Educated a co-worker on pet stores

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

how can someone involved in rescue support puppy mills as a viable option for potential dog owners? we (as responsible dog owners) should be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

I don't know anyone involved in rescues that supports puppy mills.  Puppy mills exist and the store that distribute the puppies may be just a few miles drive away.  That makes it a viable option for potential dog owners. 

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

how can someone involved in rescue support puppy mills as a viable option for potential dog owners? we (as responsible dog owners) should be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Self-justification?

ORIGINAL: DPU

I don't know anyone involved in rescues that supports puppy mills.

ORIGINAL: DPU
Until I get the puppy that I want (the demand) I will keep going to the lesser responsible puppy supplier.

your words?

regardless of the proximity of a puppy store to a potential dog owner, i will never support puppy mill dogs as a viable option.

ORIGINAL: Laurelin_429
I guess what I STILL don't get is why you'd go to a commercial breeder. If you just want a good companion, then why not a shelter dog? If you're wanting a companion with certain traits or one to show or work, then wouldn't you want to go to a breeder that actually CARES about the dogs they produce, instead of mass producing them, no matter how 'good' their credentials are?

Yes, that's exactly what I was asking! [] People who want quality dogs, elite competitors, athletes and workers, will go to a good breeder whose lines produce the specific type of dog they want. So what is is about purebreds that sends all the other people to pet stores, rather than shelters? People want purebreds, but why do they want one if they don't care enough to look into the standards, practices and genetics involved in creating a solid and healthy purebred pup?

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

Any ideas?

the same ideas that have been expressed by many people on this very thread... educate people about the horrors of puppy mills and encourage people not to buy from pet stores. that seems to be the only way to me. it is economics, surely an accountant would understand that.

But the #1 reason I've heard thoughtful people give for why they buy dogs from pet stores, is "to rescue them." Knowing how bad it is doesn't change that, right?


timsdat, DPU, Thanks for explaining the numbers.

Sham, Yeah, I wondered about some of that, too. Interesting analysis.

timsdat, that's disturbing, a black market for dogs. [:@] I wonder if other countries have problems with black market dogs.
Anyway, I'll write Boks and suggest he send some LA dogs your way since you folks have a shortage! [][]

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

it is economics, surely an accountant would understand that.

As an Accountant I know debits are on the left and credits are on the right.  Debits = Credits.  A debit increases assest and decreases a libility.  A debit increases expenses and decreases revenues.  A credit decreases assets and increases liability.  A credit decreases expenses and increases revenues.  Always, for the books to balanced, debits must equal credits. 

How can you advocate a prohibition and not provide a substitute for that prohibition.  Makes no sense to me.

i am glad they were able to fill a void, and i am sure they were living up to usda standards. they were commercial breeders afterall.

 
I seriously doubt that based on the description.  If they were a licensed USDA breeder they wouldn't be keeping the animals like that..
 
Here are the regs.
[linkhttp://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/awr.shtml]http://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_welfare/awr.shtml[/link]
 
 
 
Btw,  According to the USDA here is the inspection frequency.
 
Q. Why doesn#%92t USDA conduct inspections more often?
A. The AWA requires that USDA inspect research facilities at least once per year. For other facilities, AC uses a risk-based inspection system. Each facility is rated as low, moderate, or high risk. Moderaterisk facilities would be inspected about once per year; low-risk less often; high-risk more often. No matter what the facility#%92s rating, inspectors have the option of inspecting as often as they feel necessary and resources allow. This system allows inspectors to focus their attention on facilities that need assistance coming into compliance with the AWA or need to be monitored more often, so that they can conduct inspections that are more in-depth instead of just more frequent. Inspectors will also follow up on legitimate complaints from private citizens.

 
Here is information about the inspection.
 
Compliance Inspections
The U.S. Department of Agriculture#%92s Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS) administers the Animal Welfare Act (AWA). This law provides for the humane care and treatment of animals bred for commercial sale, transported in commerce, used in biomedical research, and exhibited to the public.
APHIS#%92 Animal Care (AC) program enforces the AWA primarily through inspections of regulated facilities. To ensure that compliance with the AWA is continually maintained, all facilities that keep animals regulated under the Act must be licensed or registered with APHIS. AC personnel conduct unannounced inspections of every licensed or registered facility in the country.
When inspecting a facility, AC inspectors thoroughly observe and document in inspection reports all areas of care and treatment covered by the AWA. APHIS requires all owners and managers of licensed and registered facilities to comply with the following standards:
 
 
All this information can be found at:
 
[linkhttp://www.aphis.usda.gov/subjects/animal_welfare/]http://www.aphis.usda.gov/subjects/animal_welfare/[/link]
 
 

ORIGINAL: Ixas_girl

ORIGINAL: Laurelin_429
I guess what I STILL don't get is why you'd go to a commercial breeder. If you just want a good companion, then why not a shelter dog? If you're wanting a companion with certain traits or one to show or work, then wouldn't you want to go to a breeder that actually CARES about the dogs they produce, instead of mass producing them, no matter how 'good' their credentials are?

Yes, that's exactly what I was asking! [] People who want quality dogs, elite competitors, athletes and workers, will go to a good breeder whose lines produce the specific type of dog they want. So what is is about purebreds that sends all the other people to pet stores, rather than shelters? People want purebreds, but why do they want one if they don't care enough to look into the standards, practices and genetics involved in creating a solid and healthy purebred pup?

 
I think it basically just boils down to the fact that someone sees a dog they like SOMEWHERE - tv, friend's dog, celebrities dog, etc- and they want one and they want one NOW.  No one wants to wait.  Most people don't see dogs as that big of a committment.  It's a throw away society that wants what it wants when it wants and when it doesn't want the problems associated with it will dump it off on another person.

But the #1 reason I've heard thoughtful people give for why they buy dogs from pet stores, is "to rescue them." Knowing how bad it is doesn't change that, right?

perhaps we should just give up then?

i think people who think that way should consider this.... is it rescue if one dog is saved while thousands still suffer?

maybe those same people should also consider this, why would you patronize a store that is known to sell puppy mill dogs at all?

I don't think the numbers really work in this case. This isn't a simple supply and demand. The unintentional breedings are not due to a demand. They are accidents.

 
That is true while they aren't bred for demand the result of the breeding ends up in the supply chain.  They are part of the total picture. 
 
I believe that aggressive low/no cost voluntary neutering programs would go a long way in reducing the accidental breedings.  Heck even offer a cash reward to bring in the dog to be neutered.  It might cost more in the beginning but in the long term expense would be lower.  At the same time anyone who brings in a dog to be neutered give them a free microchip at the same time.  That would also solve problems with dogs at large and who the owner is.  I thing the the carrot approach is much better than the stick with fines/regulations etc.
 
 

How can you advocate a prohibition and not provide a substitute for that prohibition.

i offer several... the local shelter, the humane society, the aspca, rescues, and responsible breeders.

if you are turned down by all those, perhaps you need to do a little soul searching as to whether you are cut out to be a dog owner.

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

i offer several... the local shelter, the humane society, the aspca, rescues, and responsible breeders.

if you are turned down by all those, perhaps you need to do a little soul searching as to whether you are cut out to be a dog owner.

 
Sorry, just not enough dogs available in those groups to satisfy demand,  may be not enough to satify the demand of responsible dog owners.

I think there are.  If everyone would get a dog and KEEP it.  I can't tell you how many people I know that get mutliple dogs a year or two years and end up getting rid of them for one reason or another.  Once again, it's an owner problem and not a breeder problem.
 
There are TONS of adoptable dogs in shelters and rescues and a lot of breeders to talk to about getting a dog.  Heck, there's even all different kinds of breeders that specialize in different traits or sports or work or show.  If you want a dog right this second, no you may not find one right away.  But if you research and wait, you will find one soon enough. 
 
Plus, you'll more than likely still have oops litters that will be sold or given away to consider. 
 
I dunno, I can't forsee a shortage of dogs in the near future with all the current practises going on.  Why don't we worry about the shortage of dogs when we get there and right now focus on trying to be strict about breeding practises so more dogs aren't sent to death row to die?

ORIGINAL: cyclefiend2000

But the #1 reason I've heard thoughtful people give for why they buy dogs from pet stores, is "to rescue them." Knowing how bad it is doesn't change that, right?

perhaps we should just give up then?

i think people who think that way should consider this.... is it rescue if one dog is saved while thousands still suffer?

maybe those same people should also consider this, why would you patronize a store that is known to sell puppy mill dogs at all?

Yeah, I agree, people should do a lotta stuff[], but how do you motivate that? I think educating about the horrors is good. But if people are buying animals selfishly and thoughtlessly ... or with the best of intentions, but a little short sighted, as you say, then what are better ways to motivate? That's what I'm digging for. I'd be happy to advocate on this issue, but I haven't seen something call out to me as really helpful, yet.

Seems the goal is to motivate, inspire, and excite people to either buy reputably or rescue dogs. Would it be more effective to spend energy promoting reputable breeders and shelters?

For example, maybe agility and obedience demonstrations on school grounds, with mutts, to show how high performance (desirable) they can be. Or, have open houses at reputable breeders' places for people to learn just how important and rigorous good breeding and training are. Or, an ad campaign with sexy stars posing with mutts. Or, bugging talent agencies to place mutts in more tv, commercial, and movie spots. Or running ads with athlete dogs, showing their vet bills, training schedules, and travel expenses. [] Ya know, so it becomes real, not like buying nike's because the athletes look cool.

What really motivates people? What makes them want something. Isn't it useful to look to that in seeking solutions?

(I've designed a college course that brings students into an SPCA shelter to learn about the care of stray, feral and rescued animals. The students will propose design projects to enhance animals' experiences at the shelter. The students will be hearing from feral cat TNR folks, animal cops, AC officers, shelter workers ... Some of the animals at the SPCA are recovered from inhumane pet shops (cats, dogs, lizards, birds ... the animal cops take 'em all). I've done a fair bit of research on shelters, so thanks for help in understanding the breeding end.)

Laurelin,

[] It's a long thread, I don't know if you got a chance to see this great post from mrv, agrees with some of what you've said:

ORIGINAL: mrv

I would suggest Pet Stores (those that sell puppies and other animals) exist because they make money.

Some possible reasons they make money:
People are impulse buyers and dont really want to or do not attempt to do research.
People are influence by what they have seen (movies, demos etc) which give them the idea they want a specific breed.
People believe the advertizing hype of "hybrids" which are really cross bred dogs.
People do not know that the 1,000.00 price tag on a pet store puppy probably started with a 75.00 to 100.00 dollar payment to the "breeder" (maybe we should call them producers since they certainly arent breeders in my opinion).
People do not know that the housing methods used in pet stores foster the transimission of disease and often interfere significantly with house training issues.
People buy based on looks (what is cute).

If you took away unintentional breedings I think the supply/demand portion of it would actually balance out quite nicely in the end.

Are you factoring in cheap pups coming from other countries?