Dogs vs Children

I live in the land of "educated" & working Moms, wealthy families, and let me tell you how much I hate the kids around here. They're totally oblivious to everything going on around them, they ride their bicycles in the street and don't move when there's a car right up on them, they're RUDE, they think they should have everything handed to them on a silver platter... Then you run into the kids who probably come from Illegal parents, and they're polite, they're aware of what's going on around them, they're humble, and just infinitely more pleasant to be around than the kids from most of the wealthier families. And yes, a lot of their parents are probably dirt poor. They're probably on welfare and food stamps. We probably all pay for a lot of their food and clothes. They might have 7 brothers and sisters. Is that really so bad?

I am glad that happens THERE because that is not how kids are here in Michigan.  Kids of the uneducated and underemployed around here are dirty little brats.  Kids from educated gainfully employed families tend to be polite and actually clean!  I do agree some of the migrant farm workers' kids are hard workers and quiet...however (honestly) most of the time that is because they don't speak/understand English. 

Do you not agree that couples shouldn't take having children lightly?  Have kids is not a right of all couples.  If you can't feed them don't breed them. 

I just read the other day that you can take money off your college loan for each child you have.  HUH?? WHAT? Why not take more off college loans if you get a promotion...or get this...DECIDE not to have children??

I'm definitely not saying everyone should breed, nor am I saying people should have more kids than they can afford, I'm just saying there's worse things than kids who grow up poor, and I'd rather my tax dollars went to them than a lot of other places.

ORIGINAL: chelsea_b

Well yes, because crazy as this sounds, I don't particularly enjoy paying for other peoples' children.

I'd rather pay for food and clothes for kids than a needless, uber expensive war, or $100+ hammers for the White House. [8|][]

That's fine.  You can give your money to a private charity then.  Sorry, but I have an issue being *forced* to throw my hard earned money at people who need government help for their kids, but own horses (all of them boarded, BTW), smoke $150 worth of cigarettes a month, and remodel their homes while collecting welfare checks (a former coworker of mine did this).

There is another couple I know who are unmarried and have 2 kids.  She works, but he seems to have a little trouble holding down jobs that are so simple that either of my dogs could be clicker trained to do them in a day.  Therefore, she lies on the welfare forms and says that she is a single mom.  Our tax dollars are not only going to support kids, but able bodied, but worthless fathers as well.

ORIGINAL: sillysally
I have an issue being *forced* to throw my hard earned money at people who need government help for their kids.

I feel the same way. My husband's sister's husband comes from a 3rd generation welfare family. He was the first legit. child in three generations, and his sister was a grandmother at 36 or 37.

His niece had a son at 17, can't hold a job, has no sense of responsibility, lives with her mom and doesn't care for her son -- so much so that he is slower to develop mentally, compared to other children his age, because he never got the right stimulation in his first years.

It's terribly sad, but I hate that my money pays to continue this family's tradition of not getting an education, job or doing anything productive with their lives.

Meanwhile, DH and I are working hard to pay our mortgage, car payments, save for retirement and our unborn kid's college education fund, etc.

Money I should be putting toward my future is instead going to these deadbeats welfare checks so they can buy another carton of cancer sticks.

As someone who has been on welfare and found it so demoralising that I only lasted a week before I decided I wasn't so desperate I needed to sacrifice my sense of self-worth, I have to say that a lot of the people that get dragged into that system genuinely need a little assistance through no fault of their own. At least in this country they do. But the welfare system puts you through such loops to get your money that it just erodes your confidence and squashes you flat. Those people would rather see a new graduate working casual behind a checkout than give them a little time to get a permanent, full-time job. The system is such that the folks that want to bludge off it will bludge off it no matter what you do, and putting in all these loops only serves to make it harder, more frustrating, and more demoralising for the people who genuinely need it and intend to be on it only as long as they have to.

Bludgers are inevitable. I say let them bludge. I pick fights I can win and I'm happy to support the few people out there that don't want anything more from life than to sponge off taxpayer money and pop out the kiddies if it means the folks that need a little assistance every now and then get it and don't have to lower themselves to the same level as the bludgers in the process.

I'd also like to point out that for some people, having kids is the ultimate success and ultimate fulfillment. Who are we to deny that of them if that's what will make them happy?

I'd also like to point out that for some people, having kids is the ultimate success and ultimate fulfillment. Who are we to deny that of them if that's what will make them happy?

 
Well golly gee, my ultimate sense of fulfillment won't be reached until I can successfully ride Grand Prix dressage.  Does that mean that you're going to buy me the $100,000 horse I need and provide all of my training so that I can reach that goal?  It's what will make me happy, so who are you to deny me that?
 
Sheesh.  Just because you WANT something in life doesn't mean you get it.  Just because someone might WANT children doesn't mean they should have them if they can't provide for them.

I'd also like to point out that for some people, having kids is the ultimate success and ultimate fulfillment. Who are we to deny that of them if that's what will make them happy?

 
Wow...I would love to pay off my college loans and buy a house but you know what..that just isn't possible right now (there are no government subsidies or breaks on college loans for a single childless women).  If having kids is the "ultimate success" for someone I feel sorry for them.  Why should having children DEFINE you as a person?  Isn't it YOUR job to make something of yourself before you have kids.  I have seen many marriage fall apart after the children are born...that is because the couple didn't discover themselves before the child.  It is sad for the kids.  I think my lucky stars everyday that I didn't have children with my ex-husband.  [:@][:@] 

ORIGINAL: corvus


I'd also like to point out that for some people, having kids is the ultimate success and ultimate fulfillment. Who are we to deny that of them if that's what will make them happy?

That's fine with me, as long as they are not wanting *me* to pay for their little bundles of ultimate success and fulfillment.  If one cannot afford kids, one should not have them.

I apologize, I have a sinus infection and while I am passionate, I think I'm also not in the best state of mind to express msyself.  

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma
We can all whine about our sister's cousin ex-boyfriend who knows this chick who abuses the welfare system horribly

The only thing that upset me about your post, is the way you referenced mine. We are each entitled to our own opinion, and instead of whining generally about people that abuse the system, I offered a real example. Apologies if that came across as whining - I am not whining about this family, I am flat out angry that my money is being spent (and wasted in my opinion) on people who abuse the system.

Personally, I think people should "think global, act local" and take responsibility for those around them that need help. I'd rather personally fund the education of my poor as dirt neighbor's kid because his parents can't afford to send him to college than pay welfare. Why? Because his parents each work 3 jobs and grown their own food to get by. I respect their work ethic and the fact that they are teaching their children to be self-sufficient.

That is how I was raised, and in my family it is not uncommon to pay for someone else's college education - inside or outside of our family. My uncle is currently putting his housekeeper's son and one of my cousins through college.
We'd just prefer to control where our money goes, and think that should be our right.

ORIGINAL: Dog_ma


I defend dogs and the needs of dogs on parenting sites, and I will sure as hell support kids here. I have a kid, btw, and while my pets are my children too they do not even come close to requiring the amount of time and energy that my daughter does.  Pets are kids-lite.  I find no fault with people who don't wish to have children, or people who wish to have 10.  Do what makes you happy!  But it is in your own self-interest to worry about the children in our society, whether or not you like kids.

 
I absolutely agree with you on this. I have kids and dogs (and cats for that matter), and I can't imagine ever being without either.

It's interesting.  DH came from a family of 8 kids.  The only one in his family to work was his father, and that was in a blue collar job.  They did qualify for government assistance, but refused to take it.  They felt that it was their decision to have 8 kids, and therefore those kids were *their* responsibility, not anyone elses.  They made due with one car, shopped at second hand stores for the kid's clothes, found hand-me-downs from friends, only ate meals at home, etc.  If the kids wanted better clothes, a computer, etc, they went out and got a job.  DH got his first job at 14 husking corn and as soon as he was old enough to get a "real" job started working as a dish washer.

If people want to have 20 kids, fine.  However, I think it is extremely unfair for my husband and I to have to pay for the decision (because having and keeping a child *is* a choice) that they made.  We always go on and on about personal responsibility with our pets, why is this not just as important with kids?

I do see where you're coming from, and I do struggle with the concept b/c I don't enjoy being forced to pay for xyz government program either. I don't necessarily think it's fair, but I think the financial/social impact of not helping irresponsible parents would be worse than the financial impact of helping. I do think that we as a society need to stress "responsible breeding" with regard to ourselves just as much as with dogs. It is not the childs fault though that the parent is a dead beat any more than it is the dogs fault that it has an irresponsible owner. And then there are the responsible people who have fallen on hard times....maybe that is a job better left to private charities, but I am not convinced that charities can do th job alone.