"Pedigree dogs exposed"

    • Gold Top Dog

    "Pedigree dogs exposed"

    Was scrolling through the channels and happend to see this... thought it was interesting enough to post here

    Its on right now on the BBCamerica channel. Channel 135 on dish network.

    It'll be on again in an hour if anyone interested.

    I missed half the show but right now they're talking to a show judge about differences of working dogs vs show dogs and which one is "correct".
    The show judge guy is saying that he believes that show dogs are the correct version of the breed and are better structured than working dogs....
    Then they were showing differences in gaits, and talking about health issues from inbreeding, etc

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    I watched it. oy vei!

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    • Gold Top Dog

     Of course, we know that show dogs meet the criteria set by show judges.  Otherwise, they are not show dogs.  I'll take my field bred ESS any day.  The bench bred are pretty, but I like a dog that can go all day in the brush.  And the field bred are pretty darn good looking .

    • Gold Top Dog

    DougB
    The bench bred are pretty, but I like a dog that can go all day in the brush.  And the field bred are pretty darn good looking .

     

    Yes

    • Gold Top Dog

    DougB

     Of course, we know that show dogs meet the criteria set by show judges.  Otherwise, they are not show dogs.  I'll take my field bred ESS any day.  The bench bred are pretty, but I like a dog that can go all day in the brush.  And the field bred are pretty darn good looking .

     

    I agree, although I dont even think show dogs are "pretty". I really cant stand to see the change in so many breeds from what the breed used to be and what dog show breeders have done to them, just for the sakes of looks. German Shepherds being a good example. Working german shepherds, like the ones used for police work, and AKC german shepherds dont even look like the same breed. There is a lady on my street i know(she used to be my bus driver) and i talked to her every day and so when she got a GSD puppy i went over to see her. They did NOTHING with the puppy, no training or socializing, and now the dog has horrible behavior problems. This lady decided to breed her, because "shes a purebred shepherd and a beautiful dog" (

     The whole show is on youtube, incase anyone is interested. I just watched it for the 2nd time.
    Beware, there are some kind of graphic parts. The scene where they show the boxer having seziers is pretty sad..

    part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbvv0vBf7t8

    part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dc5xAlsRpw

    part 3   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnN4u7OrYdI

    part 4  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSR7o5pB_6Q

    part 5  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQSR-1yAMXo

    part 6  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTjQuQo8Xds

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     This program is an extremely biased view on purebred dogs and breeders. It seems the intention of it is to convince viewers that all purebreds are unhealthy freaks and all breeders are bad. There is no balance at all - no portrayal of the breeders who work really hard at improving the health of their breed, health reserach or who aim to produce dogs who "do it all". 

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD

     This program is an extremely biased view on purebred dogs and breeders. It seems the intention of it is to convince viewers that all purebreds are unhealthy freaks and all breeders are bad. There is no balance at all - no portrayal of the breeders who work really hard at improving the health of their breed, health reserach or who aim to produce dogs who "do it all". 

    I couldn't agree more.

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD

     This program is an extremely biased view on purebred dogs and breeders. It seems the intention of it is to convince viewers that all purebreds are unhealthy freaks and all breeders are bad. There is no balance at all - no portrayal of the breeders who work really hard at improving the health of their breed, health reserach or who aim to produce dogs who "do it all". 

     

    Exactly.  I saw that when it first came out on Youtube and the way it portrayed purebred dogs just pissed me off.  Yes, there are too many breeders who are creeps and the confo world definitely is not perfect, but notice they didn't spend much time showcasing good breeders--I guess that wouldn't have as much shock value.  I would also like to mention THAT every domesticated animal has been selectively bred--the meat and dairy that you eat comes from animals that have been selectively bred to produce.  Horses are selceticly bred--it's not like it is something only thought up by dog breeders.

     The producers of the show took a concept that could have been very helpful to the general public as well as the dog world as a whole and sensationalized it into another tool the the ARists (wow, I'm starting to sound like you Agile--lol).  Go BBC. Confused

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    • Gold Top Dog

     I want to clarify something.  I hunt birds, so the purebreds I've had come from field bred stock.  As long as the breeders are including things like health, intelligence, prey drive, stamina in their requirements, I have no problem.  When appearance is the only requirement, you get some problems that you can get away with until the dogs performance is stressed. Hips and eyes come to mind.  A dog should be able to function at something besides room ornament. 

    A friend into conformation work pointed out to me that field and bench Springers have the same breed standards.  True, but hunters can see the difference.  A field springer will probably not do well in a conformation contest.  And while a bench bred will hunt, the field dog will show some real performance differences.  I believe there is cross breeding to keep the fieldies pretty, but the coats are is different,  the ears are different, and the bodies are showing differences.  It's like the difference between a quarter horse and a thoroughbred.  Both are horses, both can race, both are fast, but not the same.

    I visit some of the hunting web sites and am amazed at what some of these BYB's know about genetics and breeding for field use.  Most seem to really want to get superior dogs, some to sell but frequently for their own use.

    I am sure the sensational parts will come up on another forum that finds pets and I will probably get ripped some more for disagreeing.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD

    This program is an extremely biased view on purebred dogs and breeders. It seems the intention of it is to convince viewers that all purebreds are unhealthy freaks and all breeders are bad. There is no balance at all - no portrayal of the breeders who work really hard at improving the health of their breed, health reserach or who aim to produce dogs who "do it all". 

     

    And no portrayal of breeders who breed dogs that work.  As in, form follows function.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I didn't watch the clips provided.  Is this the same program that we discussed last year?  I remember talk of a sequel and was wondering if this is that sequel.  I do think it's unfortunate that any valuable information gets tossed out because of a one sided presentation by the producers.  There's no doubt that some breeds are being bred into genetic messes but that doesn't mean all breeders are irresponsible. It certainly isn't a good argument for doing away with pure bred dogs.  It never hurts to present both sides of any issue but some people are always afraid to provide balance for fear they will seem uncertain in their beliefs.

    Liesje
    And no portrayal of breeders who breed dogs that work.  As in, form follows function

     

    Some breeds have no work other than as companion dogs.  There is no denying that there can be a huge divide between working lines and show lines in many working breeds.  It also doesn't mean that working lines are free of genetic problems.  As long as humans breed animals we will have genetic problems that arise.  It doesn't always mean a breeder is irresponsible but to deny that some breeders perpetuate known genetic issues for their financial gain is sticking your (general, not directed at any one) head in the sand. 

    It all boils down to intelligent people doing their research before buying a pure bred dog and even that won't ever guarantee that you won't get a dog with a genetic problem.  It means you will try and stack the deck in your pup's favor.  A myth I hear expressed fairly often is that mixed breeds have no genetic problems.  That too is far from the truth but it's commonly believed. 

    • Bronze

    I hunt birds, so the purebreds I've had come from field bred stock.

    I too used to have hunting dogs and now dogs from herding and protection lines.  The comparision of these dogs to show dogs is incredible.  PDE rightly focused on show breeders along with judges and how they have destroyed many breeds for the sake of fashion.

    The simple fact is that no amount of health checks can undo or prevent a problem that is built in to the fashion of the breed.  The Rhodesian is an excellent example of that, but the same is the case with brachycephalic breeds and others that have been radically changed.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Corinthian

    I hunt birds, so the purebreds I've had come from field bred stock.

    I too used to have hunting dogs and now dogs from herding and protection lines.  The comparision of these dogs to show dogs is incredible.  PDE rightly focused on show breeders along with judges and how they have destroyed many breeds for the sake of fashion.

      I am certainly more a fan of working type dogs in many breeds with splits but that "documentary" had an obvious agenda and did not rightly portray any situation with breeding or purebred dogs. And it really was aimed at making it seem as though this was the case with all purebreds and all breeders. If they wished to fairly portray the situation, they would have featured all kinds of breeders - including other show breeders, working breeders and breeders who's dogs do it all. There are a lot of show breeders, as well as whole parent clubs out there who have done so much good for the advancement of health research and available testing in their chosen breed and that wasn't even really hit on. That is not just an unfair potrayal but it is sad that most people will never know about such people. Just because someone breeds show dogs or breeds purebreds doesn't mean they are anything like the handful of breeders featured in this "documentary". The impression most average viewers will take away is how horrible breeding purebred dogs is and how bad people who show their dogs are.

     (Hey - I wasn't even the one to point out that this "documentary" was helping to further the AR agenda! Wink )

    • Bronze

     I would not wish to paint all breeders as bad, show breeders yes.  To gain recognition in the show world they choose to create these mutant dogs.  The point remains that the breed standard - more correctly the way show people interpret the breed standard has created many, many problems.  Their constant need to exaggerate arbitrary traits. long ears, excessive skin, increasingly flat faces, bug eyed dogs, cockroach backs, curly tails, heads larger than birth canals, all have created a population of intentionally created inferior dogs.

     http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm

     We see the ridiculous lengths that bull terrier breeders have gone with the breed.

    Or compare the modern pug with that they used to look like

     

     

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    What I think is weird about using that photo as a 'look how light he was' is that look, that dog cannot even keep his tongue in his mouth when closed. (A known problem with the breed that yes, goes ALLL the way back!).

     Lighter bone doesn't necessarily make a dog any healthier. And it doesn't tell you anything aobut the dog's heart, patellas, eyes, soft palatte or anything else on the INSIDE of the dog. And that boy's head isn't significantly less extreme than the pugs I see at most shows. He has less wrinkle and a lower earset, but his muzzle's just as short.

     Pugs have never BEEN a working breed. They've been bred for a funny appearance, a darling temperament, and ideally, a long and healthy life for centuries. Shows may have exaggerated some features, but I don't honestly think the short muzzle that the show shrieked about was one that has been changed nearly as much as the amount of bone and coat the dog carries. 

     To someone looking for a pug, are you REALLY going to tell them "Ignore show breeders, just look for someone breeding for health and temperament?" Knowing that is the #1 claim of BYBs ("We breed ONLY for temperament, and look, our dogs are all healthy.";) and that breathing problems aren't something with anything like an OFA database where a puppy buyer can look for indepnedently verifiable test results. (And looking at the OFA database, only 35% of the pugs submitted for hips were normal, yet I've never known anyone with a symptomatic dog- only 7% of patellas are abnormal and I know a ton of people with pugs with patella problems. And there's no test at all for an extended soft palate which causes the dog to have noisy, abnormal breathing, and while any relatives you meet may be free of that, wouldn't you like to be able to see a pedigree full of clears for a health condition rather than just going on the one dog you CAN see?) I'm not saying there are not reputable non-show breeders in companion breeds, because I think they exist. (I bought Lizzie from a breeder who did not show, although that was more due to lack of access; when she was born, they were not eligable for showing anywhere but Rarities and IABCA, both of which are few, far between, and expensive for the level of judging expertise and competition.) But I think sorting through them is difficult for someone with a lot of dog experience, let alone someone who is NOT a dog person looking for a family pet, in a breed that is wildly popular.

     Terrierman is a jerk. He found something that gives him a power trip and has been riding it for years now. He's not ever bred a litter or done anything that convinces me that he actually has a SOLUTION for solving genetic problems in a breed. His main expertise in dogs is letting his dogs harass a relatively harmless (the amount of trouble groundhogs cause is really minimal, they're just not that big of a pest) to death. It's not a qiuck kill like a sighthound breaking the neck of a rabbit, it's not a retriever bringing in a dead duck. It's a terrier taking chunks out of a large rodent until it gives up and gets dragged out to the surface, where Patrick shoots it and takes a picture of it on his car before throwing it away. (I think he eats them once in a while, but there's not much on there.)  If he was using pit bulls and the animals he hunted were more photogenic, I suspect pepole would be screaming about animal cruelty.

     I'm not against hunting. I just don't think the access to small animals for my dogs to harass makes me an expert on breeding ANY dogs, let alone show dogs. I think his posts on hunting groundhogs are interesting and his observations as a nature fan are solid. (I've only ever hunted dove, quail, and duck, with labs, pointers, and Brittanys.) But I think he's just talking out his butt when it comes to observations about show dogs.