10 1 1 1 8 16 1 1110 5 5 2 1 15 39 1 1 3 1 1 2 1 2 3 409 1 13 7 1 6 4 2 1 1 3 1 1 2 71 2209 32 1 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 4 1 2 1 0 0 0 1 0 8 10 1 1 6 1 1 0 34 2 4 2 1 3 1 1 3 1 1 7 1 0 1 42 21 3 6 5 0 1 23 2 0 1 18 9 0 1 1 7 11 0 495 1 2 2 1 10 7 1 0 2 0 1 1 1 1 0 231 1 7 6 0 3 4 1 1 1 4 1 1 1 65 1142 14 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 3 1 1 1 0 3 3 13 0 0 12 0 2 1 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 4 0 1 0 17 7 1 0 4 1 0 4 0 1 1 9 1 1 0 0 1 4 1 397 2 3 0 0 4 3 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 109 0 5 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 658 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 1 0 2 1 6 1 0 2 1 1 0 6 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 3 0 1 0 7 6 1 1 2 1 0 13 0 0 1 2 0 0 0 0 3 4 0 104 0 1 0 0 3 2 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 58 0 2 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 18 264 39 1 3 1 1 0 0 2 1 1 0 1 1 1 1 0 1 2 9 16 0 1 12 0 3 1 32 1 3 2 1 3 1 0 3 1 2 7 1 0 1 38 19 2 4 9 0 1 8 2 1 0 20 9 0 1 1 3 9 1 608 2 3 2 1 8 8 1 1 2 0 0 2 1 0 1 223 1 10 7 1 1 4 1 1 1 4 1 1 1 43 1323 These dog bite statistics by breed are based specifically on family dogs. Lets also remember who remains in control here, or should we say who isn't in contol - the owners! Dogs are not born bad they are made that way - it's nurture vs nature! We hope you found our dog bite statistics by breed useful. This information is as accurate as possible. For the original findings please visit the source below. We are not advocating that any dog breed is more dangerous or safer than another. Source: Dog attack deaths and maimings, US and Canada, September 1982 to November 13, 2006. Merritt Clifton. Go from dog bite statistics by breed back to best dog breeds or back to dog obedience training home-page Share this page:  What's This? Enjoy this page? Please pay it forward. Here's how... Copyright www.dog-obedience-training-online.com 2008-2011. All information contained on this site is for information only. Any information is not intended to replace the advice of a Vet. Always speak to a Vet if you have any concerns about your dog's health. All rights reserved.

These statistics don't mean much other than to provide numbers that are reported by people with most likely little knowledge of dog breeds.  Your main point Doug is well taken but I remain a skeptic when these type of lists are published. 

 Let's face it many shelter and animal control workers can't identify most breeds or mixes with any accuracy much less law enforcement and medical persons.   I don't pretend to be an expert either but I do know that much misidentification goes on.  It's really not the point because as I and others have said previously, any dog can and will bite.  The circumstances play an enormous but mostly overlooked role and people don't usually take this into account when they're trying to promote breed bans or just bash breeds in general due to ignorance.  

I'm honestly pretty surprised with the response from your class. The classes I took I found the people to be VERY breed unbiased, and open to all sorts of things. But... the end of day reality is - those that are afraid of those dogs WILL NOT MAKE IT in this field. You're not going to find a single clinic that does not see at least ONE of each of those breeds. No Dr. is going to be with 'I don't like that breed, so I'm not going in that room'. Forget about it. If someone said that in my clinic, I'd be happy to show them where the door is.

That said - you ARE going to see dogs of those breeds, and many, many others, that are NOT going to be friendly. I've been tossed around like a ragdoll by large, powerful breeds more times than I can count. I've got bruises from hitting the table that looks like I could be in an abusive relationship (not all of these out of aggression... some are just WAY TOOO happy to be at the vets!)

I know most of my clients, but whenever I get a new one, or one I haven't seen in a while - I ALWAYS ASK 'now, how is Fluffy for this type of thing?' (ie - blood, nails, etc)

My tech classes included several on breed id/behavior which were very good - basic - and positive. I hope you get those too!

Statistics can say ANYTHING you want them to say.

My point from above is -- it's not necessarily the BREED itself that is the real bite risk but rather the people who own them and what they teach them (or abuse them) to do.  NO statistic will take that into consideration.  It's very nearly to the point of which came first, A genetic tendency to 'bite' or cruel/ignorant owners who encouraged agression/biting either to enhance self-image or through sheer ignorance. Or is it 99% environmental?  There's no way to know nor to separate it from the statistics.

Callie I think you hit the nail on the head. Nobody is going to get a golden or something, chain it up, and teach it to be tough, purposely not giving it the time to socialize with people as they may choose to do with some of the ""dangerous" breeds. Statistics don't reflect how "Killer" or "Satan" was treated before they bit.

Beejou

... Nobody is going to get a golden or something, chain it up, and teach it to be tough, purposely not giving it the time to socialize with people as they may choose to do with some of the ""dangerous" breeds. Statistics don't reflect how "Killer" or "Satan" was treated before they bit.

I have pretty good first hand knowledge of two large rescues, one of golden retrievers and one of collies, that pretty well fits most of your description. In each case over a hundred fifty dogs were involved. They weren't taught to be tough, but chained up and completely unsocialized describes their condition perfectly. And none of these dogs were biters. Some were shy, fearful and neurotic but they were handled by a lot of volunteers who were not at all dog savvy, and there weren't any problems with aggression and only a couple fear bites that occurred in the initial rescue. The 180 collies (all intact and about equally numbers of males and females) were kept in rescue for over 6 months until the owners were finally convicted, and during that time they were cared for largely by volunteers, many of whom had no particular experience dealing with any dogs other than their own family pet. In that whole time there were two minor bites, both the night the dogs were taken out of the crates they had been confined to for the previous 10 days. During the first week of the rescue the dogs were confined for a week, as many as a dozen to a stall, in a horse barn until more suitable kennel space could be arranged. What do you think would have been the outcome if 180 completely unsocialized intact pit bulls had been kept under similar circumstances? I happen to like pits, but it's not akin to racism to recognize that different breeds have been deliberately selected for different behavioral characteristics, and selective breeding actually does work.

buster the show dog

I happen to like pits, but it's not akin to racism to recognize that different breeds have been deliberately selected for different behavioral characteristics, and selective breeding actually does work.

 

What behavior characteristic is selected and bred for in pits that would make them more likely to bite a human? 

  Pits can be dangerous dogs but I don't believe they are more inclined than any other breed to aggress toward a human if they are well socialized and owned by a responsible person who understands the breed.  They are usually very high prey drive and tenacious, like most terriers and this is what makes them easy to train for dog fighting.  They have been selectively bred to be very human oriented and friendly to humans.  Otherwise, the idiot dog fighters wouldn't be safe handling them. 

 My JRT could do a lot of damage to a child if I had raised him improperly.  He has many of the characteristics of a pit and enormous jaw strength and is as tenacious as they come.  He had to be trained and socialized extensively to make him a good canine citizen.  Nevertheless, I never  assume any dog, even the most well socialized, will not bite or aggress under the right circumstances.  It's all about the human factor as has been said by so many of us in this thread.

Considering the fact that there are over 70 million dogs in the United States, the number of serious dog bites is extremely low.  The media has created the myth of the dangerous pit bull and politicians get in on the witch hunt because their uninformed constituents believe what the media tells them. 

  

calliecritturs

Statistics can say ANYTHING you want them to say.

My point from above is -- it's not necessarily the BREED itself that is the real bite risk but rather the people who own them and what they teach them (or abuse them) to do.  NO statistic will take that into consideration.  It's very nearly to the point of which came first, A genetic tendency to 'bite' or cruel/ignorant owners who encouraged agression/biting either to enhance self-image or through sheer ignorance. Or is it 99% environmental?  There's no way to know nor to separate it from the statistics.

 

A well bred, sound dog is not likely to bite, even if kept chained and "neglected" (I put that in quotes because much of what I see/hear called "neglect" still falls within one's legal rights as far as dog ownership, whether I like it or not).  A dog's temperament has boundaries that are determined by genetics.  How the dog is treated and socialized will certainly push them one way or the other, but only within that genetically determined spectrum.  My "neglected", chained out dog is my happiest, most social, never going to bite anyone dog.   My spoiled rotten her entire life, had every opportunity for socialization and training dog is the weakest nerved dog, most likely to snap someone.  Why?  Genetics.

I don't argue for a minute that genetics don't play a role. This is where I believe just a poorly bred dog comes into play, but nurture is definitely a factor, hands down. I would bet anything that if T-Bone had not been thoroughly socialized he'd be one heck of a "bad" dog. He's naturally protective, which is great. He knows how to ID a threat vs. just a bonehead or a loud kid. If I had left him chained up though, what would that have turned into? He would never have learned that some uncomfortable and weird stuff goes on and we don't go off over it. Now add an owner who reinforces it by laughing or riling the dog up, and you have the same problem ten fold. Point is if T-Bone ended up on a chain for the first two years of life, he'd not be the dog he is today. Nature and nurture both have a role..

 

Buster The Show Dog... how do you explain this, then? We have an adult pit bull at the place I work who is a regular and plays great with all other dogs. She tries her best to play with an adult female black lab, who snarls and would like to take her apart. She is highly dog aggressice.  We have several pit bulls and pit mixes who are just huge loves - because someone spent time loving them and training them. I would use more caution with buly breeds than other around other dogs but some are, believe it or not, just fine. I don't think we have champion bred Pits here.. these are run of the mill shelter pits who were lucky to get out as pups.

We're seeing a LOT more temperamentally aggressive Golden Retrievers these days, too.  There's a name that comes up about them: "Golden Deceivers" - because they LOOK like Goldens, but their temperaments are nasty - human and dog aggressive animals.  Plenty of great Goldens with years and years of great temperaments, being undone with these nasty beasts. 

Simple knowledge and understanding of what's happening w/in a specific breed.  Doesn't mean I'm actively campaigning to put Goldens into an "extinct" column.  Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but it sounds like the people in the topic of the original post are.  As animal professionals, that's disturbing, considering their biases don't seem all that well informed!  They might as well be PETA supporters.

Beejou

Buster The Show Dog... how do you explain this, then? We have an adult pit bull at the place I work who is a regular and plays great with all other dogs. She tries her best to play with an adult female black lab, who snarls and would like to take her apart. She is highly dog aggressice.  We have several pit bulls and pit mixes who are just huge loves - because someone spent time loving them and training them. I would use more caution with buly breeds than other around other dogs but some are, believe it or not, just fine. I don't think we have champion bred Pits here.. these are run of the mill shelter pits who were lucky to get out as pups.

Well sure, of course you can find pits who are marshmallows around other dogs, and you can find labs or goldens or collies or clumber spaniels who have nasty temperaments. There are probably siberians that don't care to pull and I know for a fact that there are lazy border collies that are totally indifferent to controlling livestock. But my point was that you can't blame all cases of dog aggression on the dog having been chained up and poorly socialized. Lots and lots of dogs are chained up and poorly socialized and terribly mistreated without becoming aggressive. No one claims that when a border collie rounds up the sheep, or a lab fetches the duck, or a newfie jumps in the lake that it's all in how the dog was trained and breed has nothing to do with the behavior. But somehow when one or two breeds that have been highly selected for aggressive behavior end up at the top of the fatal attack list, we are supposed to believe that breed is totally irrelevant. Breed isn't irrelevant. That doesn't mean every individual within the breed is going to act the same way. But selection isn't just responsible for desirable behaviors. It's behind undesirable behaviors as well.

Jackie G

What behavior characteristic is selected and bred for in pits that would make them more likely to bite a human? .

Well, that's complicated. Pits were selected to be aggressive toward other dogs, and to never give up once a fight was initiated. No, I do not equate dog aggression with human aggression. I know plenty of dogs who are aggressive toward other dogs but not toward humans. But I don't think that portion of the pit bull's history is irrelevant to why they end up at the top of the fatal dog attack statistics either. I think the problem with pits is that their dog fighting heritage encouraged a lot of unscrupulous people to breed them for human aggression as well. After all, if your goal is to breed dogs to guard your drug operation, it makes more sense to start with a powerful fearless dog that loves a good fight, and then select the ones within that population that are the easiest to induce to turn that aggression toward humans. Sure they also mistreated and abused the dogs, but the members of the litter that were the easiest to make into "man biters" were the ones these thugs continued to breed. No doubt these "breeders" weren't averse to adding in a few genes from more human aggressive breeds as well. And we aren't talking about a bunch of people here who were carefully screening the "adopters" of the puppies they produced and diligently enforcing spay/neuter contracts. So, you have a bunch of thugs selecting for "new and improved" pit bulls that could be more easily turned into "man biters" and allowing and encouraging those genes to become widely disseminated in the gene pool. Of course not every pit is human aggressive. Probably most of them aren't. But the pit population is a mish mash now dogs of dubious background. It's ridiculous to assume that every pit is a potential human killer. But it's also ridiculous to pretend that breed has nothing to do with aggression, or that aggression is exclusively due to poor socialization. Do you think that if 180 unsocialized intact pit bulls or rotties were pulled out of the back of the semi truck that they had spent the last 10 days in, that they could have all been safely handled by a bunch of untrained volunteers for the next six months with only a single minor bite incident?

.

buster the show dog

Do you think that if 180 unsocialized intact pit bulls or rotties were pulled out of the back of the semi truck that they had spent the last 10 days in, that they could have all been safely handled by a bunch of untrained volunteers for the next six months with only a single minor bite incident?

 

I don't have any reason to believe they wouldn't be able to be safely handled.  Even if people were bitten in the process, that wouldn't be a sign of pits being more dangerous to humans that any other breed or mix.  Again this is a perfect example of breed stereotyping.  As for your speculation that they are bred for human aggression, I just don't believe that happens in any great numbers.  If you have any evidence to the contrary I'm willing to admit you're right about that one fact.  That still doesn't make me believe that the average pit is more likely to bite a human than any of the other street dogs that roam my city by the thousands and thousands.  You cite your experience with the rescued Goldens but I can also give examples of my experience with pits who didn't bite under the most stressful of situations. I can also tell you the story about being lunged at an AKC event by a very scary Golden.  It's meaningless because the numbers are too small to be an accurate representation of anything.  If indeed pitties were so incredibly vicious and deserving of being painted as a dangerous breed, my city would have astronomical incidents of pitties biting humans.  It does happen but if you look at the staggering number of pits around here you might have a better idea why I don't believe the statistics reflect much more than people's desire to always find something other than themselves to blame when a dog bite happens.

Most dog bites are preventable by the humans involved.  I don't care if it's a pit bull or a papillion, bites don't happen out of the blue for no reason other than the dog is a bad dog.  There are a small percentage of dogs who do have something wrong that causes them to aggress for no reason but those are the exception. 

It's kind of funny that you bring up thugs and drug dealers using pits because I happen to be following just such a situation.  A friend of mine has a weekend house out of town.  The lot next to them has an abandoned, falling down trailer on it.  A few months ago he heard a dog barking inside the trailer.  In the past, he was aware that there was a person living there who was obviously dealing drugs.  That person was arrested and is now in jail. So he goes over to investigate the barking dog.  He looks inside a broken window to see a pit bull chained up.  The dog is wagging it's tail furiously.  He sees no sign of food or water so he calls the sheriff's office.  They contact the AC who come out and they see that there is water and food for the dog (my friend just missed it when he looked in the window).  It's assumed that there is drug activity taking place (maybe this is being used to store drugs) but without any evidence of that nothing can be done.  The guard dog is an epic fail for whoever is leaving him there as my friend and AC discovered.  It's so sad that this dog is being left there for whatever reason but he certainly isn't vicious despite being chained all the time.  A good example that druggies and thugs aren't the most dogwise people on the planet. lol   Does this incident prove anything?  No, it doesn't, which is my point.

  I and others could find tons of examples of pitties being the best, most wonderful human companions ever but it wouldn't change the public's opinion.   Personally, after handling and being involved in dogs for most of my adult life, I respect all dogs as being capable of biting and I don't fear any one breed over another. I use my experience and knowledge of dog body language and proceed accordingly when handling a dog I don't know.  Even if the owner swears "he doesn't bite".

 

What Jackie said.

buster the show dog

But the pit population is a mish mash now dogs of dubious background

 

That is true of every representative of the AKC Top Ten. I have more experience with nasty Labs Goldens and BEAGLES than I do nasty Pits. What is your point?

There is breeding FOR human aggression or DRIVE to be WILLING to bite (seen plenty in Malinois and GSD's) and there is LACK of breeding to PRESERVE proper temperament. To me Labs and their ilk are in that group. People are just so USED to them "being nice" that they excuse behavior they should not and breed it because everyone and their brother wants one. Shy, skeevy, fearful, noise phobic, dog aggro examples of Labs and their ilk are bred and sold daily.

The fact that is not EASY to breed a line of human aggressive pits (and it is NOT because MOST pits are made aggro by MISTREATMENT which does not carry over in a line) because of the long history of the game dog being bred to NEVER aggress towards a human...ONLY a prey animal or another dog. These dogs were removed from the fighting pits by people who would immediately snuff any dog that failed to turn off as soon as human appeared. You cannot undo that over any less of a time period than it took to put it there. I think they have a long way to go. By the sheer virtue of numbers the stats get skewed. Not by people "breeding for meanness".

You'd get THERE, much more quickly with another breed like Akitas, Fila's, Cane Corse, or Caucasian Mountain Dogs...that ALREADY have an inherent and firm belief that strangers are no good, and best watched closely and even bitten a little if they insist on pushing the limits of the dog. This shows how little brain power the thug lifers HAVE. As a breeder I know how it works, they do not. They'd already be there if they'd used a breed above...they may never get there across the board, with the Pit. Because there are centuries of breeding AGAINST that...to undo first. But thanks to THE MEDIA...people are probably MORE scared of Pits than they are the others. Bummer for the Pit.