Educated a co-worker on pet stores

No, there is a difference and I believe we had a discussion on this when we talked about the reputable breeder rehoming their dogs after the dog has served its usefullness in breeding. Rescues do selfless act while reputable breeder....

That's a TOTALLY different topic about and even SMALLER group of people that re-home their own dogs b/c all they care about is conformation titles.  I personally do not support breeders who re-home dogs when they are done breeding and showing.  As evident by that other thread, obviously we don't all agree on whether or not re-homing is a responsible thing to do, so you cannot simply attribute re-homing to ALL breeders that are "responsible."  That's a matter of opinion.  Most reputable breeders, at least in the GSD community, don't really care about showing anyway and are far more concerned with working titles.  The GSD is a working breed and shouldn't randomly stop working at age 3 or whatever, they work until it's not healthy for them to work anymore and then they retire to the breeder's home.  Kenya's breeder's dog (Kenya's mom) competed until she was 11 and is now enjoying a slower life as a 13 year old house dog.

ORIGINAL: timsdat

I think that the 10 mil number is high.  Probably closer to 8 mil.
The latest survey I saw was that there were about 75 mil dogs in households according to the APPMA.
I saw a number from a pet sellers association that stated that about 500,000 dogs were sold in pet stores last year.   I would be willing to bet that most are C(on)KC dogs.
The AKC registered about 870,000 dogs last year.  I would be willing to bet that was about 1/2 the number eligible to be registered.
Now most of the dogs from pet stores I am sure weren't AKC registered so I doubt that there is much overlap between these 2 numbers.
I believe that the UKC and and other players are really small potatos when it comes to registration numbers except in breeds that aren't recognized by the AKC and I would bet that APBT is the major breed.

Help me out here by giving me your best guess or gut feeling as to who produces the 8 million puppies by breeder type.

Rescues do selfless act for the love of the dog.

I'm sorry, but that's just not true.
 
We are humans, and as humans, we have no idea what "selfless" means.  Some rescuers do it out of guilt, some out of anger, and quite a lot of rescuers brag about the rescuing they do.
 
I'd call that ego.
 
"I don't perpetuate the addition of unwanted dogs to the world because I rescue and don't support breeding."

Ego.
 
"I will only ever adopt, because there is no such thing as a responsible breeder with all these homeless dogs."
 
Preachy ego.
 
"I don't understand why people keep buying this unsocialized, inbred, purebred dogs, instead of adopting a mutt from the shelter."
 
Attempting to hide hurt ego when somebody decides they'd rather have a relatively predictable pet instead of  "taking a chance" on a rescue.
 
Taking a chance is all well and good for some, but not for others.
 
But don't try to tell me that rescue is completely selfless, because if there weren't SOMETHING in it for the human (even if it is just emotional satisfaction), we wouldn't do it.

ORIGINAL: glenmar
And you are right, there have been no outright attacks, simply a lot of inuendo.

I'm not sure what innuendo you're referring to. [] Did my exploration of statusizing, regarding reasons people might buy puppy mill/byb pups make you somehow feel accused of being selfish or status seeking?

ETA for clarity (bold, mine):

ORIGINAL: glenmar
Is there a reason that a person who has chosen a purebred is made to feel like somehow LESS of a dog lover? I see that repeatedly in this thread. I have owned many, many wonderful mixed breeds and I've owned purebreeds. Lets not forget that THREE of my purebreds came to me via foster care and never left.

I happen to LIKE the reliability of a well bred dog....knowing what to expect in size, temperment, trainability, etc. So I guess that makes me what? Selfish? Status seeking?

I believe that if folks truly KNEW where those cute little pups in the pet stores come from they would at least think twice before plunking down the plastic.

~~~~~~~


stormyknight, have you read the blog that timsdat posted?http://nathanwinograd.blogspot.com/ . Do you agree with the conclusions? Is your shelter no-kill? The AC here in Los Angeles is no-kill, but fits into Winograd's description of shelters that are no-kill with out the full program to back it up. There is no screening process, no education, no follow up, nothing. You just hand over a check and walk out with a dog. [&o]

ORIGINAL: Xeph

We are humans, and as humans, we have no idea what "selfless" means.  Some rescuers do it out of guilt, some out of anger, and quite a lot of rescuers brag about the rescuing they do.

I'd call that ego.

Let me introduce you to the phrase "you can't squeeze water out of a rock".  Good try though.

Help me out here by giving me your best guess or gut feeling as to who produces the 8 million puppies by breeder type.

I don't think I can give exact figures but I'd be willing to bet that at least 50% of dogs born are of indeterminate mix.  Therefore these are dogs where the person didn't S/N their dog and it got preg usually thru inattention not by decision of the owner.  I would not assign any sort of breeder label to these people as there wasn't an intention to breed it just happened.  Of the rest  I would guess that about 20% come from what I would call conscientious (people trying to do it right) breeders of the hobby variety, 10% from the commercial industry and the remaining 20% from the BYB type.

These are just WAG's by looking at shelter intake statistics and the breeding statistics I can gather.  Btw,  I have noticed that not very many puppies are brought into shelters therefore dogs born have a home and for whatever reason (I would bet that is usually behavior based) they are brought to shelters or let loose which eventually ends up with them in shelters.

 
That 50% figure of mixes could even be higher depending on which assumption you make to the following. 
 
I have seen many times where it is stated that 10-20% of dogs entering shelters are purebred so that can mean one of the following:
 
Dogs entering shelters is representative of the total dog population therefore 10-20% of the dog population is made up of purebreds or purebred owners get rid of their dogs at a lower population rate than mixed breed owners and the purebred percentage to the total population is higher.  I really don't know which is true so but I will stick to my belief that at least 50% of dogs born are mixed.
 
 
 
 

The AC here in Los Angeles is no-kill,

 
It is interesting you quote LA AC. 
Here is a interesting web page.  Don't know how much is spin or what but it is interesting to read.
 
[linkhttp://laanimalwatch.blogspot.com/]http://laanimalwatch.blogspot.com/[/link]
 
 

I'm not sure what innuendo you're referring to. Did my exploration of statusizing, regarding reasons people might buy puppy mill/byb pups make you somehow feel accused of being selfish or status seeking?

How about this Ixas_girl

o, do people buy from puppy mills and BYB's because they want easy access to status dogs (which is what some of us have been guessing at)? Because it's easier than adopting (which Sham and timsdat's link pointed to)? Because they are impulse buying in shopping malls (which others have suggested)? Do the reasons vary by region, like Liesje suggested? Is it exacerbated by lack of industry controls like some have discussed?

It seems pretty clear your view, I have to say that even if this is your view as a mod you should realize that you aren't "making people examine their motives" you are insulting and belittleing others. It's not the veiw that some have been guessing at. You are the only one saying this. You should know the people you moderate better IMO.

As with most things, if people really knew what they were doing they wouldn't do it. Most people don't really understand where the little puppy in the window came from, I certainly didn't until I was part of this forum and I'm hardly ignorant or uneducated. Most people want convenience and ease. That is unfortunately the american mentality for many things and it's not an easy undertaking to stop this mindset. Finding a reputable breeder isn't easy, I've just went throught that with Oliver. Education is the best start and not the PETA crap with horrific photos. You don't educate by insulting you loose your audience.

ORIGINAL: timsdat

I don't think I can give exact figures

Thats ok, just looking for a feel for the numbers.  Here is your post translated into numbers.

Reputable      20%         1,600,000
Commercial   10%            800,000
BYB              20%         1,600,000
Inintention      50%         4,000,000
  Total                           8,000,000

I think we can drop the "Inintention" from the discussion because clearly the owner is responsible for being careless.  Plus I think the remaining segments can somewhat control that by s/n agreements at the time of purchase.  But if the Inintention segment would be eliminated, which group would absorb the 4 million pups?

Are breeders either Reputable or Commercial or BYB or are there further segments within each.  For example, there are Commercial Breeders who follow the breeding standards of the Reputable, so they should be moved into the first category.  These Reputable also supply pups to Pet Shops so is it safe to say that Commercial supplies Pet Shops or do BYB do this too?
 
ETA:  Sorry Timsdat forgot to thank you for contributing and educating us.

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: glenmar
And you are right, there have been no outright attacks, simply a lot of inuendo.

I'm not sure what innuendo you're referring to. [] Did my exploration of statusizing, regarding reasons people might buy puppy mill/byb pups make you somehow feel accused of being selfish or status seeking?

You're not sure what innuendo is being referred to? Check out the bold.

Ixas_Girl I've known you to edit people for far less than that. ... I must say I'm mystified by this personal attack, even if hidden under a lot of some pretty obvious "innuendo".

In regards to the subject at hand, I think that purebred's from a reputable breeder are the way to go when someone is looking for something specific.

I'm going to a rep breeder for my next dog. When I got Missy, it was cause I couldn't leave her at the shelter. When I got Nikki it was with the hope of agility. One couch potato and 2 lexating patellas later I'm getting a purebred with parents that are health tested.

Do I feel bad about this? No. But, out of personal choice I will always have at least one shelter dog for every purebred I own. But that is purely my decision.

Are breeders either Reputable or Commercial or BYB or are there further segments within each. For example, there are Commercial Breeders who follow the breeding standards of the Reputable, so they should be moved into the first category. These Reputable also supply pups to Pet Shops so is it safe to say that Commercial supplies Pet Shops or do BYB do this too?

I am of the opinion that a breeder is either reputable (meaning ethical and responsible) or they are not.  IMO, a reputable breeder does NOT supply puppies to pet shops.  IMO, "commercial" breeders do not qualify as reputable because they are "commercial", breeding to make money.  I do believe that with dog ownership, it is not black and white b/c some people do things without knowing any better and did not have the intention to do harm and feel quilty when they learn their mistakes.  However, any person that decides to breed should have the added responsibility of being far more educated than JQP and thus IS responsible for either doing it correctly or not.  What each individual thinks constitutes a reputable/responsible/ethical breeder will differ, but I personally see breeding as far more black and white than just dog ownership in general.  This is what I personally think constitutes a reputable breeder (ALL conditions must be met)http://thebarkingdog.dutchbingo.net/breeder.htm#ethicalbreeder 

which group would absorb the 4 million pups?

 
I don't know whether any group besides commercial breeders could but then again who want to go in to the commercial breeding business and get called an evil money grubbing puppy miller that has no concern for dogs other than money.  You know that AR groups go on attack campaigns against commercial breeders from time to time.
 
I know that home based responsible breeders really can't for several reasons.
 
1.  Breeding of dogs has been so vilified that who would want to do it just starting out.
2.  It would in many cases they would compromise their own personals standard to the breed trying to breed more.
3.  In many cases increasing production could put them in a category were USDA standards for kennels have to be met and that is impossible in a home situation (think commercial farm operation) and most zoning laws won't allow it were the live.  It also their legal status within states depending on their laws.
4.  Since this is basically a family hobby they don't have the manpower to care for more puppies.
 
The thing is that every year less and less dogs enter shelters and are euth. even though the total population is growing.  In not too long there will be a shortage and already is in certain parts of the country.  Heck in S Florida they are importing pups from the Caribbean islands to meet the demand at shelters.
 
 

ORIGINAL: timsdat

which group would absorb the 4 million pups?

The thing is that every year less and less dogs enter shelters and are euth. even though the total population is growing.  In not too long there will be a shortage and already is in certain parts of the country.  Heck in S Florida they are importing pups from the Caribbean islands to meet the demand at shelters.

What an awesome "problem" to have!

I see this as a win/win, if true. Helping homeless dogs AND fulfilling the demand of people wanting pets.

What's the problem with this?

The problem I see in my area is that there are dogs being euthanized regularly which means maybe we need fewer puppymills/BYB's wouldn't ya say?


Edited: typo.

FWIW, I got my dog at a shelter, and the family dog of our childhood was smuggled out of a BKC litter in the UK in my step-brother's suitcoat pocket. I know little about the procurement of dogs, but I am disturbed by the number of poorly cared for animals in my community, and by the high occupancy rates in our shelters. I joined in this thread to learn what the issues are. So, thanks those of you who have taught me something. []

So far, I've learned that posters have a variety of opinions about why people buy puppy mill/byb pups: perception, preference, ignorance, non-standardized industry, marketing, ease, cost, access, papering. I have also heard that breeders don't want to be blamed and legislated because of this problem, and that other kinds of restrictive legislation are not popular. I've learned that shelter politics are more complicated than I could have imagined. [&o] I hear posters wishing the public understood the issues, and that the public should be different and more responsible, etc. I'm interested to see where the numeric breakdown of breeding volume is going. []

I'm perplexed by some posts, and wonder if I should also be learning that some posters feel there is no problem here to worry about at all. Is that the case?

Anyway, assuming there is a problem, even though I'm still not clear what causes it (maybe simply a little bit of what everyone suggested), besides advising our friends to only get dogs from reputable breeders or shelters, what else do people do to help? Sounds like some posters are pretty handy with research, and others are active in breed associations, and others do fostering to care for shelter animals. I've been impressing neighbor kids with my shelter mutt, to encourage them to adopt rather than breed their own intact dogs.

timsdat, funny you should post that link! I was struck when I first read the LAAS site, to see Boks responding to criticisms in his blog, and in a FAQ or rumors. [sm=eek.gif]

http://www.laanimalservices.blogspot.com/
http://www.laanimalservices.com/info_rumors.htm

So let me get this straight, some of you on this board support and promote the purchase of pets from pet stores?

Some of you think that those who seek to breed in a responsible manner, should not?

Some of you think that those who desire a certain amount of predictability (in temperment, size, possible health risks) in a dog shouldn't have that made available to them?

And lastly, some of you even stoop to suggest that because a person wishes for the predictability of a purebred, for whatever reason, said person is an elitist?

I'm glad I'm not narrow minded.